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Will Duffy YouTube Debate v CJ Borns Open Theism 11/23/19

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  • #16
    Originally posted by way 2 go View Post

    not lying , just pointing out the fact that open theism has God guessing
    You are a liar. I am an Open Theist and I'm telling you God does not guess. I do not believe it, no open theist I've ever read believes it and nothing that we do believe can be rightly construed to be God guessing unless the person so construing is intentionally mischaracterizing the doctrine and making a straw man argument. In short - lying about it.

    here is a guess in the open theism view , God may have an angel pour out his vial
    & the people may react the way God is guessing they will
    open theism isn't sure as the future is open
    and your point 3 admits this fact

    Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial onto the sun. And it was given to him to burn men with fire.
    Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, He having authority over these plagues. And they did not repent in order to give Him glory.
    And this proves what I just said. This is nothing more than a straw man argument created from an intentional mischaracterization of what we believe and teach.

    First of all, this is not what it means to guess but that's an ancillary point which I hesitate to even make because it tacitly grants your premise that "God may have an angel pour out his vial
    & the people may react the way God is guessing they will". That entire premise is flatly false. God is flat out not guessing about how they will react - period. There is no definition of the word "guess" that would make that a true statement.

    It is however quite completely true that there is a possibility that God will not punish Israel as per Revelation 16 (and elsewhere) just as it is also possible that God may begin His punishments and then stop depending on how those being punished react to the punishment. But this is not a matter of guessing, it is a matter of love, wisdom, justice and mercy (yes, both justice AND mercy).

    God Himself - GOD HIMSELF - said that He may or may not punish/bless any nation that He says that He going to punish/bless.

    Jeremiah 18:7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

    Now read that passage! Don't just skip over it. Read it! THAT is the open theist's belief concerning any predictive prophesy of God's concerning either the punish or blessing of Israel or any other nation. It's not one bit more complicated than that. If you do evil, God will not bless you and if you repent God will not punish you. Easy! Even a child can understand that!

    So, the question now is, will you repent of your lies or will you persist in them?

    Clete
    sigpic
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Clete View Post
      You are a liar. I am an Open Theist and I'm telling you God does not guess. I do not believe it, no open theist I've ever read believes it and nothing that we do believe can be rightly construed to be God guessing unless the person so construing is intentionally mischaracterizing the doctrine and making a straw man argument. In short - lying about it.
      a Calvinist does not believe God is stone idol but that is what open theist say Calvinist believe every time
      do open theist say God is guessing, of course not , but it is the natural conclusion of what open theist teach


      And this proves what I just said. This is nothing more than a straw man argument created from an intentional mischaracterization of what we believe and teach.
      not mischaracterization but natural conclusion

      First of all, this is not what it means to guess but that's an ancillary point which I hesitate to even make because it tacitly grants your premise that "God may have an angel pour out his vial
      & the people may react the way God is guessing they will". That entire premise is flatly false. God is flat out not guessing about how they will react - period. There is no definition of the word "guess" that would make that a true statement.

      It is however quite completely true that there is a possibility that God will not punish Israel as per Revelation 16 (and elsewhere) just as it is also possible that God may begin His punishments and then stop depending on how those being punished react to the punishment. But this is not a matter of guessing, it is a matter of love, wisdom, justice and mercy (yes, both justice AND mercy).

      sooo not guessing but then you say could be guessing .



      God Himself - GOD HIMSELF - said that He may or may not punish/bless any nation that He says that He going to punish/bless.

      Jeremiah 18:7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

      Now read that passage! Don't just skip over it. Read it! THAT is the open theist's belief concerning any predictive prophesy of God's concerning either the punish or blessing of Israel or any other nation. It's not one bit more complicated than that. If you do evil, God will not bless you and if you repent God will not punish you. Easy! Even a child can understand that!

      So, the question now is, will you repent of your lies or will you persist in them?

      Clete
      no lies to repent of .

      God is prophesying the punishment and the unrepentance
      and you an open theist say God is guessing that he may or may not punish & they may or may not repent.

      Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial onto the sun. And it was given to him to burn men with fire.
      Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, He having authority over these plagues. And they did not repent in order to give Him glory.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by way 2 go View Post

        a Calvinist does not believe God is stone idol but that is what open theist say Calvinist believe every time
        Not every time but when we do it is not only based upon but almost always explained that a God that cannot change in any way whatsoever is describing a stone idol not a living, dynamic, loving God who becomes a human man so as to die and then rise from the dead.

        In other words, it is not an intentional, made up out of whole clothe, total straw man argument where we actually are trying to make people believe that Calvinists ACTUALLY have idols made of rock in the living rooms and at their churches.

        What you are doing is something entirely different. You actually want people to believe that open theism teaches that God has no idea what anyone is going to do and that it's little more than a comic coin toss whether His prophecies will come to pass or not while in reality open theists actually believe the opposite and take the bible to mean precisely what it says that calls the end from the beginning.

        do open theist say God is guessing, of course not , but it is the natural conclusion of what open theist teach
        No, it absolutely is not!

        When you make plans to go on vacation and you book reservations on a cruse ship for next June and then in February the ship you thought you were going to Belize on ends up catching fire and sinking to the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico, is it in ANY WAY accurate to say that you had been guessing about which ship you were going to be taking the cruise on?

        Now that's an example from a human perspective but that only strengthens the argument because we humans don't have access to 1% of the information that God has nor do we have the power to protect cruise ships from accidental fires and sinking the way God could if He chose to do so and yet it STILL is not accurate to call what we were doing "guessing". That just isn't what it means to guess!

        What's more is that YOU KNOW that this isn't what it means to guess and you make the accusation anyway and that's why it's a lie.

        not mischaracterization but natural conclusion
        Liar

        sooo not guessing but then you say could be guessing .
        No! The potential for circumstances to change and therefore your intended plan of action to change with it is not at all what it means to be guessing and you know it!

        no lies to repent of .
        Saying it doesn't make it so!

        God is prophesying the punishment and the unrepentance
        No, He isn't! He says IF not WHEN. IF the repent then so will He. IF they do not repent then the punishment will commence as prophesied.

        Jonah prophesied that Nineveh would be destroyed in forty days. The entire prophesy is I think something like five words in the original language. There was no mention of repentance to mention of potential reprieve. God did NOT prophesy both the punishment and the repentance as you claim but only the destruction of Nineveh in forty days. Forty-one days later, Nineveh is still standing and thriving and in better shape than ever before because God did not do that which He said He would do in response to Nineveh's repentance.

        Jonah 3:10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.

        and you an open theist say God is guessing that he may or may not punish & they may or may not repent.
        You are a liar!

        I have never said any such thing. God absolutely was not guessing and totally would have completely destroyed Nineveh just as He said He would do but didn't because and only because they repented which even Jonah fully expected them to do which is why he refused to go in the first place.

        Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial onto the sun. And it was given to him to burn men with fire.
        Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, He having authority over these plagues. And they did not repent in order to give Him glory.
        This prophecy is under the same sort of conditions as the Nineveh prophecy. If Israel repents then so will God.



        The entire book of Jonah is dedicated to telling the story of but one of several biblical prophesies that did not come to pass. You say you reject Calvinism and Open Theism so that leaves little else except some form of Arminianism but when it comes to prophesy and God's foreknowledge, there's not a dimes worth of difference between them and the Calvinists, so how do you explain the prophesies in the bible that did not come to pass?
        sigpic
        "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Derf View Post

          I don't think the victory should be awarded based on who's the better speaker. CJ spoke well, but he didn't understand the consequences of his own theology.
          Debates are very often won or lost based on how one speaker is perceived over the other.

          That may not be the ideal but it is reality. The fact is people are emotional, social and mostly irrational creatures. As such, how one presents themselves to the audience in this style of debate is at least as important as the substance of what is being said.
          sigpic
          "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Clete View Post

            Debates are very often won or lost based on how one speaker is perceived over the other.

            That may not be the ideal but it is reality. The fact is people are emotional, social and mostly irrational creatures. As such, how one presents themselves to the audience in this style of debate is at least as important as the substance of what is being said.
            Good points, Clete. You should use this wisdom in your discussions with way 2 go.
            Last edited by Derf; December 16, 2019, 11:34 AM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by way 2 go View Post

              a Calvinist does not believe God is stone idol but that is what open theist say Calvinist believe every time
              do open theist say God is guessing, of course not , but it is the natural conclusion of what open theist teach




              not mischaracterization but natural conclusion




              sooo not guessing but then you say could be guessing .




              no lies to repent of .

              God is prophesying the punishment and the unrepentance
              and you an open theist say God is guessing that he may or may not punish & they may or may not repent.

              Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial onto the sun. And it was given to him to burn men with fire.
              Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, He having authority over these plagues. And they did not repent in order to give Him glory.
              I agree with Clete that open theists, for the most part, don't think God is guessing. In the case of prophecying unrepentance, which is a valid argument, I think I could almost do as well, as I watch the United States devolve into not just a non-Christian nation, but an anti-Christian nation. And God would have much, much, MUCH more knowledge and foresight into what men will do under the circumstances He is preparing than I ever could.

              Rev 16:9 doesn't say "everybody" blasphemed God. Some might actually repent, but it is very likely many will not. In fact, I can imagine firefighters, for instance, trying to fight out-of-control fires in California recently, blaspheming often, specifically using the name of Jesus Christ, but specifically NOT calling on Him to help. My daughter volunteers as a firefighter, and she can attest that firefighters don't have the cleanest language.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Derf View Post

                Good points, Clete. You should you this wisdom in your discussions with way 2 go.
                Every word we have both said is all still here for everyone to read. I'm not here to persuade anyone. That ended a great many years ago. In fact, it's getting harder and harder to justify being here at all. The reason I'm still here is a combination of force of habit and something of an innate desire/hunger for substantive discussion about theological issues. I just keep hoping that I'll find someone willing and able to scratch that itch. It does occur on rare occasion but those occurrences have gotten so to be so few and far between that I've pretty much given up hope. I do however always begin any exchange with substance and respect in the hopes that this new discussion will be different. It almost never is anymore.

                Bottom line is that I really couldn't care less how I'm received here. Those who I care anything about know who I am and my reputation is safe with them, everyone else can take a flying leap for all I care. If anyone here is offended by my posts then I suggest that they don't read them.
                sigpic
                "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Derf View Post

                  I agree with Clete that open theists, for the most part, don't think God is guessing.
                  For the most part?

                  Can you cite a single example of any open theist who has even said that God guesses, never mind one who actually believes it?

                  In the case of prophecying unrepentance, which is a valid argument, I think I could almost do as well, as I watch the United States devolve into not just a non-Christian nation, but an anti-Christian nation. And God would have much, much, MUCH more knowledge and foresight into what men will do under the circumstances He is preparing than I ever could.
                  It's cool that you say this. I was just thinking the exact same thing this last Saturday on my way home from work.

                  Rev 16:9 doesn't say "everybody" blasphemed God. Some might actually repent, but it is very likely many will not. In fact, I can imagine firefighters, for instance, trying to fight out-of-control fires in California recently, blaspheming often, specifically using the name of Jesus Christ, but specifically NOT calling on Him to help. My daughter volunteers as a firefighter, and she can attest that firefighters don't have the cleanest language.
                  I think that it is even more certain that "very likely". There are going to be supernatural things happening all over the place. The biblical record shows that this is pretty much the surest way to make people who already hate God start gnashing at Him with their teeth. In addition to that, you'll have the antichrist directly in play drawing people away by his false miracles which people tend to breathlessly flock toward. It's just not a pretty picture. Just as it was in the days of Noah, people aren't going to repent in mass. Those that do and are killed physically will find themselves in a better place and those that don't will, with their death, leap from the frying pan into the fire.

                  Clete
                  sigpic
                  "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Clete View Post

                    For the most part?

                    Can you cite a single example of any open theist who has even said that God guesses, never mind one who actually believes it?
                    No. But neither can I say categorically that none ever says that.


                    It's cool that you say this. I was just thinking the exact same thing this last Saturday on my way home from work.

                    I think that it is even more certain that "very likely". There are going to be supernatural things happening all over the place. The biblical record shows that this is pretty much the surest way to make people who already hate God start gnashing at Him with their teeth. In addition to that, you'll have the antichrist directly in play drawing people away by his false miracles which people tend to breathlessly flock toward. It's just not a pretty picture. Just as it was in the days of Noah, people aren't going to repent in mass. Those that do and are killed physically will find themselves in a better place and those that don't will, with their death, leap from the frying pan into the fire.

                    Clete
                    And IF (big if here) God needed to learn from His experience with mankind before the flood to help with His predictions in Rev 16, then perhaps He was remembering the people cursing Him as the heavy rains began to fall and the waters began to rise, or as the brimstone began to fall in Sodom. Rev 9 actually seems like a softening of God's animus toward the unrighteous, compared with the flood (they had no recognition of anything starting to happen, according to Jesus, Matt 24:38), and compared with the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, because it sounds like there is some opportunity for repentance in Rev 16.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Clete View Post
                      Not every time but when we do it is not only based upon but almost always explained that a God that cannot change in any way whatsoever is describing a stone idol not a living, dynamic, loving God who becomes a human man so as to die and then rise from the dead.

                      In other words, it is not an intentional, made up out of whole clothe, total straw man argument where we actually are trying to make people believe that Calvinists ACTUALLY have idols made of rock in the living rooms and at their churches.
                      got it
                      Calvinists make god out to be like a stone idol
                      & open theist make god out to be like a man & guessing


                      What you are doing is something entirely different. You actually want people to believe that open theism teaches that God has no idea what anyone is going to do and that it's little more than a comic coin toss whether His prophecies will come to pass or not while in reality open theists actually believe the opposite and take the bible to mean precisely what it says that calls the end from the beginning.
                      its open theism , anything could happen


                      When you make plans to go on vacation and you book reservations on a cruse ship for next June and then in February the ship you thought you were going to Belize on ends up catching fire and sinking to the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico, is it in ANY WAY accurate to say that you had been guessing about which ship you were going to be taking the cruise on?

                      Now that's an example from a human perspective but that only strengthens the argument because we humans don't have access to 1% of the information that God has nor do we have the power to protect cruise ships from accidental fires and sinking the way God could if He chose to do so and yet it STILL is not accurate to call what we were doing "guessing". That just isn't what it means to guess!

                      What's more is that YOU KNOW that this isn't what it means to guess and you make the accusation anyway and that's why it's a lie.
                      open theist say God has all the information but is still guessing what might happen


                      Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial onto the sun. And it was given to him to burn men with fire.
                      Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, He having authority over these plagues. And they did not repent in order to give Him glory.




                      No! The potential for circumstances to change and therefore your intended plan of action to change with it is not at all what it means to be guessing and you know it!
                      circumstances change and therefore your intended plan of action change
                      means you were guessing you guessed wrong


                      Saying it doesn't make it so!
                      open theist portray God as guessing ,it is what they do

                      No, He isn't! He says IF not WHEN. IF the repent then so will He. IF they do not repent then the punishment will commence as prophesied.
                      actually God says "they did not repent" it is the open theist that adds the uncertainty , guessing.

                      Jonah prophesied that Nineveh would be destroyed in forty days. The entire prophesy is I think something like five words in the original language. There was no mention of repentance to mention of potential reprieve. God did NOT prophesy both the punishment and the repentance as you claim but only the destruction of Nineveh in forty days. Forty-one days later, Nineveh is still standing and thriving and in better shape than ever before because God did not do that which He said He would do in response to Nineveh's repentance.

                      Jonah 3:10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.
                      so the open theist view is God was guessing

                      I have never said any such thing. God absolutely was not guessing and totally would have completely destroyed Nineveh just as He said He would do but didn't because and only because they repented which even Jonah fully expected them to do which is why he refused to go in the first place.
                      so Jonah knew but God did not.

                      This prophecy is under the same sort of conditions as the Nineveh prophecy. If Israel repents then so will God.
                      actually God says "they did not repent"
                      Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, He having authority over these plagues. And they did not repent in order to give Him glory.

                      The entire book of Jonah is dedicated to telling the story of but one of several biblical prophesies that did not come to pass. You say you reject Calvinism and Open Theism so that leaves little else except some form of Arminianism but when it comes to prophesy and God's foreknowledge, there's not a dimes worth of difference between them and the Calvinists, so how do you explain the prophesies in the bible that did not come to pass?
                      the open theist says Revelation chapter 4-22 is a guess

                      further more open theist portray God is always guessing when it comes to the future


                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
                        got it
                        Calvinists make god out to be like a stone idol
                        & open theist make god out to be like a man & guessing
                        You're just a liar. Pure and simple.

                        its open theism , anything could happen
                        Liar

                        open theist say God has all the information but is still guessing what might happen
                        No we don't, liar.

                        circumstances change and therefore your intended plan of action change
                        means you were guessing you guessed wrong
                        Saying what you isn't so makes you a liar.

                        open theist portray God as guessing ,it is what they do
                        Lying is what you do.

                        actually God says "they did not repent" it is the open theist that adds the uncertainty , guessing.
                        I quoted the passage, liar!

                        Here, read it again...

                        Jeremiah 18:7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 IF that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 IF it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

                        Go ahead and lie again abount what God said! I DARE YOU! LIAR!!!

                        so the open theist view is God was guessing
                        This is said in direct response to me having said the opposite!

                        Who do you think you're fooling here, liar?!

                        so Jonah knew but God did not.
                        I didn't say that.

                        Neither of them knew in the absolute sense but the point is that it wasn't hard to figure out because it wasn't any form of guessing whatsoever.

                        actually God says "they did not repent"
                        Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, He having authority over these plagues. And they did not repent in order to give Him glory.
                        It's a predictive prophesy, not prewritten history. If God's prediction of their unrepentance happens as predicted, so will His subsequent punishments and if not then He will repent of the disaster that He thought to bring upon them just as He explicitly states in Jeremiah 18.

                        the open theist says Revelation chapter 4-22 is a guess
                        No it doesn't, liar!

                        further more open theist portray God is always guessing when it comes to the future
                        This is utterly and totally false even from your own intentionally deceptive use of the word "guess". There are a great many things that are absolutely going to occur by God's own power that are in no way contingent upon anything other than God's own will and power. There will be a New Earth and a New Heaven. The Body of Christ will be glorified and the Law will be shown to be honorable. There is nothing that can prevent these things and many more like them from happening because God has purposed to do them of His own will and for His own purposes and they are contingent on nothing at all other than God's own timing.

                        The fact of the matter is that you don't even know what Open Theism actually teaches and what's worse is that you don't care.You're very simply a lying fool. After this post, I doubt that you're even a Christian at all and the reason you reject both open theism and Calvinism is because you reject Christianity altogether.

                        Clete
                        sigpic
                        "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                        Comment


                        • #27

                          On guessing: Clete complained about my characterization of Open Theists being less than comprehensive when I said that most don't believe God is guessing. I took his challenge seriously, and looked for instances where Open Theists might admit God is guessing. The charge is a common one among traditional theists, so I looked for a reference in their works (the works of the anti-Open Theists) to an Open Theist who admitted God was guessing when making a prediction about the future choices of men. Here's the one I found (stopped looking after this), from https://bible.org/article/examinatio...ism#P125_40685:

                          A New Testament passage that clearly demonstrates the classical view is Matthew 26:33-35, 69-75. In this passage Jesus predicts Peter’s future denial. Open theists explain the passage in terms of Christ predicting what Peter would do on the basis of His present knowledge of Peter’s character. This means that Christ used his exhaustive present knowledge of Peter to make an educated guess as to what Peter would do in the future.85


                          The footnote points to this:

                          85 Boyd, “The Open-Theism View,” 20.


                          That reference, according to a previous footnote, is actually referring to [Gregory Boyd, “The Open-Theism View,” in Divine Foreknowledge: Four Views, ed. James K. Beilby (Downers Grove: InterVarsity, 2001), 20.]
                          The problem with the bible.org article is that Boyd doesn't use the word "guess", just as way 2 go suggested. But he also doesn't speak of something akin to guessing. Boyd is pretty clear in describing the scenario as one where Peter's character had "solidified" sufficiently in this area such that God/Jesus would know how Peter would behave under certain circumstances "(which God could easily orchestrate, if he needed to)".

                          So, in regard to God's "guessing", the word is used pejoratively by those wishing to find holes to poke in Open Theism, but is not a true characterization of the beliefs of Open Theists (at least the ones I've read).

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Derf View Post

                            I agree with clete that open theists, for the most part, don't think God is guessing.
                            me too, I agree open theists don't think God is guessing but
                            that is the conclusion I get from their teaching

                            the open theists conclude from the calvinist teaching that calvinist have a God that is like a stone idol

                            In the case of prophecying unrepentance, which is a valid argument, I think I could almost do as well, as I watch the United States devolve into not just a non-Christian nation, but an anti-Christian nation. And God would have much, much, MUCH more knowledge and foresight into what men will do under the circumstances He is preparing than I ever could.
                            an open theists says God guessing even with all his knowledge

                            Rev 16:9 doesn't say "everybody" blasphemed God. Some might actually repent, but it is very likely many will not. In fact, I can imagine firefighters, for instance, trying to fight out-of-control fires in California recently, blaspheming often, specifically using the name of Jesus Christ, but specifically NOT calling on Him to help. My daughter volunteers as a firefighter, and she can attest that firefighters don't have the cleanest language.
                            actually God says "they did not repent"

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Derf View Post
                              On guessing: Clete complained about my characterization of Open Theists being less than comprehensive when I said that most don't believe God is guessing. I took his challenge seriously, and looked for instances where Open Theists might admit God is guessing. The charge is a common one among traditional theists, so I looked for a reference in their works (the works of the anti-Open Theists) to an Open Theist who admitted God was guessing when making a prediction about the future choices of men. Here's the one I found (stopped looking after this), from https://bible.org/article/examinatio...ism#P125_40685:

                              A New Testament passage that clearly demonstrates the classical view is Matthew 26:33-35, 69-75. In this passage Jesus predicts Peter’s future denial. Open theists explain the passage in terms of Christ predicting what Peter would do on the basis of His present knowledge of Peter’s character. This means that Christ used his exhaustive present knowledge of Peter to make an educated guess as to what Peter would do in the future.85


                              The footnote points to this:

                              85 Boyd, “The Open-Theism View,” 20.


                              That reference, according to a previous footnote, is actually referring to [Gregory Boyd, “The Open-Theism View,” in Divine Foreknowledge: Four Views, ed. James K. Beilby (Downers Grove: InterVarsity, 2001), 20.]
                              The problem with the bible.org article is that Boyd doesn't use the word "guess", just as way 2 go suggested. But he also doesn't speak of something akin to guessing. Boyd is pretty clear in describing the scenario as one where Peter's character had "solidified" sufficiently in this area such that God/Jesus would know how Peter would behave under certain circumstances "(which God could easily orchestrate, if he needed to)".

                              So, in regard to God's "guessing", the word is used pejoratively by those wishing to find holes to poke in Open Theism, but is not a true characterization of the beliefs of Open Theists (at least the ones I've read).
                              I can assure you that there is not one single instance of any Open Theist that believes God guesses. Not even the term "educated guess" would be an accurate way to describe what God does when He makes predictive prophecies, although that phrase, if used properly, is far more tollerable than the stupid lie that way 2 go is spreading here.

                              Having said that, Jesus did not know, in the absolute sense of the word, that Peter would deny Him three times. Jesus knew Peter extremely well and the entire sequence of events was clearly orchestrated by God and so there was a very very high degree of certainty that Peter would do as Christ predicted because it was all about God teaching Peter something about himself and not about Jesus' ability to predict the future. Nevertheless, it was possible for Peter to repent and had he done so, it would not have broken God nor would it have made Jesus a false prophet. On the contrary, Jesus would have been elated at Peter's repentance and rejoiced that His prophecy had the desired effect.

                              In fact, if Peter could not have repented, then the whole story loses it's meaning. After all, it isn't difficult to know what a puppet will do when you're the one pulling the strings. So the resident liar in this thread, way 2 go, has a choice to make. Does he believe that Peter had a choice and thus could have done otherwise as Open Theism teaches or does he believe that Peter's actions were not chosen but were instead predestined and that he could not have done otherwise as the Calvinist teaches?

                              He, of course, will not take a stand here. He's not half as honest as it would require for that to happen. He'll likely ignore the point entirely and find some sort of way to repeat the lie he came here to propagate.

                              Clete
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                              "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
                                me too, I agree open theists don't think God is guessing but
                                that is the conclusion I get from their teaching
                                No it isn't! You know perfectly well that it is a false accusation.

                                You're a liar.

                                the open theists conclude from the calvinist teaching that calvinist have a God that is like a stone idol
                                Why are you willing to modify your claim about what we say about Calvinists but not what we say about God.

                                You began this stupidity by justifying your "God guesses" accusation by equating it with our claim that the Calvinist worships a stone idol. Now its that we say that "Calvinist have a God that is LIKE a stone idol".

                                Why do you have wiggle room for the Calvinist teaching and not ours?

                                I'll tell you why!

                                It's because you're a liar! That's the reason! You aren't doing anything here that resembles honesty. This "God guesses" nonsense isn't any sort of conclusion you draw from what we teach, it is a pejorative and nothing else. If you were even half as honest as you pretend to be, you'd have dropped this lie or at the very least modified it.

                                You're either a Calvinist or you're not a Christian at all. Not even Calvinists are typically this prone to stubborn lying and so I suspect the later.
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                                "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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