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  • #31
    Originally posted by intojoy View Post
    In verse 4, John describes three groups of saints who are to co-reign with the Messiah.

    First, in verse 4a, there are those to whom judgment was given.

    This would be a reference to the Church saints who were raptured at some time preceding the Great Tribulation. The judgment spoken of is that of the Judgment Seat of the Messiah, the judgment of the believer's works. In fact, it is the outcome of this judgment that will determine the position of each Church saint in the Kingdom.

    Secondly, in verse 4b there are those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus.

    These saints are the believers who will be martyred during the first half of the Great Tribulation and were mentioned under the fifth seal (Rev. 6:9-11).

    Thirdly, in verse 4c there are those who did not worship the Antichrist or his image, nor receive the mark of 666 on their forehead or right hand. Since these things were initiated only at the middle of the Tribulation, this third group of saints will be those of the second half of the Great Tribulation.

    Both Church and Tribulation saints, then, will co reign with the King for one thousand years. The Old Testament saints will have a different destiny.




    Sent from my iPhone using TOL
    Well, ok.

    I view the thrones being those promised to the faithful of Israel.

    Matthew 19 KJV
    (28) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


    Luke 22 KJV
    (30) That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.




    Daniel 7 KJV


    (9) I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.



    (18) But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.



    (22) Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


    (27) And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
    They already know monsters exist.
    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Tambora View Post
      Well, ok.

      I view the thrones being those promised to the faithful of Israel.

      Matthew 19 KJV
      (28) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


      Luke 22 KJV
      (30) That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.




      Daniel 7 KJV


      (9) I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.



      (18) But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.



      (22) Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


      (27) And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
      Fruchtenbaum makes a strong connection that the first group vs 4a to the bema judgement. I gotta go with that


      Sent from my iPhone using TOL

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      • #33
        Still True:

        Gentiles found in a synagogue vs pagan Gentiles

        They did not take the same path into the Body.



        How could pagan Gentiles be "heirs according to the promise"?
        Originally posted by Interplanner
        They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
        Originally posted by Interplanner
        You're too literal to get it.
        Originally posted by Interplanner
        The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

        Comment


        • #34
          I can see how pagan Gentiles became: "Joint heirs with Christ, partakers of his promise in Christ, by the gospel."
          Originally posted by Interplanner
          They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
          Originally posted by Interplanner
          You're too literal to get it.
          Originally posted by Interplanner
          The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by intojoy View Post
            Fruchtenbaum makes a strong connection that the first group vs 4a to the bema judgement. I gotta go with that


            Sent from my iPhone using TOL
            OK.

            So where do you include the 12 thrones promised to the sons of Israel to judge the 12 tribes of Israel?
            What would be the need of them if the BOC has already been appointed to judge?

            We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
            They already know monsters exist.
            We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

            Comment


            • #36
              Actual, Mid-Acts, Bible Study

              Originally posted by Tambora View Post
              OK.

              So where do you include the 12 thrones promised to the sons of Israel to judge the 12 tribes of Israel?
              What would be the need of them if the BOC has already been appointed to judge?
              On two occasions, Yeshua promised the Twelve Apostles that they will be in authority over the Twelve Tribes in the Kingdom.

              The first of these passages is Matthew 19:28: And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

              The time referred to is that of the regeneration or the renovation of the earth, when the Messiah will sit upon the reestablished Throne of David in His glory. It is then that twelve other thrones will be set up, one over each of the Twelve Tribes, and the Apostles will sit on these thrones and exercise rule.

              The second passage is found in Luke 22:28-30: But ye are they that have continued with me in my temptations; and I appoint unto you a kingdom, even as my Father appointed unto me, that ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom; and ye shall sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

              The Millennial Kingdom that the Father appointed for the Son was extended to the Twelve Apostles by the Messiah.

              The difference is that Messiah's domain will be all over the world, David's rule over all Israel, while the Apostles' jurisdiction will be over particular tribes.

              The Twelve are promised two privileges with this appointment. First, they will be continually with the Messiah, eating and drinking at His table throughout the Kingdom period. Secondly , they will have their own thrones from which they will rule over the Tribes of Israel.

              Unfortunately, nothing is said as to which Apostle is to rule over which tribe. The answer to that question awaits fulfillment in the future Kingdom.


              Sent from my iPhone using TOL

              Comment


              • #37
                In Psalm 72, the different Gentile nations will have kings reining over them. These kings will have their natural bodies, while the saints who will be over them will have their spiritual, resurrected, and glorified bodies. While the individual kings will be the supreme rulers over their own nations, they themselves will be under the authority of the Church and Tribulation saints.

                So then, in the Gentile branch of government, the chain of command will be from the Messiah, to the Church and Tribulation saints, to the kings of the Gentile nations.


                Sent from my iPhone using TOL

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by intojoy View Post

                  The difference is that Messiah's domain will be all over the world, David's rule over all Israel, while the Apostles' jurisdiction will be over particular tribes.
                  But, do you not see that if there is a group responsible for judging everyone in the whole world (in your view would be the BOC), then what is the point to have another group of a few that only judges a small portion of the world?
                  Or are you saying that the 12 judge Israel and the BOC judges the rest of the world (ie. all outside of Israel)?

                  We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
                  They already know monsters exist.
                  We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by SaulToPaul View Post
                    Still True:

                    Gentiles found in a synagogue vs pagan Gentiles

                    They did not take the same path into the Body.

                    How could pagan Gentiles be "heirs according to the promise"?
                    Yours is error.

                    Here is someone else who also proves you are in error.

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnk4gcuP_5I&app=desktop

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Danoh View Post
                      Yours is error.

                      Here is someone else who also proves you are in error.

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnk4gcuP_5I&app=desktop
                      It's odd that you will not just come out and SAY what the error is. Are you ashamed of your position?
                      All of my ancestors are human.
                      Originally posted by Squeaky
                      That explains why your an idiot.
                      Originally posted by God's Truth
                      Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                      Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                      (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                      1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                      (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                      Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Tambora View Post
                        But, do you not see that if there is a group responsible for judging everyone in the whole world (in your view would be the BOC), then what is the point to have another group of a few that only judges a small portion of the world?
                        Or are you saying that the 12 judge Israel and the BOC judges the rest of the world (ie. all outside of Israel)?
                        The twelve apostles will judge one tribe each in Israel.

                        Jewish believers will live and co reign in Israel.

                        Gentile believers will live outside of Israel and have different degrees of authority judging the gentile nations.

                        During the kingdom a person will have to their 100th birthday to accept Christ, death will be present and sin present among those under the age of a hundred. It will be those that we will be judging during that time.

                        This is what I believe scripture teaches.

                        Why would you think that Messiah would give us His Bride a thousand year separation? What kind of husband would do that?


                        Sent from my iPhone using TOL

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
                          It's odd that you will not just come out and SAY what the error is. Are you ashamed of your position?
                          Indeed, pagan Gentiles were only promised a curse from God, yet we see many many being blessed.
                          How does Danoh explain this? "Heirs according to the promise"
                          Originally posted by Interplanner
                          They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
                          Originally posted by Interplanner
                          You're too literal to get it.
                          Originally posted by Interplanner
                          The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            It's not complicated.

                            There were some Gentiles that Paul could take through the prophets and show them that they were in line for a blessing.

                            There were other Gentiles that he could not do that with. Their blessing was hid in God.
                            Originally posted by Interplanner
                            They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
                            Originally posted by Interplanner
                            You're too literal to get it.
                            Originally posted by Interplanner
                            The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
                              It's odd that you will not just come out and SAY what the error is. Are you ashamed of your position?
                              Try that legalistic nonsense on some newbie.

                              Fact is, the two men on those two links I posted turn out to have arrived at basically the same conclusions against your Hybrid that I myself long arrived at and posted against early on, on TOL.

                              Both links of which you have each skirted.

                              No sense in redoing what another has so aptly laid out.

                              You, know, RD - the same reason you and yours will at times point others to one link or another for.

                              But as I have already noted, yours and yours' is a double-standard.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Danoh View Post
                                Try that legalistic nonsense on some newbie.

                                Fact is, the two men on those two links I posted turn out to have arrived at basically the same conclusions against your Hybrid that I myself long arrived at and posted against early on, on TOL.

                                Both links of which you have each skirted.

                                No sense in redoing what another has so aptly laid out.

                                You, know, RD - the same reason you and yours will at times point others to one link or another for.

                                But as I have already noted, yours and yours' is a double-standard.
                                Did Gentiles in the synagogue and pagan Gentiles take the same path into the Body?
                                Originally posted by Interplanner
                                They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
                                Originally posted by Interplanner
                                You're too literal to get it.
                                Originally posted by Interplanner
                                The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

                                Comment

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