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  • Theology Club: Departure cannot possibly mean the removal of the church

    John Nelson Darby was a Dispy but he was not a Mid acts dispy. Certainly he was not the father of it.

    He is however the modern day father of the pre-trib rapture, it did not originate with him, it originated with the Irvingites. Having failed to get his doctrine past the British theologians Darby took it to America where it took off like a rocket.

    He did a sleight of hand.

    He took the meaning of "departure" in 2nd Thess. and changed it from rebellion which had been the unanimously accepted meaning and gave it a new meaning "departure" as in "removal" i.e. the removal of the church.

    This makes IMPOSSIBLE grammar. For Paul now says this

    "Brethren concerning the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our meeting Him in the clouds I beseech you etc....

    ....that day cannot come unless first there has come a departure...."

    So Paul according to Darby is saying

    Brethren...concerning the rapture, that day cannot come until first there has come a rapture.

    See how impossible that is?
    One lavished upon in the Beloved
    sigpic

  • #2
    I believe in a pre trib rapture, but I agree with you on this verse.

    Originally posted by Interplanner
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Originally posted by Interplanner
    You're too literal to get it.
    Originally posted by Interplanner
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
      John Nelson Darby was a Dispy but he was not a Mid acts dispy. Certainly he was not the father of it.

      He is however the modern day father of the pre-trib rapture, it did not originate with him, it originated with the Irvingites. Having failed to get his doctrine past the British theologians Darby took it to America where it took off like a rocket.

      He did a sleight of hand.

      He took the meaning of "departure" in 2nd Thess. and changed it from rebellion which had been the unanimously accepted meaning and gave it a new meaning "departure" as in "removal" i.e. the removal of the church.

      This makes IMPOSSIBLE grammar. For Paul now says this

      "Brethren concerning the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our meeting Him in the clouds I beseech you etc....

      ....that day cannot come unless first there has come a departure...."

      So Paul according to Darby is saying

      Brethren...concerning the rapture, that day cannot come until first there has come a rapture.

      See how impossible that is?

      Hi and just where is there a Greek word for " RAPTURE " ??

      There isn't !!

      The verses in 2 Thess 2:1-3 speak to Christ " COMING " !!


      DAN P

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by DAN P View Post
        Hi and just where is there a Greek word for " RAPTURE " ??

        There isn't !!

        The verses in 2 Thess 2:1-3 speak to Christ " COMING " !!


        DAN P
        ...and our going
        One lavished upon in the Beloved
        sigpic

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by SaulToPaul View Post
          I believe in a pre trib rapture, but I agree with you on this verse.


          Me, too!

          Originally posted by DAN P View Post
          Hi and just where is there a Greek word for " RAPTURE " ??

          There isn't !!

          The verses in 2 Thess 2:1-3 speak to Christ " COMING " !!


          DAN P
          Greek- harpazo - caught up, seized, snatched

          Latin- rapeirme- rapto- transliterated to English- rapture
          Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
          Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by steko View Post
            Me, too!



            Greek- harpazo - caught up, seized, snatched

            Latin- rapeirme- rapto- transliterated to English- rapture
            Why?

            Jesus was a post tribber

            "after the tribulation of those days they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds ...He will send out His holy angels to gather the elect...."

            That is 2.Thess.2.
            One lavished upon in the Beloved
            sigpic

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
              Why?

              Jesus was a post tribber

              "after the tribulation of those days they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds ...He will send out His holy angels to gather the elect...."

              That is 2.Thess.2.
              This is my very studied opinion.
              You suit yourself but this is how I see it.
              My use of brackets is not meant to correct or add to Scripture but to insert my opinion as to what I understand the terms to mean.
              Matthew 24 is spoken in harmony with what the OT prophets say concerning the regathering of Israel back to the land and the restoration of the Davidic Messianic Kingdom to Israel.
              Note: Angels regather Israel per Mt 24:31 back to the land......the 'Lord Himself' gathers the Body of Christ per 1Th 4:16 to meet Him in the air.
              Mt 24 is OT harmonious prophecy concerning Israel and the land.
              Paul gives new information concerning the Body of Christ who are citizens of heaven.


              Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the[twelve] tribes of the earth[land] mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
              Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect[scattered Israel] from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
              Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
              Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by steko View Post
                Me, too!



                Greek- harpazo - caught up, seized, snatched

                Latin- rapeirme- rapto- transliterated to English- rapture


                Hi and the bible is written in Greek and NOT IN Latin .

                The Greek word APOSTASIA is not the word APOSTASY and is a Transliterated word and one meaning is the English word DEPARTURE !


                In 2 Thess 2:1 the Greek words PAROUIA speaks of our Lord's COMING for His Body , is the CONTEXT !!

                DAN P

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by DAN P View Post
                  Hi and the bible is written in Greek and NOT IN Latin .

                  The Greek word APOSTASIA is not the word APOSTASY and is a Transliterated word and one meaning is the English word DEPARTURE !


                  In 2 Thess 2:1 the Greek words PAROUIA speaks of our Lord's COMING for His Body , is the CONTEXT !!

                  DAN P
                  Steko is likely referring to the Latin Vulgate.
                  All of my ancestors are human.
                  Originally posted by Squeaky
                  That explains why your an idiot.
                  Originally posted by God's Truth
                  Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                  Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                  (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                  1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                  (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                  Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
                    John Nelson Darby was a Dispy but he was not a Mid acts dispy. Certainly he was not the father of it.

                    He is however the modern day father of the pre-trib rapture, it did not originate with him, it originated with the Irvingites. Having failed to get his doctrine past the British theologians Darby took it to America where it took off like a rocket.

                    He did a sleight of hand.

                    He took the meaning of "departure" in 2nd Thess. and changed it from rebellion which had been the unanimously accepted meaning and gave it a new meaning "departure" as in "removal" i.e. the removal of the church.

                    This makes IMPOSSIBLE grammar. For Paul now says this

                    "Brethren concerning the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our meeting Him in the clouds I beseech you etc....

                    ....that day cannot come unless first there has come a departure...."

                    So Paul according to Darby is saying

                    Brethren...concerning the rapture, that day cannot come until first there has come a rapture.

                    See how impossible that is?
                    There was already rebellion (or doctrinal defection, apostasy in our modern usage, or the KJ "falling away") from the Pauline revelation while he was still alive, and he warned it'd only get worse.

                    Yet this "departure" is set forth here as something very distinctive and unique, which doctrinal apostasy was not...Paul's indictments of Hymenaeus, Philetus, Alexander among others prove this.

                    Don't just tell us what this apostasia isn't...tell us what it is. Tell us what exactly is it will be and how those who see it will know what it means?
                    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
                    Terence Mc Lean

                    [most will be very surprised]


                    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
                    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
                      Steko is likely referring to the Latin Vulgate.

                      Hi and I knew that , thanks !

                      dan p

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by musterion View Post
                        There was already rebellion (or doctrinal defection, apostasy in our modern usage, or the KJ "falling away") from the Pauline revelation while he was still alive, and he warned it'd only get worse.

                        Yet this "departure" is set forth here as something very distinctive and unique, which doctrinal apostasy was not...Paul's indictments of Hymenaeus, Philetus, Alexander among others prove this.

                        Don't just tell us what this apostasia isn't...tell us what it is. Tell us what exactly is it will be and how those who see it will know what it means?

                        Hi and good job , and read that one of the first translation used the word DEPARTURE for the Greek word " falling away " APOSTASIA THEN the KJV changed it to " falling away " that caused confusion !!

                        dan p

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post


                          See how impossible that is?
                          Like speaking in tongues

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."
                            If the word most literally (in English) means "departure" or "a standing away from" (I don't see the need to agree with Strong's implied 'desertion' though it may be valid), then the question is, "Departure/standing away (a) of whom or what (b) from what?" That's what I want someone to explain.
                            "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
                            Terence Mc Lean

                            [most will be very surprised]


                            Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
                            By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It is the final rebellion, revealing the man of sin, who

                              Opposes everything called God, that will mean persecution, the GREAT persecution or the great tribulation which Christ speaks about.

                              He will sit in the temple declaring that he himself is God....now watch this

                              Christ comes at the end of his career not the beginning. Ac will only sit in the temple when he thinks he has finally put down all other religions.
                              One lavished upon in the Beloved
                              sigpic

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