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  • #76
    Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
    Who says otherwise?
    Nobody, just talking 'out loud' as it were, what reading you two is conveying.

    Many people think that this refers to "salvation from our sin condition":

    It does NOT.
    My brother from church, a seminary graduate and I, were talking about this exact verse and I agreed with you, and said as much to him. It was at that point he said "only Mid Acts believe this. You are well within Mid Acts (he avoids "MAD") theology.


    That does make all believers "spiritual Israel" or some such silliness.
    In the sense that Romans says 'we are grafted in?" But to inherit land? I think there is general agreement but on all? I'm still learning but essentially agree (I think at this point anyway).


    Not sure where you're going with this.
    One of the 'same' and 'differences' was regarding a whole people called 'Israel' and those who so in their hearts. The Lord Jesus Christ corrected Hebrews (and I've had to do so today), that 'not all in Israel, 'is' Israel. One that is Israel is one internally and now, necessarily, only those with Christ. Point? I'm needing to keep track of what is similar, what is the same, and what is different.


    Faith in what?

    Don't just look at similarities, also look at differences.
    Faith in God, that He will take care of our needs (our largest being removing us from our sin condition).



    Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
    You simply cannot find "being justified by His grace" in the "gospels" during Christ's earthly ministry (or in Acts prior to the calling of Paul).
    Having read Paul talk of a genuine mystery, I've become convinced Mid Acts is correct. Grace alone is part of the mystery, correct?
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    ? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
      You're some sort of loner MAD with your strange "MAD" philosophy.
      The giants of MAD, Sir Robert Anderson, J.C. O'Hair, and Cornelius Stam, believed that all the Jewish believers were in the Body of Christ and that the doctrine contained in the Hebrew epistles is for those in the Body of Christ.

      Paul Sadler, and those who follow his teaching, believe that neither John nor Peter called on the name of the Lord Jesus and are not in the Body. They also believe that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works despite the fact that the Lord Jesus told them the following:

      "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).

      We also read this:

      "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).


      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Lon View Post
        A bit of background, but feel free to skip to the last paragraph.
        Lon, I appreciate your background material, but I would appreciate it if you would answer my question.

        Thanks!

        Comment


        • #79
          Lon, I've read you over the years and I appreciate your openness to consider other points of view.
          Most others on TOL who have opposed MAD have not appeared to be able to question their own position at least experimentally and listen to what the MAD position actually is.

          I would not have anyone blindly accept MAD dispensationalism on any authority than rightly dividing the Word of Truth and coming to a firm conviction according to sound reason.

          Press on, brother!
          Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
          Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post

            The giants of MAD, Sir Robert Anderson, J.C. O'Hair, and Cornelius Stam, believed that all the Jewish believers were in the Body of Christ and that the doctrine contained in the Hebrew epistles is for those in the Body of Christ.

            Paul Sadler, and those who follow his teaching, believe that neither John nor Peter called on the name of the Lord Jesus and are not in the Body. They also believe that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works despite the fact that the Lord Jesus told them the following:

            "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).

            We also read this:

            "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).

            Trying to change the subject again..... you're a piece of work Jerry.

            You are a Bible blender par excellence and hardly a dispensationalist at all.

            Your ability to rightly divide the word of truth: zero or below.
            All of my ancestors are human.
            Originally posted by Squeaky
            That explains why your an idiot.
            Originally posted by God's Truth
            Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
            Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
            (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

            1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
            (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

            Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Right Divider View Post

              You are a Bible blender par excellence and hardly a dispensationalist at all.

              Your ability to rightly divide the word of truth: zero or below.
              All I see from you is your ability to just IGNORE any Scripture passage which contradict your ideas. You say that you believe the Lord Jesus and if you do then tell us if you believe what He said here to the Jews who lived under the law:

              "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).

              Do you actually believe His words there and do you admit that the only thing which a Jew who lived under the law had to do to be saved was to believe?

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post

                All I see from you is your ability to just IGNORE any Scripture passage which contradict your ideas. You say that you believe the Lord Jesus and if you do then tell us if you believe what He said here to the Jews who lived under the law:

                "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).

                Do you actually believe His words there and do you admit that the only thing which a Jew who lived under the law had to do to be saved was to believe?
                Falsely accusing me again and again. Stop it Jerry.

                Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden; yet it is clear from the passages above that Abraham, David and we were all saved essentially by grace through faith and that works as such have never had any saving value.

                Stam, Cornelius. Things That Differ (Kindle Locations 366-368). Berean Bible Society. Kindle Edition.
                I guess that, in this case, you must disagree with "one of the giants of MAD".
                All of my ancestors are human.
                Originally posted by Squeaky
                That explains why your an idiot.
                Originally posted by God's Truth
                Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by steko View Post
                  Lon, I've read you over the years and I appreciate your openness to consider other points of view.
                  Most others on TOL who have opposed MAD have not appeared to be able to question their own position at least experimentally and listen to what the MAD position actually is.

                  I would not have anyone blindly accept MAD dispensationalism on any authority than rightly dividing the Word of Truth and coming to a firm conviction according to sound reason.

                  Press on, brother!
                  Thank you. I've enjoyed reading you over these 20 years as well.
                  My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                  Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                  Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                  Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                  No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                  Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                  ? Yep

                  Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                  ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                  Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                    Lon, do you think it is possible that the word "we" in that verse can be referring to "all" of the Gentile believers but only "some" of the Jewish believers but not "all" of them?
                    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post

                    Lon, I appreciate your background material, but I would appreciate it if you would answer my question.

                    Thanks!
                    Originally posted by Lon View Post
                    A bit of background, but feel free to skip to the last paragraph:


                    I do see Acts talking about churches and Galatians addresses gentiles and Jews mixing. Paul calls for a specific 'separation' but I'm not sure if such entails separate eschatologies (It may since the Apostle Paul mentions it in Romans). Right Divider is correct that Paul is the Apostle to the gentiles so he is also correct that something must be 'gentile' oriented. That said, Peter says he's read all of Paul's 'scriptures' so it is important to argue/discuss through 'what is the same' and 'what is different.' I again appreciate the conversation.
                    I'm in 'trying to see the points' mode so let me answer as to what I'm open to seeing:

                    Yes, it is 'possible' that 'we' can be refering to all of one group thus 'some' from another.

                    Do I find it likely? Peter's response to all of Paul's scriptures 'in all his writings' must mean he's familiar with them all.
                    It does not, however mean, that these were addressed to them. Galatians, for example, was specifically applicable to gentiles. No Jew would have applied it other than being careful not to judiaze a gentile.

                    So yes, possible. Likely? I'm still reading the thread and weighing. In one sense, in order to weigh carefully, it is better to listen on some of these because I'm trying to find out what Mid Acts believes, not rehash all that I believe. If it helps, as discussion proceeds, I will try to input meaningfully, but I'd rather be listening more, talking less as this thread progresses.



                    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                    ? Yep

                    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                    ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                      "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).[/INDENT]
                      I'd guess at this point, that you are 2nd Acts Dispensational. I do know Mid Acts see the Gospel of John as Jewish in nature. While all Mid Acts (as far as my understanding at this point), does read Jewish mail, they divide more than they unify all of scripture. It isn't that they wouldn't disagree that all who believe have eternal life, but that works were evidence.

                      Originally posted by Stam
                      Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden; yet it is clear from the passages above that Abraham, David and we were all saved essentially by grace through faith and that works as such have never had any saving value.

                      Stam, Cornelius. Things That Differ (Kindle Locations 366-368). Berean Bible Society. Kindle Edition.
                      Do you actually believe His words there and do you admit that the only thing which a Jew who lived under the law had to do to be saved was to believe?[/QUOTE]

                      They'd disagree (I'm pretty sure). James said 'faith without works is dead
                      Spoiler
                      James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

                      18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by [b]my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [d]perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was [e]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

                      25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

                      26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

                      One has to wonder why James had to write a letter to Jewish believers to do what the Holy Spirit would have motivated already.

                      James 2:14 would make most sense from Mid Acts, if it were only talking about Jewish believers specifically because Jews were still in an intrinsic/extrinsic dynamic. The Holy Spirit indeed indwelled them, but they were in a society where 'no works' would only have them 'extrinsically' identified by word only. James was also concerned with community where some were being neglected in the body.

                      It doesn't mean believers need to be warned in doing works (extrinsic) but that as new creations, they will 'new naturally' do as the Holy Spirit living inside leads. We can 'quench' the Holy Spirit so God has placed us in a body as another check to help us live and grow as new creations.

                      Clearly, however, works were needed prior to the Lord Jesus Christ sending the Holy Spirit, because the Spirit would not indwell men until after this time. Works were an outward sign of authenticity. The Spirit, in Mid Acts, is the ONLY sign that a believer is saved by Grace (specifically in Mid Acts theology) that I've read so far.

                      Totally open to correction/input. This is just what I'm understanding so far. -Lon


                      My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                      Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                      Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                      Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                      No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                      Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                      ? Yep

                      Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                      ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                      Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
                        You are a Bible blender par excellence and hardly a dispensationalist at all.
                        I think he's 2nd Acts, from most of what he's saying. There may be a nuance of something I'm missing, but I'll have to do some reading on Sir Robert Anderson, J.C. O'Hair, and Cornelius Stam to better grasp where they fall on the Dispensational spectrum.

                        A bit of reading from Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperdispensationalism:

                        The hallmark is that the church is served uniquely with Paul's ministry and upon that, there is a complete agreement. (Stam and O'hair).
                        Interestingly, O'hair had Calvinist leanings and was more aligned with Darby and Scofield than Mid Acts by this assessment:

                        John Nelson Darby, the father of dispensationalism, believes that the church began at Pentecost, but his dispensational scheme is not like Scofield's and later American dispensationalists (except classic Pauline dispensationalism). It is also unlike that of hyperdispensationalists. The church does not begin with a new dispensation for Darby, as the administrations upon Earth are not relevant for the heavenly church body. One can study R.A. Huebner, who sees the Church's advent at Acts 2, to get a better understanding of Darby's scheme of dispensations which is different than Scofield's. Also, Miles J. Stanford (classic Pauline dispensationalism) follows Darby's dispensational scheme and criticizes Acts 28 as well as Mid-Acts dispensationalists for not following Darby. Stanford drew heavily upon Darby's soteriology of "spiritual growth" and considered himself a "classic Pauline dispensationalist" in the line of the Plymouth Brethren Darbyite dispensationalists.[19]

                        However, classic (Pauline) dispensationalism's earliest teachers (Darbyite) were the source for J.C. O'Hair's consistent dispensational doctrines, but he seems to have adopted Scofield's dispensational scheme, adapting it to the Mid-Acts position.[20] Also, early Calvinism does not seem to be in evidence so much today and is being fully rejected in more and more churches.
                        This article says O'hair eventually came to a Mid Acts position. It may be important to distinguish between his early and latter writings. The above is when he was closer to 2nd Acts Dispensationalism.
                        My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                        Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                        Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                        Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                        No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                        Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                        ? Yep

                        Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                        ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                        Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Lon View Post
                          I think he's 2nd Acts, from most of what he's saying.
                          He explicitly claims to be Acts 13, which is also why he claims to be MAD.

                          Originally posted by Lon View Post
                          There may be a nuance of something I'm missing, but I'll have to do some reading on Sir Robert Anderson, J.C. O'Hair, and Cornelius Stam to better grasp where they fall on the Dispensational spectrum.
                          Jerry's main problem is that he takes verses out of context. Many people have that problem and I don't claim to be completely free from that myself.

                          But Jerry does not make any distinction between the calling of those in Israel (like the 12 apostles) from those in the body of Christ (like Paul). So he takes passages talking about the body of Christ and forces them to be universal.

                          So for him... all believers are in the "body of Christ". He even claims that all of the believers in Jerusalem were "put in the body" in Acts 7.

                          Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                          I believe that the whole company of Jewish believers were baptized into the Body of Christ at Acts 7 when Stephen was stoned and that was the same time when Israel was temporarily set aside.
                          This puts Jerry outside the realm of most MAD because we believe that Paul was the first member of the body of Christ.
                          All of my ancestors are human.
                          Originally posted by Squeaky
                          That explains why your an idiot.
                          Originally posted by God's Truth
                          Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                          Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                          (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                          1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                          (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                          Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Lon View Post
                            Yes, it is 'possible' that 'we' can be refering to all of one group thus 'some' from another.
                            Lon, then you must believe that only " some" but not "all" of the Jewish believers called in the name of the Lord Jesus. In the introduction found in the first epistle to the church at Corinth we read the following:
                            "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).

                            Paul's words in this epistle were not just addressed to the church at Corinth but also to "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord." That can only mean that Paul addressed this epistle to every Christian, whether they be Gentile or Jew, who were alive when he wrote this epistle. It is obvious that the Twelve are members of the Body of Christ because this is what Paul told all believers later in the same epistle:

                            "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

                            Paul tells all the believers on the face of the earth at that time that we are "all" baptized into the Body of Christ.

                            Lon, do you believe that only some of the Jewish believers called on the name of the Lord Jesus but not all of them?

                            Thanks!

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
                              This puts Jerry outside the realm of most MAD because we believe that Paul was the first member of the body of Christ.
                              So far you have given ZERO evidence that Paul was the first member of the Body of Christ. On the other hand, Paul speaks of those who were " in Christ" before he was:

                              "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Ro.16:7).

                              In the same epistle Paul makes it plain that the Body of Christ is "in Christ":

                              "So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Ro.12:5).

                              It is your time to give the evidence which you think proves that Paul was the first member of the Body of Christ. Surely you have something?



                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Lon View Post
                                I'd guess at this point, that you are 2nd Acts Dispensational.
                                No, I am a Mid Acts believer. Here are three quotes from the pen of Paul where he speaks of a "dispensation" that has been committed or given to him:

                                "If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you" (Eph. 3:2).

                                "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).

                                "...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor.9:17).

                                The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace", a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:

                                "But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20: 24).

                                Paul began to preach that gospel to the Gentiles at Acts 13:46-48 so the present dispensation of the grace of God began at Acts13. Those in the Acts 2 community place the beginning of the present dispensation at Acts 2.

                                What do you say determines the beginning of the present dispensation, Lon?

                                Comment

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