Announcement

Collapse

Creation Science Rules

This is a new section being rolled out to attract people interested in exploring the origins of the universe and the earth from a biblical perspective.
Debate is encouraged and opposing viewpoints are welcome to post but certain rules must be followed.
1. No abusive tagging - if abusive tags are found - they will be deleted and disabled by the Admin team
2. No calling the biblical accounts a fable - fairy tale ect. This is a Christian site, so members that participate here must be respectful in their disagreement.
See more
See less

Creationist are losing the battle in the world wide hysteria over covid-19.

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by tieman55 View Post

    Yes, I am saying death, in context, is a just fine.

    Let me first quote Kevin Costner in "Open Range", great movie . . . the bar scene where Costner is talking to two freighters, who were timid about taking up arms against the corrupt sheriff. Costner says. . . "Your men ain't ya? . . . Well, I don't know if you know this or not, but there are things that can gnaw at a man worse than death!" Great scene because it is so true.

    Christian's, generally,, are taught that there was no death before the fall of man, but that is a figure of speech. God didn't create death but when He created life, death was also going to be a part of life. So yes I am defending death as part of life and I am further defending a person who is prepared to die as a good part of life.

    In 2014 the National Safety Counsel said 136,000 people died "accidentally" in the USA.

    Now I know this is going to be hard but try thinking seriously about whether or not accidents were part of God's curse?
    Or, did/could accidents happen before the curse, before the fall of man? You have answer that question and settle it in your mind, one way or the other.

    Again, this is going to be hard for you, so please think about it . . . . Death was not part of the curse (ouch that hurt didn't it?), as life and or the possibility of death existed before the curse. The curse was only you will "surly die", not maybe, not possibly, surly die. Adam, had he not eaten from the tree, could have still died in many ways, it just wasn't assured, until he ate from the tree. Adam was a man, not a super man. LOL

    As to the debate: Creationist could easily win the debate, if they surely were convinced that God's creation was/is good and choose to defend what God has made. And as far as who is losing the debate, well at this moment that would be you
    Accidents are not part of the curse, dying because of them is.
    sigpic
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Clete View Post

      Accidents are not part of the curse, dying because of them is.
      I don't recall God saying to Adam, you can't die. I guess I missed that in the Bible, please quote that verse for me.

      The only verse I recall was, is, "you will surly die" if you eat from the tree of knowledge. So your saying that scripture means, Adam you can't die, if you don't eat.

      So, your saying Adam was indeed superman before the fall . . . I don't think so.

      Could God have said, "Adam you can't die if you don't eat from the tree of Knowledge"? God could have said that, if that is what He meant. Maybe your wrong about what God meant?

      Your right, accidents do happen: So, before the fall, Adam was not told he couldn't climb the tree of knowledge. So what if he climbs up the tree, higher and higher and then Adam slips and falls . . . . he lands on a rock and he head splits open, his neck breaks, his arm is in three pieces, so again how exactly does he not die? What if he can't make it to the Tree of life? What if his mouth is not working and he can't eat from the tree of life? Does the tree of life do surgery? Does the tree of life have a set of paddles to restart his heart? Explain the mechanics of how Adam is cured? What if Adam doesn't want the help? What if Adam cuts himself and is far away from the tree of life, and he can't make it back, then what?

      No change all of that, Adam falls off the tree hits a rock and rolls into the fast moving river and the river carries him off, how exactly does he not die after that series of accidents?

      So, after you torture yourself into an elaborate scheme of events where he doesn't die, then what happens once Adam finds out he can't die? If fact, Adam would very quickly figure out he can't die. Then what?? . . . . that world view, your world view is untenable.

      "You will surly die" is perfect language, perfect, and is exactly what God said and meant.

      Did anything before the fall die? How about bugs like fly's, fly's multiply by the millions in just a few days, were they also going to live for ever? What if Adam stepped on a fly, did it die? What if flies are landing on Adam face, and he gets frustrated and smacks one to death before man's fall? Does it die? How about Adam stubs his toe, (is that allowed before the fall?) and breaks a toe nail, millions human cells die in the process. Or are those super cells that also can't die? There is far more unseen life than seen life, did any microscopic life die before the fall?

      There are at least two men, that lived long after the fall, that never died, so all men don't surely die. God told Adam and only Adam that "you will surely die" if you eat from the tree and 1000 years after eating from the tree, he surely did die.




      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
        That is ridiculous.
        Which part? There are two issues: One, what Christians are generally taught and, second that there is no death before the fall is a figure of speech. Both are true but if you clarify which one, is ridiculous, I will gladly and humbly explain it to you. I know thinking is hard, but you can do it.

        BTW, your responses are generally non responsive.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by tieman55 View Post

          Which part?
          The part that I BOLDED.

          Originally posted by tieman55 View Post
          BTW, your responses are generally non responsive.
          That's because you're not very observant.

          All of my ancestors are human.
          Originally posted by Squeaky
          That explains why your an idiot.
          Originally posted by God's Truth
          Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
          Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
          (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

          1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
          (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

          Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
            That is ridiculous.
            No death before the fall, is a figure of speech.

            We don't know how long Adam lived before the fall, yes or no?

            There is far more microscopic life then there is life that we can see, yes or no?

            Are you saying, not one insect and or one living cell and or organism from a cut or a scrap or a blister to the skin of Adam and or Eve could have happened before the fall? Adam never tripped and fell before the fall? Never stubbed a toe? Was he created with shoes on?

            Was Adam superman, or was he just a man?

            Adam and Eve ate, was the food they ate at any point alive?

            Yes, no death before the fall is a figure of speech.







            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by tieman55 View Post

              No death before the fall, is a figure of speech.
              Saying it does not make it so. You clearly have no idea what a figure of speech is.
              All of my ancestors are human.
              Originally posted by Squeaky
              That explains why your an idiot.
              Originally posted by God's Truth
              Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
              Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
              (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

              1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
              (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

              Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

              Comment


              • #52
                Again, your responses are evasive and non responsive.

                You have shifted from ridiculous to my lack of understanding.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by tieman55 View Post
                  Again, your responses are evasive and non responsive.
                  You are wrong about that also.

                  Originally posted by tieman55 View Post
                  You have shifted from ridiculous to my lack of understanding.
                  Those go hand in hand.
                  All of my ancestors are human.
                  Originally posted by Squeaky
                  That explains why your an idiot.
                  Originally posted by God's Truth
                  Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                  Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                  (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                  1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                  (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                  Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by tieman55 View Post

                    No death before the fall, is a figure of speech.
                    LOL

                    What a brilliant figure of speech to use--"No death before the fall"--when what you're trying to convey by it is the idea of some, nay, of much death before the fall.


                    What evidence do you have to support your claim that what you call "evidence" is evidence?

                    MAGA (Masking America's Gullible Apes)

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by tieman55 View Post

                      No death before the fall, is a figure of speech.

                      We don't know how long Adam lived before the fall, yes or no?

                      There is far more microscopic life then there is life that we can see, yes or no?

                      Are you saying, not one insect and or one living cell and or organism from a cut or a scrap or a blister to the skin of Adam and or Eve could have happened before the fall? Adam never tripped and fell before the fall? Never stubbed a toe? Was he created with shoes on?

                      Was Adam superman, or was he just a man?

                      Adam and Eve ate, was the food they ate at any point alive?

                      Yes, no death before the fall is a figure of speech.
                      A figure of speach would require someone to say it. There isn't anyone who believes that there was no death before the fall in the way you are meaning it here. At least I've never heard of anyone who thought that plants and anmals lived forever, that fruit would never rot back into the soil, or that somehow the food Adam ate remained alive or even intact after he ate it. No one with any common sense would believe such things.

                      But none of that is what death is. That's all biology. Death is a spiritual issue, not a biological one. Death happens when your soul/spirit is seperated from your physical body (physical death) or from God the Father (spiritual death). Neither would have ever happened to Adam and Eve had they not chosen to rebel against God, Who is Life itself.

                      Of course, there is an important sense in which biological things are alive and when that biology stops it isn't wrong to say that they have died. Not only that, but biological death is one way to seperate one's spirit from the body but the point is that when God said "...in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.", He wasn't talking about biology.

                      sigpic
                      "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Clete View Post

                        A figure of speach would require someone to say it. There isn't anyone who believes that there was no death before the fall in the way you are meaning it here. At least I've never heard of anyone who thought that plants and anmals lived forever, that fruit would never rot back into the soil, or that somehow the food Adam ate remained alive or even intact after he ate it. No one with any common sense would believe such things.

                        But none of that is what death is. That's all biology. Death is a spiritual issue, not a biological one. Death happens when your soul/spirit is seperated from your physical body (physical death) or from God the Father (spiritual death). Neither would have ever happened to Adam and Eve had they not chosen to rebel against God, Who is Life itself.

                        Of course, there is an important sense in which biological things are alive and when that biology stops it isn't wrong to say that they have died. Not only that, but biological death is one way to seperate one's spirit from the body but the point is that when God said "...in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.", He wasn't talking about biology.
                        So, I agree with just about everything you said, but above you have made declarative and restrictive observations that, to me, make "death" a figure of speech that almost always needs further context, so that the reader can understand what you mean by death.

                        My question is "could" Adam die before the fall? God said if you eat you will "surly" die. God never told Adam that he couldn't die. Before he ate, he could have died an accidental physical death.
                        (The last sentence is a great example as to how the word "death" needs to have the proper context. If I didn't add the word physical, you could have thought I meant spiritual) I think that observation, that Adam "could" have died before he ate is an important to know. If you accept the possibility that Adam could have had an accidental death then, "surly" takes on a new meaning.

                        As to how common the belief is that there was NO death before the fall? In my life it is quite common to hear that from Christians. The average pew sitter, hears it and repeats it with little thought. Now, once you reason with them for just a moment they easily get the idea, but they most likely will not adopt that belief without a person of authority saying it.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Right Divider View Post

                          That has NOTHING to do with the post that I quoted.
                          I see that you post a lot, I was wondering if you ever make any substantive comments; or do you only do drive by's?

                          I am guessing, Isaiah's, admonition . . . come lets reason together . . is not your favorite bible verse. LOL

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by tieman55 View Post
                            So, I agree with just about everything you said, but above you have made declarative and restrictive observations that, to me, make "death" a figure of speech that almost always needs further context, so that the reader can understand what you mean by death.

                            My question is "could" Adam die before the fall? God said if you eat you will "surly" die. God never told Adam that he couldn't die. Before he ate, he could have died an accidental physical death.
                            (The last sentence is a great example as to how the word "death" needs to have the proper context. If I didn't add the word physical, you could have thought I meant spiritual) I think that observation, that Adam "could" have died before he ate is an important to know. If you accept the possibility that Adam could have had an accidental death then, "surly" takes on a new meaning.

                            As to how common the belief is that there was NO death before the fall? In my life it is quite common to hear that from Christians. The average pew sitter, hears it and repeats it with little thought. Now, once you reason with them for just a moment they easily get the idea, but they most likely will not adopt that belief without a person of authority saying it.
                            'figure of speech?'
                            Figure of speech, any intentional deviation from literal statement or common usage that emphasizes, clarifies, or embellishes both written and spoken language. britannica.com

                            Figure of Speech: a form of expression (such as a simile or metaphor) used to convey meaning or heighten effect often by comparing or identifying one thing with another that has a meaning or connotation familiar to the reader or listener -Webster's

                            Disparity: Noticeable difference between two things - Collins

                            My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                            Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                            Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                            Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                            No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                            Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                            ? Yep

                            Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                            ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                            Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by tieman55 View Post

                              I see that you post a lot, I was wondering if you ever make any substantive comments; or do you only do drive by's?

                              I am guessing, Isaiah's, admonition . . . come lets reason together . . is not your favorite bible verse. LOL
                              YOU claim that there is a "figure of speech" and YET you cannot support that idea.

                              Apparently, you do not even know what the term means.

                              LOL
                              All of my ancestors are human.
                              Originally posted by Squeaky
                              That explains why your an idiot.
                              Originally posted by God's Truth
                              Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                              Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                              (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                              1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                              (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                              Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Right Divider View Post

                                YOU claim that there is a "figure of speech" and YET you cannot support that idea.

                                Apparently, you do not even know what the term means.

                                LOL
                                Wow, congrats to the divider! No drive by hit and run today ... and I thought you were a bot , . .

                                Just how "figure of speech" became a focal point of my post is funny . . . anyway

                                My experience, and my overall impression over my years in church and in what Christians are generally taught is that there was no death before the fall. I thought and still think I am being generous, in my calling that general teaching a figure of speech. To be specific, it is hyperbole and clearly it is not literally true, no death before the fall is an exaggeration.

                                Are you still laughing out loud?

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X