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Adam and or Eve had all the viruses.

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  • Adam and or Eve had all the viruses.

    Viruses are not technically alive outside of a host. And just how long they can exist outside a host is unknown. So, Adam and Eve had to have had most if not all the viruses by kind, and they lived close to a 1000 years . . . I say that is interesting.

    Seeds and pollen, which are in some ways similar to viruses, can remain dormant for thousand(s) of years and in many cases largely unaffected by entropy, in that they still function. But a virus, we don’t know just how long they can exist outside a host and or entropy’s affect on their function.

    I think it is very likely that Adam and Eve were rarely ill, we know they lived very long lives, and they had to have had all the viruses. Those things can’t be a coincidences . . . in my world view those items are what I call, clues. Clues to a long healthy life on earth.

    Another clue is the bowhead whale, it just “happens” to be the longest living animal on earth at 200 years. And then there is the sea turtle, some say turtles may live 400 or 500 years, we just don’t know. Is it a coincidence that both of the longest living creatures on earth, are creatures that would not have been virus isolated during Noah’s flood? And without any question there are more viruses in the ocean than there are on dry land, yet that is where we find the longest living creatures. Maybe viruses help humans and animals deal with the effects of entropy?

    How about Noah . . . between the occupants of the Ark, it is likely that most all the viruses were present but probably not all. Could that be a contributing factor to the reduction in the life spans of animals post flood?

    Do all the viruses that existed in Eden still exist? I think it is likely they all do. Viruses are part of God’s creation and His creation is not easily put asunder.

    It is important that Christians discover why God made viruses and show how they are good, and facilitate humans in living long healthy lives.

    Viruses could be nothing more than a simple but very effective incentive plan for us to live abundantly, and when we are close to death, in our old age, viruses help push us on to the next place in a fitting manner. Or, viruses could be much more complicated in the scheme of life on earth in dealing with entropy. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5580475/

    “All” Christians, today, believe that part of God’s creation, i.e., viruses, are bad. That belief is an untenable position for the creationist/ Christian/ Christianity to survive in. That context for life has churches closed, while drugs and liquor thrive . . . where masked Christian leaders stand silently by while their millions of followers are cowering in fear over God’s good creation. It is tragic.


  • #2
    Imho, a lot of these discussions are swallowed up in simply knowing the scriptures:

    Genesis 1: 17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’ “Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life.
    18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.
    19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.”
    22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
    23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.
    24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.


    Romans 8: 18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.
    19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.
    20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
    21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
    22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
    23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
    24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have?
    25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    ? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Lon View Post
      Imho, a lot of these discussions are swallowed up in simply knowing the scriptures:
      A lot of these discussions are swallowed up in simply knowing that God created in 6 days, then rested and said it was good.

      Muddying the water with post script scriptures does nothing to advance the question Did God create viruses? Did God create our immune system? Is God's creation good? Those questions are yes or no. And of course they are all yes.

      If viruses can't live outside their host, then Adam and Eve had all the viruses by kind. Unless you have some unknown standard of logic you wish to share with me?

      God left it up to us to discover why His creation is all good.

      If your saying that God's creation is not good, please be clear about that point.

      If the context for your life is not Gen 1 "In the beginning God created" . . . . . and it was good, then your life is based on a pretext. All of scripture is based on Gen. 1, and our discussion should be as well.

      Mike


      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by tieman55 View Post

        A lot of these discussions are swallowed up in simply knowing that God created in 6 days, then rested and said it was good.

        Muddying the water with post script scriptures does nothing to advance the question Did God create viruses? Did God create our immune system? Is God's creation good? Those questions are yes or no. And of course they are all yes.

        If viruses can't live outside their host, then Adam and Eve had all the viruses by kind. Unless you have some unknown standard of logic you wish to share with me?

        God left it up to us to discover why His creation is all good.

        If your saying that God's creation is not good, please be clear about that point.

        If the context for your life is not Gen 1 "In the beginning God created" . . . . . and it was good, then your life is based on a pretext. All of scripture is based on Gen. 1, and our discussion should be as well.

        Mike

        Such does not take into account the curse or its effects. We do know God limited our days to 120. How? (speculation). We do know that all creation groans (again wherever that speculation leads). Propositions are fine but must be proved else they are just ideas untested (hypothesis). You have hypothesis here.
        My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
        Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
        Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
        Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
        No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
        Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

        ? Yep

        Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

        ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

        Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Lon View Post

          Such does not take into account the curse or its effects. We do know God limited our days to 120. How? (speculation). We do know that all creation groans (again wherever that speculation leads). Propositions are fine but must be proved else they are just ideas untested (hypothesis). You have hypothesis here.
          To allude to an answer is not an answer.

          Did God create viruses?
          Did He do so during creation?

          Those are not hypothesizes.

          I am only speculating based on what is known, God created and said it was good.

          Here is the question you should ask yourself. If viruses were presumed to be good, would you object to my speculation? I will answer it for you, no of course not. So why not consider that God's creation is good and see where it leads you/me/us

          PS, Let us admit right here and now that mankind/science knows next to nothing about viruses and their purpose in life. So, it is more than possible that someday viruses will be looked at in a completely different light than they are today.
          Last edited by tieman55; July 25, 2020, 06:09 PM. Reason: added context

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by tieman55 View Post

            To allude to an answer is not an answer.

            Did God create viruses?
            Did He do so during creation?
            Scripture seems to indicate it is part of the curse and that's how most people deal with thorns and mosquitoes:


            Genesis 1: 17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’ “Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life.
            18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.
            19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.”
            22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
            23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.
            24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.


            Romans 8: 18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.
            19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.
            20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
            21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

            22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
            23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
            24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have?
            25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

            To me, this is indication that all the 'bad' things are part of the curse. Notice above that part of the curse is that man 'returns to the ground.' Some speculate that Adam and Eve would have died prior to the curse but this verse indicates not.

            Originally posted by tieman55 View Post
            Those are not hypothesizes.

            I am only speculating based on what is known, God created and said it was good.

            Here is the question you should ask yourself. If viruses were presumed to be good, would you object to my speculation? I will answer it for you, no of course not. So why not consider that God's creation is good and see where it leads you/me/us
            "If" and "speculating" are hypothesis. Its a good study, just not 'presentation' worthy yet. Good for discussion on TOL? Absolutely and good job (it grabbed my interest).

            Originally posted by tieman55 View Post
            PS, Let us admit right here and now that mankind/science knows next to nothing about viruses and their purpose in life. So, it is more than possible that someday viruses will be looked at in a completely different light than they are today.
            This is similar for me, to mosquitoes. I hate the nasty bugs. Did they have a good intention once? Or are they part of a cursed creation? It'd seem, from my theology understanding that they are a product of the curse, perhaps they had something beneficial prior, but now carry nasty viruses and infection.
            My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
            Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
            Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
            Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
            No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
            Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

            ? Yep

            Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

            ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

            Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Lon View Post

              Scripture seems to indicate it is part of the curse and that's how most people deal with thorns and mosquitoes:



              "If" and "speculating" are hypothesis. Its a good study, just not 'presentation' worthy yet. Good for discussion on TOL? Absolutely and good job (it grabbed my interest).

              This is similar for me, to mosquitoes. I hate the nasty bugs. Did they have a good intention once? Or are they part of a cursed creation? It'd seem, from my theology understanding that they are a product of the curse, perhaps they had something beneficial prior, but now carry nasty viruses and infection.
              Well agree on that, I hate bugs too LOL

              I got bit by a black widow spider once, I thought I was going to die. Painful and it last about 36 hours, it was not good! LOL Now, I have no idea why God made the black widow spider but I know it is a good thing. God made it and He said it was good and I believe it.

              It is up to us to figure out why it is good. Now you can believe that God made the black widow spider as part of the curse, or that it is good, or as you put it, at some point it became bad. To me it is much more in the character of God to create life that is hard to understand but when all of life is put in the proper context make perfect sense, so I believe God created and then rested. I just don't see God making a black widow spider and all the other things that we could mention here, as a curse to mankind . . . it just doesn't ring true to me.

              As far as nasty viruses and infections. In my world view, Adam had all the viruses and all the bacteria and probably was extremely healthy for close to 1000 years, so there really wan't any nasty viruses and or infections until after the flood. I wish we had scientist discussing those issues, I would find those idea's extremely fascinating.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by tieman55 View Post

                Well agree on that, I hate bugs too LOL

                I got bit by a black widow spider once, I thought I was going to die. Painful and it last about 36 hours, it was not good! LOL Now, I have no idea why God made the black widow spider but I know it is a good thing. God made it and He said it was good and I believe it.

                It is up to us to figure out why it is good. Now you can believe that God made the black widow spider as part of the curse, or that it is good, or as you put it, at some point it became bad. To me it is much more in the character of God to create life that is hard to understand but when all of life is put in the proper context make perfect sense, so I believe God created and then rested. I just don't see God making a black widow spider and all the other things that we could mention here, as a curse to mankind . . . it just doesn't ring true to me.

                As far as nasty viruses and infections. In my world view, Adam had all the viruses and all the bacteria and probably was extremely healthy for close to 1000 years, so there really wan't any nasty viruses and or infections until after the flood. I wish we had scientist discussing those issues, I would find those idea's extremely fascinating.
                It is hard to figure out some of these, but spiders, generally, are good, just not in your house. I'm not sure what the garden looked like, but I agree it was good. Mosquitoes? Maybe like pollinators today Under the curse, black widow spider bites are horrible and you made me cringe with that story. Lots of empathy. I was bit by a mosquito and had to have light surgery over the infection it caused. -Lon
                My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                ? Yep

                Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Lon View Post

                  It is hard to figure out some of these, but spiders, generally, are good, just not in your house. I'm not sure what the garden looked like, but I agree it was good. Mosquitoes? Maybe like pollinators today Under the curse, black widow spider bites are horrible and you made me cringe with that story. Lots of empathy. I was bit by a mosquito and had to have light surgery over the infection it caused. -Lon
                  We do know that some of God's creation are largely just creative apparently not much more, like the Duckbill Platypus comes to mind.

                  he other day I had a big black widow in my garage and my young son, Joey is 10, was just excited as can be over seeing it, watching it and then killing it, so God could have created somethings for just that simple reason. I mean, a child can learn a lot from those types of experiences.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by tieman55 View Post

                    We do know that some of God's creation are largely just creative apparently not much more, like the Duckbill Platypus comes to mind.

                    he other day I had a big black widow in my garage and my young son, Joey is 10, was just excited as can be over seeing it, watching it and then killing it, so God could have created somethings for just that simple reason. I mean, a child can learn a lot from those types of experiences.
                    Perhaps. "It was good" in Genesis may be understood as meeting with His standard and approval, but we generally see the Garden as balanced where Adam and Eve would have lived forever.
                    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                    ? Yep

                    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                    ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Lon View Post
                      We do know that all creation groans (again wherever that speculation leads)




                      The liberal half tends to whine, having rejected God and being unappreciative of His blessings

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ok doser View Post



                        The liberal half tends to whine, having rejected God and being unappreciative of His blessings
                        Some of the odd and 'unassailable' ideas in other threads does tend to give an impression that 'discussion is over.' On TOL, I try to walk that mile in another's shoes but it does have to necessarily lead somewhere or its just another dead end.
                        My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                        Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                        Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                        Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                        No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                        Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                        ? Yep

                        Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                        ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                        Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Lon View Post

                          Perhaps. "It was good" in Genesis may be understood as meeting with His standard and approval, but we generally see the Garden as balanced where Adam and Eve would have lived forever.
                          "Adam and Eve would live forever" , I don't think so.

                          While we don't know the size of the garden, it apparently wasn't that large. How many people could have been supported by the size and scope of the Garden? Certainly not millions or billions of people. The only reason Adam and Eve were sent out of the garden was because that is where the tree of life was. Even in the garden Adam was going to have to tend it. As far as "standard and approval" that is fine as it really is a synonym for good

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by tieman55 View Post
                            Viruses are not technically alive outside of a host. And just how long they can exist outside a host is unknown. So, Adam and Eve had to have had most if not all the viruses by kind, and they lived close to a 1000 years . . . I say that is interesting.
                            So Adam and Eve had viruses like HIV that attack the immune system and Polio that attacks the muscle, Influensa and SARS that attack the respiratory system and even the Black Plague that attacks pretty much everything at once, not to mention the over 200 known viruses that effect human beings? Give me a break!

                            And why stop at viruses? Surely they must also have had all the parasidic deaseases as well! Marlaria, hook worms, tape worms, scabies and head lice! How about brain eating amoebas, did they have those too?

                            I mean seriously! What sort of maniac are you? Do you spend ANY effort at all to think through the implications of such stupidity? Even slobber mouthed flat earthers make more sense than this!
                            sigpic
                            "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tieman55 View Post

                              "Adam and Eve would live forever" , I don't think so.

                              While we don't know the size of the garden, it apparently wasn't that large. How many people could have been supported by the size and scope of the Garden? Certainly not millions or billions of people. The only reason Adam and Eve were sent out of the garden was because that is where the tree of life was. Even in the garden Adam was going to have to tend it. As far as "standard and approval" that is fine as it really is a synonym for good
                              You have a LOT of (apparently unassailable) preconceived notions...
                              My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                              Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                              Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                              Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                              No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                              Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                              ? Yep

                              Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                              ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                              Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                              Comment

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