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Is there a Christian cosmology that doesn't include miracles?

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  • Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    What happened to cause you to reject Him?
    Methinks there is begging of the question of the existence of a Him to reject.

    Stuart

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    • Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post

      He came to die for you, and this is your response?
      My response to your theology would get me banned. Remember, this is a Christian web site. Delve too deeply into the facts put forth by Christianity and ...

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      • Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post

        You mean that you hate Him so much you're willing to reject His existence?

        What happened to cause you to reject Him?
        The presumes there is something to hate and then reject. But, as I have suggested before, any need to accept a literal Bible blows rationality and logic up. Certainly any requirement to accept a young earth, Noah's Flood, Adam and Eve's special creation is irrational and goes against evidence. What follows from that is a rejection of the rest of the story.

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        • Originally posted by Jonahdog View Post

          I guess I am. But I don't hate any god. I think that is simply a waste of energy.
          Obviously you hate God. Why do you waste your energy by hating God?
          What evidence do you have to support your claim that what you call "evidence" is evidence?

          MAGA (Masking America's Gullible Apes)

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          • Originally posted by 7djengo7 View Post

            Obviously you hate God. Why do you waste your energy by hating God?
            Hey 7! The American Psychological Association published a paper on atheists being angry at God. Let's see...

            I know I have that reference around here somewhere...

            Hmm. Oh, it's got to be linked to from rsr.org/atheism!

            Found it! Okay, it's here...
            The Bob Enyart Live talk show airs at KGOV.com weekdays at 5 pm E.T. Also, same time, same station, check out Theology Thursday (.com) and on Fridays, Real Science Radio (.com) a.k.a. rsr.org. All shows are available 24/7 and you can call us at at 1-800-8Enyart.

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            • Originally posted by Bob Enyart View Post

              Hey 7! The American Psychological Association published a paper on atheists being angry at God. Let's see...

              I know I have that reference around here somewhere...

              Hmm. Oh, it's got to be linked to from rsr.org/atheism!

              Found it! Okay, it's here...
              He will have to wait until his ban is over. Could someone who has an account summarize the article and/or with any good quotes? The website said something about having to pay a fee to become a member in order to read it. Thank you. -Lon
              My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
              Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
              Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
              Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
              No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
              Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

              ? Yep

              Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

              ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

              Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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              • Originally posted by Lon View Post
                He will have to wait until his ban is over. Could someone who has an account summarize the article and/or with any good quotes? The website said something about having to pay a fee to become a member in order to read it. Thank you. -Lon
                The link are RSR.org allows you to see the abstract...


                Citation

                Exline, J. J., Park, C. L., Smyth, J. M., & Carey, M. P. (2011). Anger toward God: Social-cognitive predictors, prevalence, and links with adjustment to bereavement and cancer. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 100(1), 129–148. https://doi.org/10.1037/a0021716



                Abstract

                Many people see themselves as being in a relationship with God and see this bond as comforting. Yet, perceived relationships with God also carry the potential for experiencing anger toward God, as shown here in studies with the U.S. population (Study 1), undergraduates (Studies 2 and 3), bereaved individuals (Study 4), and cancer survivors (Study 5). These studies addressed 3 fundamental issues regarding anger toward God: perceptions and attributions that predict anger toward God, its prevalence, and its associations with adjustment. Social-cognitive predictors of anger toward God paralleled predictors of interpersonal anger and included holding God responsible for severe harm, attributions of cruelty, difficulty finding meaning, and seeing oneself as a victim. Anger toward God was frequently reported in response to negative events, although positive feelings predominated. Anger and positive feelings toward God showed moderate negative associations. Religiosity and age correlated negatively with anger toward God. Reports of anger toward God were slightly lower among Protestants and African Americans in comparison with other groups (Study 1). Some atheists and agnostics reported anger involving God, particularly on measures emphasizing past experiences (Study 2) and images of a hypothetical God (Study 3). Anger toward God was associated with poorer adjustment to bereavement (Study 4) and cancer (Study 5), particularly when anger remained unresolved over a 1-year period (Study 5). Taken together, these studies suggest that anger toward God is an important dimension of religious and spiritual experience, one that is measurable, widespread, and related to adjustment across various contexts and populations. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2016 APA, all rights reserved)


                sigpic
                "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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                  sigpic
                  "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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                  • Originally posted by Jonahdog View Post
                    The presumes there is something to hate and then reject.
                    Originally posted by Jonahdog View Post
                    But I don't hate any god.


                    Here, you're presuming there is something to not hate, and you're telling us that that "something" is not hated by you.

                    To be hated, of course, is to exist. But also, to be not hated is to exist, just the same.








                    Last edited by 7djengo7; April 18th, 2020, 04:48 PM.
                    What evidence do you have to support your claim that what you call "evidence" is evidence?

                    MAGA (Masking America's Gullible Apes)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tieman55 View Post
                      I use to love learning about all the proofs that God Created the universe. I especially liked geochronometry.
                      I still enjoy hearing new things as they are discovered on a daily bases that prove a young earth.
                      But a lot of creation science gets a little too far into the weeds for the average person to wittiness with.

                      Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that those things shouldn't be explored, they should be. But it appears so so deep into the weeds . . . that it almost seems like people are trying to convince themselves and not others.

                      From my prospective as a firm believer in a young earth, I think a broader more hypothetical approach would win more converts to the young earth. I would love to see the brilliant minds on this forum tackle, just how God did creation. Was it all miracles?

                      My favorite way to start with a evolutionist is with the joke about the scientist who eventually created life in the lab, using a piece of clay. And as they presented the life to God, of course God says, get your own clay.

                      If, E=MC2 and I think most concede that it probably does, then why can't creationist take M=E/C2 and put it in the place of some or all of the so called miracles.

                      Maybe the term miracle may not be what we think it is. Maybe, just maybe miracle is a figure of speech meaning something like "things that are hard to understand". My understanding is the term "miracle" is defined as actions that violate the laws of physics. If you believe in E=MC2 then I think you have to believe in M=E/C2, or energy into matter that would not violate physics.

                      Miracles are in the eyes of the beholder. If you gave a cell phone to Moses, he would surely call it a miracle. Heck, the amount of diodes they can now get on the head of a pin, makes me think its a miracle! LOL

                      Is there a Christian cosmology that doesn't include miracles? Maybe there should be? Why would God create laws of physics such as He did, only to immediately break them? Or, at least ask the question, if God wanted to create without violating "His" laws of physics, could He do it?
                      Is bringing something into existence from nothing a miracle? From the perspective of a miraculous healing, ie, instantaneous healing, creation would seem to be a far greater accomplishment than simply healing someone instantaneously.

                      Scripturally, it seems that there is always some human ministering that miracle to another, whereas, in God's creative act of Genesis 1:1, no human was involved, does that distinguish creation from the instantaneous show of power called a miracle? I don't know off hand.

                      However, without God, there would be no heaven and earth seeing that God created the heaven and the earth in the beginning
                      "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

                      "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

                      Pro scripture = Protestant

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                      • Originally posted by oatmeal View Post

                        Is bringing something into existence from nothing a miracle? From the perspective of a miraculous healing, ie, instantaneous healing, creation would seem to be a far greater accomplishment than simply healing someone instantaneously.

                        Scripturally, it seems that there is always some human ministering that miracle to another, whereas, in God's creative act of Genesis 1:1, no human was involved, does that distinguish creation from the instantaneous show of power called a miracle? I don't know off hand.

                        However, without God, there would be no heaven and earth seeing that God created the heaven and the earth in the beginning
                        If a miracle is an occurrence in the physical universe which has a super natural cause then, of course, the entire creation week was one miraculous event after another. But, I don't think the OP is looking for a cosmology that contains no miracles at all in the creation process. I think the point he's driving at is that Christians tend to pull out the miracle trump card too quickly any time there is an issue that they don't have a good answer for, which tends to undermine the credibility of the whole construct. That and he's just trying to explore the issue in an attempt to think God's thoughts after Him.
                        sigpic
                        "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Clete View Post
                          If a miracle is an occurrence in the physical universe which has a super natural cause then, of course, the entire creation week was one miraculous event after another. But, I don't think the OP is looking for a cosmology that contains no miracles at all in the creation process. I think the point he's driving at is that Christians tend to pull out the miracle trump card too quickly any time there is an issue that they don't have a good answer for, which tends to undermine the credibility of the whole construct. That and he's just trying to explore the issue in an attempt to think God's thoughts after Him.
                          Yes, I that is a common theme amongst doubters.

                          And it is a fall back position for some.

                          In some cases, it is a weakness to do so, in others, a strength to do so.

                          Do I have have to understand exactly what electricity is and how it powers lightbulbs or motors or how it is used to weld metal for me to be able to enjoy the benefits of electricity?

                          Absolutely not, like wise, I do not have to know everything scientific about cosmology for me to enjoy God's creation.

                          It is enough for me at times simply to enjoy the warmth of the sun without understanding nuclear physics.

                          I can enjoy the stars at night without debating all the "scientific" guesses or the know about the "sciencology", that is, the preferred "theories" of science to enjoy the stars and the moon.

                          God set up the laws of science, so for those who are interested in science to a great degree can learn a little bit about God from studying the heavens and the earth He created.

                          The precision and orderliness of the physical laws that God set up.

                          "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

                          "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

                          Pro scripture = Protestant

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by oatmeal View Post

                            Yes, I that is a common theme amongst doubters.

                            And it is a fall back position for some.

                            In some cases, it is a weakness to do so, in others, a strength to do so.

                            Do I have have to understand exactly what electricity is and how it powers lightbulbs or motors or how it is used to weld metal for me to be able to enjoy the benefits of electricity?

                            Absolutely not, like wise, I do not have to know everything scientific about cosmology for me to enjoy God's creation.

                            It is enough for me at times simply to enjoy the warmth of the sun without understanding nuclear physics.

                            I can enjoy the stars at night without debating all the "scientific" guesses or the know about the "sciencology", that is, the preferred "theories" of science to enjoy the stars and the moon.

                            God set up the laws of science, so for those who are interested in science to a great degree can learn a little bit about God from studying the heavens and the earth He created.

                            The precision and orderliness of the physical laws that God set up.
                            Okay. That's fine and all but I don't see how this adds to the discussion or gives an answer to the OP.
                            sigpic
                            "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Clete View Post

                              Okay. That's fine and all but I don't see how this adds to the discussion or gives an answer to the OP.
                              Because I answered the question. any Christian who actually believes God's word believes that God created the heaven and the earth.

                              Genesis 1:1

                              That makes a lot more sense that assuming that nothing was the cause of nothing becoming something in a moment of time scientists refer to as the big bang.

                              Many scientists were at first repulsed by the idea of a big bang, Because it did not fit their "science"

                              Why do scientists refuse to believe science?
                              "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

                              "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

                              Pro scripture = Protestant

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by oatmeal View Post

                                Because I answered the question. any Christian who actually believes God's word believes that God created the heaven and the earth.

                                Genesis 1:1
                                No one has said otherwise.

                                That makes a lot more sense that assuming that nothing was the cause of nothing becoming something in a moment of time scientists refer to as the big bang.
                                Again, no one has said otherwise. At least not in the OP.

                                Many scientists were at first repulsed by the idea of a big bang, Because it did not fit their "science"

                                Why do scientists refuse to believe science?
                                Because they are leftists first, atheists second and scientists third (at best).

                                Big science is about politics. Scientific endeavor is just their cover.



                                It really feels like you've missed the point of the opening post. He wasn't trying to suggest that Genesis isn't true nor was he trying to make the Genesis account fit into modern cosmology. He's not asking a question about whether God created the universe but about how He went about it.

                                Clete
                                sigpic
                                "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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