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  • Originally posted by Balder
    Kevin, you didn't answer my last post to you, but I'll address another one to you (and Nineveh and Aimiel and other eternal damnationists):

    Does the idea of millions of human beings, including many people you know, being thrown alive into the Lake of Fire prick your conscience at all? If you were in a position to decide the fate of all non-Christians, would you have any moral qualms at all about inflicting an eternal sentence of unimaginable pain on them? Is that what YOU would choose to do to them?
    I have already answered these kinds of questions from you several times Balder. I have seen others answer them as well. You didn't like the answers you got so you keep restating the questions.


    Comment


    • Originally posted by Aionios
      Thanks for the blessing- and may the Lord be with *your* spirit as well.
      When you speak of the "majority of greek scholars", you speak of the majority of *contemporary* or *modern* greek scholars. What sayeth the ancients? Also, is the meaning of the Bible to be determined by scholars? Are they the new popes (meaning they have the keys of interpretation for the Church?) Does the New Testament speak of a group of scholars that God has appointed to determine the will of the Almighty?
      Good grief no! But that is what Universalist "scholars" do when they make bold statements that words don't mean what most scholars have translated them to mean. My point is why do we disregard virtually ALL of the modern Bible translations just because Universalists dont like what they say?

      Universalism is false teaching. See through the haze of lies!

      God bless.


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      • Why do Universalists say they believe that God accomplishes ALL of His will but deny that He could preserve His Word to modern times.............


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        • UNIVERSALISTS VS. JESUS:

          Universalist: Modern translations CANNOT be trusted.

          Jesus: For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
          Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.


          Comment


          • Originally posted by Balder
            Does the idea of millions of human beings, including many people you know, being thrown alive into the Lake of Fire prick your conscience at all? If you were in a position to decide the fate of all non-Christians, would you have any moral qualms at all about inflicting an eternal sentence of unimaginable pain on them? Is that what YOU would choose to do to them?
            Me? I would. Because they thought more of themselves than those who might come to a knowledge of the truth by their witness if they were to spread The Word of God. The suffering and pain of all mankind is laid at the feet of sinners. If there were no sin, there would be no suffering. They deserve their fate, as I did, when I was one. Thank God for His Grace.

            By the way, I'm not an eternal damnationalist, you are. You spread that 'word of death' by not believing in, obeying and spreading The Word of The One True God, Who is The Only Salvation, you are spreading words of death and destruction, allowing who knows how many to die in their sins. I spread The Water of Life: The Word of God; which leads to eternal life. What you spread only keeps men in the dark, so that they will end up in hell. You worship a false god who doesn't even exist.
            "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

            If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

            Comment


            • Originally posted by logos_x
              What Kevin says is true insofar as I do not have a Greek degree. The thing is...even if I did, the scholars themselves are not in agreement.

              Aion is the word from which we get our English word Eon.
              I cited several scholars in my opening for the Battle Royale that clearly disagree with the scholars Kevin wants to cite as backing for His view.

              What I find fascinating is the history behind the doctrine of eternal torment. For the first 500 to 600 years the majority of Christians believed in Universal Salvation through Jesus Christ...as long Greek was the primary language of the Church. One theological school arose in Rome, and using Latin as it's primary language taught eternal torment.

              How eternal torment came to be the "orthodox veiw" after then is a history of the Catholic Church imposing it's "orthodoxy", by force eventually, upon the world. Suddenly, many of the church fathers were declared to be heretics...including the composer of the first systematic theology of the church...of which universal salvation through Jesus Christ was a primary pillar.

              This all began because aionios was translated into Latin as "aeternum" when it is associated with punishment.

              Why did the majority of the Christian world believe that all men would be saved and judgements were a part of that process so long as Greek was their primary language...and then that all changed when the Latin speaking Roman Church imposed it's dominion upon Europe?

              Most of the arguments for eternal torment...which was first put into a systematic theology by Augustine... was written to convince Christians that did not believe in eternal torment of it's fidelity to God's revelation of Himself. Most of those arguments failed miserably.

              The Catholic Church began killing people that disagreed with them...among them believers that Jesus Christ would save all men. their writings were declared ananthema...and burned or otherwise discredited. Many died at the hands of church "leadership". Things got so bad that if anyone did not agree with the Catholic doctrine they would never admit it.

              Until the reformation...the Church didn't even remotely resemble what the Bible taught anymore.

              Given that kind of history...coupled with the fact that the majority of Greek speaking Christians did not believe in unending misery...leads me to one conclusion: The doctrine of eternal torment was a strong delusion that took hold of the Chrurch from ouside the teaching of scripture...and it did so 600 years after the beginning of the Church!

              The good news is...we still have scholars that will recognize these facts and not sweep them under the rug. These are the ones I choose to trust.
              So it is your position that the early church deliberately misguided people and created a doctrine that did not exist in early Christians? Why did Polycarp John's direct disciple believe in eternal torment then? You have never attempted to answer that question...........
              I guess Polycarp didn't know how to speak Greek?


              Comment


              • Originally posted by PastorKevin
                Why do Universalists say they believe that God accomplishes ALL of His will but deny that He could preserve His Word to modern times.............
                They're not thinking, they're proof-texting. The things they do are obvious to everyone but themselves.
                "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

                If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

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                • Originally posted by Aimiel
                  They're not thinking, they're proof-texting. The things they do are obvious to everyone but themselves.
                  Well said.


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                  • I got it. The early church was more powerful than Jesus and able to keep Him from fulfilling His promise to preserve His Word. Man I wish I had seen this before. Sure am glad for the Universalists.


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                    • Originally posted by PastorKevin
                      Well said.
                      It's on fire inside of my very bones. I have to speak, or the rocks will cry out!!!
                      "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

                      If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by PastorKevin
                        I have already answered these kinds of questions from you several times Balder. I have seen others answer them as well. You didn't like the answers you got so you keep restating the questions.
                        Well, you ignored my last post to you, and I believe others as well. Was your answer, No, it doesn't bother you morally?
                        "Perhaps everything terrible is in its deepest being something that needs our love" ~ Rainer Maria Rilke

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                        • Originally posted by PastorKevin
                          I got it. The early church was more powerful than Jesus and able to keep Him from fulfilling His promise to preserve His Word. Man I wish I had seen this before. Sure am glad for the Universalists.
                          Taken to the extreme (that The Word of God is in error) you end up with Islam. Circumventing The Word of God altogether is SDA's, and many other cults. Why throw out orthodoxy, when it is clear that The Word of God means exactly what It says? Why not simply believe God, instead of a big pile of teachers feeding your itching ears? Why not follow Him, instead of those who claim to know 'about' Him?
                          "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

                          If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

                          Comment


                          • It's clear that Aimiel has no compunction about people being tortured for eternity as "just punishment."

                            It's a clear gap in moral reasoning that separates the Universalists from the Damnationalists, in my opinion.
                            "Perhaps everything terrible is in its deepest being something that needs our love" ~ Rainer Maria Rilke

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Balder
                              Well, you ignored my last post to you, and I believe others as well. Was your answer, No, it doesn't bother you morally?
                              I have submitted myself to the Lord and to His Word, so no because the Bible teaches that God will judge righteously. Now we know in part, then we will understand in full, and there will be no railing accusations that can be made against God. God doesn't judge according to man's wisdom. God is a perfect and holy God and the penalty for sin is death (physical and spiritual). UNTIL an individual humbles himself and comes to God on God's terms and not on his own terms, he is lost and will die in his sins and spend eternity in torment. Jesus took upon Himself OUR death penalty. All we need to do is trust Him and believe in Him.

                              God has made an excellent way OUT from the judgment that mankind has earned and deserves. He provided His Son as a sacrifice. What bothers me morally is people who SPIT on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and reject Him, and then make railing accusations against God. That bothers me quite a bit.
                              Does it bother me to know that I have friends and loved ones that will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire? Yes of course it does. That is one of the reasons WHY I BURN with THE PASSION to reach them and as many as possible with the GOSPEL OF GRACE!

                              He who knew no sin became sin for us! Praise the Lord!


                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Balder
                                It's clear that Aimiel has no compunction about people being tortured for eternity as "just punishment."
                                As a Christian, and having been a sinner for much of my life, I know that sinners deserve their fate.
                                It's a clear gap in moral reasoning that separates the Universalists from the Damnationalists, in my opinion.
                                Wonder where Christians stand in your opinion. You being a 'damnationalist' and all.
                                "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

                                If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

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