BRXII Battle talk

[logos_x]

There we have it. Thank you for finally admitting that is what you believe.

Kevin, I thought it was very obvious all along that the salvation of all was the good news and it is what I believe.



However, you are phrasing everything with a spin so as to trap me.

I noticed that you avoided my question:

Is eternal torment the Gospel? Is That what saves people.


Now...your concern for Balder is that somehow he will be lost if he does not come to believe what YOU are saying concerning the outcome of the work of Christ. My faith is in Christ and HIS ability to save...not in any flawed presentation of the gospel.

Jesus is the savior of all men. He is the savior of the world.
He can't be the savior of all men unless he saves all men...and he cannot be the savior of the world unless He saves the world. That simply means that, since faith is needed to be saved, God must give faith to all men.

The doctrine of eternal torment says, simply, that He won't for the majority of mankind. Ever.

What I find disturbing is that you have tied the work of Christ completely to the doctrine of eternal torment. So much so that for you, if eternal torment is shown to be false, then the gospel is then false. This in spite of all the things that refute the tradition that are Biblical and reasonable.

My concern is what God thinks, not what people think. My concern is what God says, not what Balder says or what you say.

Your concern is what this doctrine of eternal torment says, which is not what God thinks and says.

I honestly don't know what else I can say that would make you re-consider what the doctrine really represents. You didn't challenge me to a Battle Royale to hear my views to begin with, and had no intention of learning anything from me.

If your ears are closed and there is no way you will ever change your views because you are convinced there is no way that you could possibly be wrong, then I really do not have either the time or the energy for further dialog. And frankly, your continued attempts to paint me into your corner is by now so obvious to those reading this thread that the only way that they see it as fruitful is if they happen to agree with you already and will not be convinced no matter what.

Have a wonderful day!

 

[logos_x]

Wowzers logos



Even if they don't have faith? Like balder?

Faith in what, Nin?

For faith to be valid, it must be placed in something that is true.
Jesus died, and rose again. He is the propitiation for our sins...and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world.

People can't have faith in that if they don't know about it, or if it is obscured by doctrines that twist into a performance based religion.

Everyone's salvation has been purchased for them, they just don't know about it or do not see it clearly, and therefore don't believe it to be true, or don't recognize what it means.

It's still true.

 

[Nineveh]

Faith in what, Nin?

Why don't you tell me, logos...

"What saves a person is God's active Grace, which works through faith."

For faith to be valid, it must be placed in something that is true.
Jesus died, and rose again. He is the propitiation for our sins...and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world.

People can't have faith in that if they don't know about it, or if it is obscured by doctrines that twist into a performance based religion.

Everyone's salvation has been purchased for them, they just don't know about it or do not see it clearly, and therefore don't believe it to be true, or don't recognize what it means.

You seem to be saying people are saved by Grace through faith, even if they have no faith.

 

[logos_x]

Why don't you tell me, logos...

"What saves a person is God's active Grace, which works through faith."



You seem to be saying people are saved by Grace through faith, even if they have no faith.

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
(Rom 3:3 KJV)

What I'm saying is it is true, that is why believing it is valid.

Now, salvation is realized through faith...because it IS true. Our message should enable people to see it as true...not as though faith magically makes it true...but because it is true, so believe it. If one does not believe it they aren't making it untrue, they just don't believe what is true.

 

[PKevman]

Kevin, I thought it was very obvious all along that the salvation of all was the good news and it is what I believe.



However, you are phrasing everything with a spin so as to trap me.

I noticed that you avoided my question:

Is eternal torment the Gospel? Is That what saves people.


Now...your concern for Balder is that somehow he will be lost if he does not come to believe what YOU are saying concerning the outcome of the work of Christ. My faith is in Christ and HIS ability to save...not in any flawed presentation of the gospel.

Jesus is the savior of all men. He is the savior of the world.
He can't be the savior of all men unless he saves all men...and he cannot be the savior of the world unless He saves the world. That simply means that, since faith is needed to be saved, God must give faith to all men.

The doctrine of eternal torment says, simply, that He won't for the majority of mankind. Ever.

What I find disturbing is that you have tied the work of Christ completely to the doctrine of eternal torment. So much so that for you, if eternal torment is shown to be false, then the gospel is then false. This in spite of all the things that refute the tradition that are Biblical and reasonable.



Your concern is what this doctrine of eternal torment says, which is not what God thinks and says.

I honestly don't know what else I can say that would make you re-consider what the doctrine really represents. You didn't challenge me to a Battle Royale to hear my views to begin with, and had no intention of learning anything from me.

If your ears are closed and there is no way you will ever change your views because you are convinced there is no way that you could possibly be wrong, then I really do not have either the time or the energy for further dialog. And frankly, your continued attempts to paint me into your corner is by now so obvious to those reading this thread that the only way that they see it as fruitful is if they happen to agree with you already and will not be convinced no matter what.

Have a wonderful day!

Actually you are the one who is obsessed with talking about eternal torment and attempting to show how wicked it is. My whole point on this was that Christ is the only way to a relationship with God.

I did not try to paint you into a corner and you are assuming way too much, but think what you will. I simply was trying to clarify WHAT you believe because you avoid direct questions about it. So now you have CLEARLY stated that belief in the salvation of all IS the Gospel. My question is where does it say that in the Bible? IF you say you believe what the Bible says, can you show me where it says belief in the salvation of all IS the Gospel?
And to say that I never answered your question in regards to whether eternal torment is the gospel or not is completely and utterly dishonest Stephen.

I said:

IS BELIEF IN THE SALVATION OF ALL (i.e. Universal Reconciliation) THE GOSPEL? Is THAT what saves a person?

You said:

Yes, the belief in the salvation of all is the Gospel.

No spinning and no twisting was needed on my behalf. You plainly spelled out what you believe. Now you seem to be backpedaling away for some reason. I wonder why that is?

Now let's examine your accusation against me in detail:

You said:

I noticed that you avoided my question:

Is eternal torment the Gospel? Is That what saves people.

Ok, so IF I avoided your question and did not answer it, then you would have a valid point. Let's see if what you say lines up with the facts. Here was your original question:

Is belief in eternal torment the gospel? Is THAT what saves a person?

And surprise. Here was my answer.

Nope and I never said such a thing, unlike what you just admitted, that belief in the salvation of all is the Gospel!

Now I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you just missed my answer. Or did you in fact read it and still make the claim that I avoided your question?

You have a wonderful day as well.

 

[Nineveh]

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
(Rom 3:3 KJV)

According to John?

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

According to Paul?

"...confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

What I'm saying is it is true, that is why believing it is valid.

I don't mean to be rude, but it's what you are trying to say that is losing me here. One one hand you say it Grace through faith that saves, on the other it's just Grace.

Now, salvation is realized through faith...because it IS true. Our message should enable people to see it as true...not as though faith magically makes it true...but because it is true, so believe it. If one does not believe it they aren't making it untrue, they just don't believe what is true.

What does this mean to balder? God is now going to force faith on him?

 

[logos_x]

According to John?

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

According to Paul?

"...confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."



I don't mean to be rude, but it's what you are trying to say that is losing me here. One one hand you say it Grace through faith that saves, on the other it's just Grace.



What does this mean to balder? God is now going to force faith on him?

Is grace not true? Does faith make it true, or are we placing faith in something that is true?

It doesn't require force, Kevin, for someone to see what is true and believe it is true.

 

[logos_x]

Actually you are the one who is obsessed with talking about eternal torment and attempting to show how wicked it is. My whole point on this was that Christ is the only way to a relationship with God.

I did not try to paint you into a corner and you are assuming way too much, but think what you will. I simply was trying to clarify WHAT you believe because you avoid direct questions about it. So now you have CLEARLY stated that belief in the salvation of all IS the Gospel. My question is where does it say that in the Bible? IF you say you believe what the Bible says, can you show me where it says belief in the salvation of all IS the Gospel?
And to say that I never answered your question in regards to whether eternal torment is the gospel or not is completely and utterly dishonest Stephen.

I said:



You said:



No spinning and no twisting was needed on my behalf. You plainly spelled out what you believe. Now you seem to be backpedaling away for some reason. I wonder why that is?

Now let's examine your accusation against me in detail:

You said:



Ok, so IF I avoided your question and did not answer it, then you would have a valid point. Let's see if what you say lines up with the facts. Here was your original question:


And surprise. Here was my answer.



Now I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you just missed my answer. Or did you in fact read it and still make the claim that I avoided your question?

You have a wonderful day as well.

Kevin, I don't know why you think I'm avoiding anything. I have always given direct answers.

The question you asked connects what I believe about judgements to the Gospel. I asked the same sort of question in return...to which you say that you never said any such thing without recognizing that you asked me the same kind of question.

The salvation of all men is the Gospel was my response. You on the other hand will not say that eternal torment is the Gospel.

What does this tell you?

 

[Nineveh]

Is grace not true? Does faith make it true, or are we placing faith in something that is true?

It doesn't require force, Kevin, for someone to see what is true and believe it is true.

logos are you running around this mulberry bush for a reason? It's a simple question, how about a simple answer?

You said: What saves a person is God's active Grace, which works through faith.

I asked: Even if they don't have faith?

How is it this can "work" when half of your equation is missing?

 

[logos_x]

logos are you running around this mulberry bush for a reason? It's a simple question, how about a simple answer?

You said: What saves a person is God's active Grace, which works through faith.

I asked: Even if they don't have faith?

How is it this can "work" when half of your equation is missing?

They have to know about it before it can be believed.

It isn't running around anything.

Ihave to go to work now....so to save time I will quote Martin Zender, because I could not say it any better anyway...

Apparently, you think that Paul preached the false gospel that your church preaches, that human beings must exercise sufficient will power to be saved. Not at all. Paul based salvation on Christ, not on the will power of humanity. Paul based salvation on the blood of the cross, not on man’s ability or inability to appropriate that work. The cross saved. And yet it appears you believe that the cross did not save, but rather only provided human beings with an opportunity to save themselves by believing. It does matter whether or not a person believes in this lifetime; it is a matter of eonian life and eonian death. But this belief comes from God, not the human, otherwise we have salvation by human will power. Paul wished that all would believe in this lifetime. And yet he did not know who God had set ahead of time for eonian life (Acts 13:48). I guarantee you that those who were chosen beforehand for eonian life, would be called to it in this lifetime (Romans 8:30) and given the faith to believe (Romans 12:3, Phil. 1:29).​

.

It is difficult to discuss this whole thing when so many divergent theological ideas come into play...but I will stick with what Paul had faith in, not what the various people here want him to have said.

 

[Nineveh]

They have to know about it before it can be believed.

They have to have faith before they can have faith?

It isn't running around anything.

You'll have to pardon me if I can not agree with you on this point.

Ihave to go to work now....so to save time I will quote Martin Zender, because I could not say it any better anyway...

Apparently, you think that Paul preached the false gospel that your church preaches, that human beings must exercise sufficient will power to be saved. Not at all. Paul based salvation on Christ, not on the will power of humanity. Paul based salvation on the blood of the cross, not on man’s ability or inability to appropriate that work. The cross saved. And yet it appears you believe that the cross did not save, but rather only provided human beings with an opportunity to save themselves by believing. It does matter whether or not a person believes in this lifetime; it is a matter of eonian life and eonian death. But this belief comes from God, not the human, otherwise we have salvation by human will power. Paul wished that all would believe in this lifetime. And yet he did not know who God had set ahead of time for eonian life (Acts 13:48). I guarantee you that those who were chosen beforehand for eonian life, would be called to it in this lifetime (Romans 8:30) and given the faith to believe (Romans 12:3, Phil. 1:29).​

.

It is difficult to discuss this whole thing when so many divergent theological ideas come into play...but I will stick with what Paul had faith in, not what the various people here want him to have said.

Paul was plain. Confess and believe in your heart. The question you aren't answering is how your equation of Grace through faith works without faith (believing in your heart).

 

[Balder]

I already have faith. I just don't believe the same things many of you do.

 

[Solaris]

We have already been down this road before in other threads. I know that those who deny that the Lake of Fire is eternal will attempt to say that this isn't in regards to the Lake of Fire. But it is only because they are purposely trying to ignore it.

Do you not see references to hell and a fiery furnace, outer darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth? Are you reading a different Bible?

It is also the place of hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

In fact just in the book of Matthew alone there are SCORES of mentions of eternal punishment from the LORD Himself!

Matthew 3:10

10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 3:12

12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”


Matthew 5:30

30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

Matthew 7:19

19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 8:12

12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 10:28

28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

WHERE WILL THERE BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH?

Matthew 13:50

50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”


Matthew 13:40

40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.

Matthew 18:8-9

8 “If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.
9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 22:13

13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Being cast into outer darkness=being cast into the Lake of Fire, the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth! It is the same event that these Scriptures are speaking of. You would have to be hard-hearted (or headed) to deny this.

Here are some further quotes from the Lord Jesus JUST FROM THE BOOK OF MATTHEW ALONE!

23:33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?"

24:51 " … and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

25:30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Jesus spoke about eternal punishment frequently. He would not be accepted by the Universalists who post on this website. I implore you to seek God in His Word alone and ignore what other people are telling you.

In the love of Jesus Christ the Lord and Savior,

Kevin

Do you believe the lake of fire to be an actual fire or something altogether symbolic? It makes no sense to think that a physical fire could exist in darkness as a fire supplies both heat and light, it is also incredulous to think that people would 'weep' in a fire as well if they are being tormented with flames. This is why I do not think the passages containing these words mean eternal lasting torment, the parables were full of messages and even the passages containing 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' dont say that it is eternal, in fact the passages where in your Bible it says everlasting destruction actually translate as 'age during' in translations that I've read.
I'm afraid if that means that I'm 'hard headed' then it will have to be the case, hard heartedness is in the realm of the horror of eternal torment where all hope is lost...

 

[PKevman]

Kevin, I don't know why you think I'm avoiding anything. I have always given direct answers.

I think it is the truth you are avoiding because you know what the truth is.

The question you asked connects what I believe about judgements to the Gospel. I asked the same sort of question in return...to which you say that you never said any such thing without recognizing that you asked me the same kind of question.

And the point I made stands. I have never once said or hinted that belief in eternal judgment is the gospel. Never once. Because it isn't. But YOU have said that belief that all will be saved i.e. Universalism, i.e. Universal Reconciliation IS the Gospel. So please don't be a hypocrite Stephen. You are above that.
The reasons why I asked that question is because you have basically avoided saying it that clearly before and I wanted to get a direct response from you as to whether or not you ACTUALLY believe that belief in salvation of all is in fact the Gospel. Now I know clearly that is what you believe and we can move forward in the discussion and examine to see if that is in fact a Biblical belief or not.

The salvation of all men is the Gospel was my response. You on the other hand will not say that eternal torment is the Gospel.

Let's see, how else can I put this....that's because it ain't the Gospel anymore than belief in the salvation of all is the gospel.

What does this tell you?

Ummm that I'm being honest?

 

[PKevman]

Do you believe the lake of fire to be an actual fire or something altogether symbolic? It makes no sense to think that a physical fire could exist in darkness as a fire supplies both heat and light, it is also incredulous to think that people would 'weep' in a fire as well if they are being tormented with flames. This is why I do not think the passages containing these words mean eternal lasting torment, the parables were full of messages and even the passages containing 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' dont say that it is eternal, in fact the passages where in your Bible it says everlasting destruction actually translate as 'age during' in translations that I've read.
I'm afraid if that means that I'm 'hard headed' then it will have to be the case, hard heartedness is in the realm of the horror of eternal torment where all hope is lost...

Solaris, no offense but I have already been down this road with Red so many times on these issues that you wouldn't need to go back to far in the thread to find my answers. The short end of it is yes I believe the lake of fire is a real place where the fire is never quenched and where Satan, the false prophet, the beast, the fallen angels, those who take the mark of the Beast, and all of those whose names are not found written in the book of life will spend all eternity there in conscious torment. People on fire can in fact cry out in agony which has also been addressed.

 

[Solaris]

Solaris, no offense but I have already been down this road with Red so many times on these issues that you wouldn't need to go back to far in the thread to find my answers. The short end of it is yes I believe the lake of fire is a real place where the fire is never quenched and where Satan, the false prophet, the beast, the fallen angels, those who take the mark of the Beast, and all of those whose names are not found written in the book of life will spend all eternity there in conscious torment. People on fire can in fact cry out in agony which has also been addressed.

Crying out in agony yes I agree, but weeping is not the same thing

 

[Balder]

Solaris, no offense but I have already been down this road with Red so many times on these issues that you wouldn't need to go back to far in the thread to find my answers. The short end of it is yes I believe the lake of fire is a real place where the fire is never quenched and where Satan, the false prophet, the beast, the fallen angels, those who take the mark of the Beast, and all of those whose names are not found written in the book of life will spend all eternity there in conscious torment. People on fire can in fact cry out in agony which has also been addressed.

Would you also grant that people who can be "on fire" forever must have indestructable bodies? And that God would have to provide them with such bodies in order to insure that they burn eternally?

 

[Solaris]

Kevin, I thought it was very obvious all along that the salvation of all was the good news and it is what I believe.



However, you are phrasing everything with a spin so as to trap me.

I noticed that you avoided my question:

Is eternal torment the Gospel? Is That what saves people.


Now...your concern for Balder is that somehow he will be lost if he does not come to believe what YOU are saying concerning the outcome of the work of Christ. My faith is in Christ and HIS ability to save...not in any flawed presentation of the gospel.

Jesus is the savior of all men. He is the savior of the world.
He can't be the savior of all men unless he saves all men...and he cannot be the savior of the world unless He saves the world. That simply means that, since faith is needed to be saved, God must give faith to all men.

The doctrine of eternal torment says, simply, that He won't for the majority of mankind. Ever.

What I find disturbing is that you have tied the work of Christ completely to the doctrine of eternal torment. So much so that for you, if eternal torment is shown to be false, then the gospel is then false. This in spite of all the things that refute the tradition that are Biblical and reasonable.



Your concern is what this doctrine of eternal torment says, which is not what God thinks and says.

I honestly don't know what else I can say that would make you re-consider what the doctrine really represents. You didn't challenge me to a Battle Royale to hear my views to begin with, and had no intention of learning anything from me.

If your ears are closed and there is no way you will ever change your views because you are convinced there is no way that you could possibly be wrong, then I really do not have either the time or the energy for further dialog. And frankly, your continued attempts to paint me into your corner is by now so obvious to those reading this thread that the only way that they see it as fruitful is if they happen to agree with you already and will not be convinced no matter what.

Have a wonderful day!

Yes, how can it be wrong to believe that God is completely sucessful in his scarifice to save the world? for eternal torment to be correct then Jesus could never be the saviour of all men or the world itself, instead most of the world is lost to a gigantic torture chamber of either a literal or symbolic nature, I've noticed that noone who believes in eternal torment disagrees that the vast majority of the world is doomed to suffer interminably...I believe that God has a bit of a more positive outcome for his own creation than that, after all, he works things out in accordance with his own will

 

[PKevman]

What is The Gospel?

What is The Gospel?

In order to combat more false teaching from Universalism, let's examine what the Bible has to say about THE Gospel.

Universalism says that BELIEF IN THE SALVATION OF ALL IS THE GOSPEL.

Does that line up with Scripture?

The Bible says:

1 Cor. 15:1-4

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

Where in this text does it say that belief in the salvation of all is the gospel? Answer: It doesn't, because it isn't. The arrogance of the false teaching of Universal Reconcilation has once again brought it crashing down.

The Gospel is in fact the "Good news". That is why people spending eternity in the Lake of Fire is NOT the Good News! The Gospel is that Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the Third Day, ALL ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES. That is the Gospel. Putting faith and trust in THAT Gospel is what saves a person!

Romans 10:9-13 spells this out for us clearly:

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

THIS is the good news. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that belief in the salvation of all is the gospel. That is a manmade doctrine!

Paul said in Galatians 1:6-9

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

There is only ONE Gospel! And that Gospel is NOT "the belief in the salvation of all".

 

[PKevman]

The salvation of all men is the Gospel was my response. You on the other hand will not say that eternal torment is the Gospel.

This just continues to blow my mind. Stephen we will not say that eternal torment is the Gospel because it is NOT the Gospel. You people keep trying to say we believe that but you are wrong we don't believe that and I have never said that.

And by the way, you said:

The salvation of all men is the Gospel was my response

That is not in fact what you said Stephen. Here is what I asked:

IS BELIEF IN THE SALVATION OF ALL (i.e. Universal Reconciliation) THE GOSPEL? Is THAT what saves a person?

You answered:

Yes, the belief in the salvation of all is the Gospel.

I would like to know how I am trying to twist things and misquote you? You clearly said THE BELIEF in the salvation of all IS the Gospel.

But either way, the salvation of all is not the Gospel and the BELIEF in the salvation of all is NOT the Gospel.

There is only one Gospel Stephen. Which do you say it is? The salvation of all, or the BELIEF in the salvation of all?