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  • This is a joke. you accuse me of acting 'childish' and yet again you leave me with a neg rep - with no actual comment about the post - and you expect me to think you're mature in this? could you not answer me on the thread or at least give reasons for the neg in my rep box? This is certainly one childish thing you cannot accuse me of pastor! Nor anyone else here..........
    As far as I'm concerned Jackson hit it right on the head with his response on the TOL hero thread.......
    "Either these curtains go or I do...."

    - Oscar Wilde on deathbed

    Comment


    • I neg repped you because you deserved it for being a lying hypocrite. Have a good night.


      Comment


      • Originally posted by PastorKevin
        Specifically restate any question you think I have not answered throughout the entirety of this debate. I will not play your games. And you still haven't answered the question.
        There arent any games - certainly not from my side, they were posts addressed to you awaiting a response - its up to you if you will address them or not,

        i'll answer yours anyway though, even if 'days' were to consist of a day and a night as we perceive them now - then even if there were no rest that wouldnt by any means indicate a literal fire! So why do you think that Knight thinks you're wrong about that?
        "Either these curtains go or I do...."

        - Oscar Wilde on deathbed

        Comment


        • Originally posted by red77
          There was just no neeed for it IMO, it was brought up in a spectualarly tactless thread by Just Tom which you're well aware of as well as other threads - so why bring it up here and now? It was already clear
          Ok, so it's clear and the truth spoken in open forum, so what is so evil about using her experience as an example? I am not speaking ill of the dead, nor trying to exploit her, this is her life and what she believes and why. I wanted to know if this is logos's reason as well.

          The only other thing uni has is bad translation in a handful of obscure versions of Scripture.

          and that makes the abandoning of a horrific doctrine any less valid does it?
          Yes, the lake is horrific. That's why we need to tell as many people about Christ as possible, so less people we love wind up there.


          I wonder if any of you actually were forced to confront severe pain would be able to be so blase about it
          The issue isn't experiencing pain, we all do, it's called living. The issue is what you do with it. Do you ignore it and the harsh realities by wishing them away, or do you shake your fist at God, or do you turn to the Prince of Peace?


          whats more I know that Kim hasnt relied on her 'feelings' on the matter much as you would like it to be so to trash her beliefs as 'sentimental' or some such.....that isnt the case as many of her posts will testify to on this site......
          Ok, if there is more on the issue, by all means please share. Where are the verses that limit the lake.

          Yes of course, God doesnt say anything about working all things out within the counsel of his will, he doesnt will all men to find the truth, he actually created the world knowing that most of it was going to go to hell and he couldnt do anything to stop it.......
          He did everything to stop it except stop men from wanting it.

          why not act like someone with some tact and empathy, you may find it goes a whole lot further in witnessing to folk......
          I obviously can't live up to your standard of witnessing.
          Help for

          "...the Reformation broke with Rome but not Greece..." - Bob Enyart

          Comment


          • Originally posted by PastorKevin
            I neg repped you because you deserved it for being a lying hypocrite. Have a good night.
            Please show me what I was lying about pastor- otherwise this is just a cheap ad hominem and petty and childish to boot, I wont return the petty favour as you should be well aware by now anyway that I wouldnt
            have a good night yourself....
            "Either these curtains go or I do...."

            - Oscar Wilde on deathbed

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Nineveh
              Ok, so it's clear and the truth spoken in open forum, so what is so evil about using her experience as an example? I am not speaking ill of the dead, nor trying to exploit her, this is her life and what she believes and why. I wanted to know if this is logos's reason as well.

              The only other thing uni has is bad translation in a handful of obscure versions of Scripture.



              Yes, the lake is horrific. That's why we need to tell as many people about Christ as possible, so less people we love wind up there.




              The issue isn't experiencing pain, we all do, it's called living. The issue is what you do with it. Do you ignore it and the harsh realities by wishing them away, or do you shake your fist at God, or do you turn to the Prince of Peace?




              Ok, if there is more on the issue, by all means please share. Where are the verses that limit the lake.



              He did everything to stop it except stop men from wanting it.



              I obviously can't live up to your standard of witnessing.
              All i've got to say to you Nineveh is that you can carry on believing what you will, I wont limit God to the monstrous doctrine you and others have enveleoped yourself with, scriptures have abounded that speak of God's plan to restore (gasp) his own creation but no matter what I doubt you'd believe that he could achieve it,

              peace

              Red
              "Either these curtains go or I do...."

              - Oscar Wilde on deathbed

              Comment


              • Originally posted by red77
                Please show me what I was lying about pastor- otherwise this is just a cheap ad hominem and petty and childish to boot, I wont return the petty favour as you should be well aware by now anyway that I wouldnt
                have a good night yourself....
                liar, liar, pants in eternal fire?
                1 John 4:7-8 "Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love."

                Comment


                • You accused me of misrepresenting kimberlyann.

                  Originally posted by red77
                  whats more I know that Kim hasnt relied on her 'feelings' on the matter much as you would like it to be so to trash her beliefs as 'sentimental' or some such.....that isnt the case as many of her posts will testify to on this site......
                  Ok, if there is more on the issue, by all means please share. Where are the verses that limit the lake.
                  Help for

                  "...the Reformation broke with Rome but not Greece..." - Bob Enyart

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by PastorKevin
                    Even your messed up translation cannot fully obscure the finality of the judgment in this text. It also says they have no rest day or night. The attempt to rewrite Scripture falls short yet again. When you stand before the Lord one day you will have to give an account for how you steadfastly REFUSED to listen to His Word that was presented plainly to you!

                    If the fire is NOT unending OR literal, why does it say that they have NO REST day or night?

                    "No rest day or night" by itself doesn't prove your point. His point is that there is no rest day or night for the ages of the ages (am I right here logos?)
                    Example- "I will leave the electricity on day and night for 10 years"- the "day and night" part of it is not saying that it is forever. For that you have to prove that it means literally for ever and ever in Greek. If you can, I am sold.
                    Where do I stand? I am studying it, not sure yet.
                    aionios

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Aionios
                      "No rest day or night" by itself doesn't prove your point. His point is that there is no rest day or night for the ages of the ages (am I right here logos?)
                      Example- "I will leave the electricity on day and night for 10 years"- the "day and night" part of it is not saying that it is forever. For that you have to prove that it means literally for ever and ever in Greek. If you can, I am sold.
                      Where do I stand? I am studying it, not sure yet.
                      aionios
                      Welcome but with all due respect we have been over this throughout this thread and in the Battle Royale. You might look back at the Battle Royale in particular as I went into explaining these things there. Read Round #2 HERE
                      The point is that they would have no rest day or night forever and ever just as the Scriptures say. Universalism doesn't follow the Scriptures on these things. The onus is not on ME to "prove that it means literally for ever and ever in the Greek". The onus is on the Universalist to prove why all of the wonderful Greek scholars that have translated our modern Bibles are less capable of translating Greek than Universalists. I would understand if I were coming out of left field here and saying that (for example) a Greek word taught that men could leap off of buildings and fly. I would be hard pressed to find ANY Greek scholars to demonstrate that is what those words meant.

                      IF HOWEVER, the vast majority of Greek scholars who have translated our modern Bibles (and virtually ALL of the translations going back through time as well), have translated these words to mean eternal and forever, then the ONUS is on the Universalist to refute the qualifications of THOSE scholars to translate Greek. It is silly that all of those Greek scholars who have worked so hard to translate the Bible have their translations completely ignored by Universalists who are attempting to avoid any translations that don't agree with their theology.

                      Logos for example says that Aion and its derivatives CANNOT mean forever. But he has never shown why HE is more qualified than the Greek scholars who DO translate it as such. Logos has no Greek degree that he has spoken of, and yet he is to be believed over people such as Vine and Strong?

                      God bless and have a great night.


                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by PastorKevin
                        Welcome but with all due respect we have been over this throughout this thread and in the Battle Royale. You might look back at the Battle Royale in particular as I went into explaining these things there. Read Round #2 HERE
                        The point is that they would have no rest day or night forever and ever just as the Scriptures say. Universalism doesn't follow the Scriptures on these things. The onus is not on ME to "prove that it means literally for ever and ever in the Greek". The onus is on the Universalist to prove why all of the wonderful Greek scholars that have translated our modern Bibles are less capable of translating Greek than Universalists. I would understand if I were coming out of left field here and saying that (for example) a Greek word taught that men could leap off of buildings and fly. I would be hard pressed to find ANY Greek scholars to demonstrate that is what those words meant.

                        IF HOWEVER, the vast majority of Greek scholars who have translated our modern Bibles (and virtually ALL of the translations going back through time as well), have translated these words to mean eternal and forever, then the ONUS is on the Universalist to refute the qualifications of THOSE scholars to translate Greek. It is silly that all of those Greek scholars who have worked so hard to translate the Bible have their translations completely ignored by Universalists who are attempting to avoid any translations that don't agree with their theology.

                        Logos for example says that Aion and its derivatives CANNOT mean forever. But he has never shown why HE is more qualified than the Greek scholars who DO translate it as such. Logos has no Greek degree that he has spoken of, and yet he is to be believed over people such as Vine and Strong?

                        God bless and have a great night.
                        What Kevin says is true insofar as I do not have a Greek degree. The thing is...even if I did, the scholars themselves are not in agreement.

                        Aion is the word from which we get our English word Eon.
                        I cited several scholars in my opening for the Battle Royale that clearly disagree with the scholars Kevin wants to cite as backing for His view.

                        What I find fascinating is the history behind the doctrine of eternal torment. For the first 500 to 600 years the majority of Christians believed in Universal Salvation through Jesus Christ...as long Greek was the primary language of the Church. One theological school arose in Rome, and using Latin as it's primary language taught eternal torment.

                        How eternal torment came to be the "orthodox veiw" after then is a history of the Catholic Church imposing it's "orthodoxy", by force eventually, upon the world. Suddenly, many of the church fathers were declared to be heretics...including the composer of the first systematic theology of the church...of which universal salvation through Jesus Christ was a primary pillar.

                        This all began because aionios was translated into Latin as "aeternum" when it is associated with punishment.

                        Why did the majority of the Christian world believe that all men would be saved and judgements were a part of that process so long as Greek was their primary language...and then that all changed when the Latin speaking Roman Church imposed it's dominion upon Europe?

                        Most of the arguments for eternal torment...which was first put into a systematic theology by Augustine... was written to convince Christians that did not believe in eternal torment of it's fidelity to God's revelation of Himself. Most of those arguments failed miserably.

                        The Catholic Church began killing people that disagreed with them...among them believers that Jesus Christ would save all men. their writings were declared ananthema...and burned or otherwise discredited. Many died at the hands of church "leadership". Things got so bad that if anyone did not agree with the Catholic doctrine they would never admit it.

                        Until the reformation...the Church didn't even remotely resemble what the Bible taught anymore.

                        Given that kind of history...coupled with the fact that the majority of Greek speaking Christians did not believe in unending misery...leads me to one conclusion: The doctrine of eternal torment was a strong delusion that took hold of the Chrurch from ouside the teaching of scripture...and it did so 600 years after the beginning of the Church!

                        The good news is...we still have scholars that will recognize these facts and not sweep them under the rug. These are the ones I choose to trust.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by PastorKevin
                          Nineveh was only making the point that has already been made numerous times, that it is for purely emotional and not Scriptural reasons that one embraces Universalism.
                          How about moral reasons? Or issues of Justice? How about believing that God is not the sort that would even concieve of eternal misery for anyone would be a good idea?

                          Purely emotional reasons? Come on, Kevin...do you think that someone can claim that God intends that billions upon billions of people burning forever and it would NOT elicit an emotional response or two?

                          God gave us emotions. And every fiber of our God given emotions cries out...no, THAT is not right! Eternal burning would not be a good thing to make...it wouldn't be the right thing to do under any circumstances.

                          It would not be Just...it would not be moral.

                          Even if you use the Old Testament standard of an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth, eternal punishment could not be viewed as a "just" punishment for anything.

                          Truth is...eternal torment makes a mockery of God's justice and righteousness. What it does to His nature of Love that is sacrificial is unthinkable...or at least SHOULD be.

                          You know what..I think it takes a form a brainwashing to get people to think that eternal torment is what God has in mind....to make people think that God is even interested in that being caused by anything really takes some really messed up thinking. How dare we think God...a good God, a righteous one, a just one, a God who's nature is LOVE...is even capable of such a thing as making what eternal torment insists He must have.

                          Am I being emotional?

                          You bet I am!

                          Comment


                          • Kevin, you didn't answer my last post to you, but I'll address another one to you (and Nineveh and Aimiel and other eternal damnationists):

                            Does the idea of millions of human beings, including many people you know, being thrown alive into the Lake of Fire prick your conscience at all? If you were in a position to decide the fate of all non-Christians, would you have any moral qualms at all about inflicting an eternal sentence of unimaginable pain on them? Is that what YOU would choose to do to them?
                            "Perhaps everything terrible is in its deepest being something that needs our love" ~ Rainer Maria Rilke

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by logos_x
                              How about moral reasons? Or issues of Justice? How about believing that God is not the sort that would even concieve of eternal misery for anyone would be a good idea?

                              Purely emotional reasons? Come on, Kevin...do you think that someone can claim that God intends that billions upon billions of people burning forever and it would NOT elicit an emotional response or two?

                              God gave us emotions. And every fiber of our God given emotions cries out...no, THAT is not right! Eternal burning would not be a good thing to make...it wouldn't be the right thing to do under any circumstances.

                              It would not be Just...it would not be moral.

                              Even if you use the Old Testament standard of an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth, eternal punishment could not be viewed as a "just" punishment for anything.

                              Truth is...eternal torment makes a mockery of God's justice and righteousness. What it does to His nature of Love that is sacrificial is unthinkable...or at least SHOULD be.

                              You know what..I think it takes a form a brainwashing to get people to think that eternal torment is what God has in mind....to make people think that God is even interested in that being caused by anything really takes some really messed up thinking. How dare we think God...a good God, a righteous one, a just one, a God who's nature is LOVE...is even capable of such a thing as making what eternal torment insists He must have.

                              Am I being emotional?

                              You bet I am!


                              great post
                              "Either these curtains go or I do...."

                              - Oscar Wilde on deathbed

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by PastorKevin
                                Welcome but with all due respect we have been over this throughout this thread and in the Battle Royale. You might look back at the Battle Royale in particular as I went into explaining these things there. Read Round #2 HERE
                                The point is that they would have no rest day or night forever and ever just as the Scriptures say. Universalism doesn't follow the Scriptures on these things. The onus is not on ME to "prove that it means literally for ever and ever in the Greek". The onus is on the Universalist to prove why all of the wonderful Greek scholars that have translated our modern Bibles are less capable of translating Greek than Universalists. I would understand if I were coming out of left field here and saying that (for example) a Greek word taught that men could leap off of buildings and fly. I would be hard pressed to find ANY Greek scholars to demonstrate that is what those words meant.

                                IF HOWEVER, the vast majority of Greek scholars who have translated our modern Bibles (and virtually ALL of the translations going back through time as well), have translated these words to mean eternal and forever, then the ONUS is on the Universalist to refute the qualifications of THOSE scholars to translate Greek. It is silly that all of those Greek scholars who have worked so hard to translate the Bible have their translations completely ignored by Universalists who are attempting to avoid any translations that don't agree with their theology.

                                Logos for example says that Aion and its derivatives CANNOT mean forever. But he has never shown why HE is more qualified than the Greek scholars who DO translate it as such. Logos has no Greek degree that he has spoken of, and yet he is to be believed over people such as Vine and Strong?

                                God bless and have a great night.

                                Thanks for the blessing- and may the Lord be with *your* spirit as well.
                                When you speak of the "majority of greek scholars", you speak of the majority of *contemporary* or *modern* greek scholars. What sayeth the ancients? Also, is the meaning of the Bible to be determined by scholars? Are they the new popes (meaning they have the keys of interpretation for the Church?) Does the New Testament speak of a group of scholars that God has appointed to determine the will of the Almighty?

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