BRXII Battle talk

[CabinetMaker]

I would never want you to call me your teacher, the abundance of scriptures that have been shown already indicate that God has a plan from the outset that ultimately ends up with everything being in subjegation to himself and God being all in all, thats irrespective of the ones that speak of God's will in having his creation to be saved, his knowledge of the fallibility of mankind, all things being possible with God, his ransom for all to be testified. You just wont let your limiting doctrines allow you to see that God's love is so much more than you can believe it to be,

Can't do it can you!?

 

[CabinetMaker]

If you had a billion dollars in a bank account in your name, but you weren't aware of
it, what good would it do you? That's what the great Commission is about, sharing the
good news!

It all matters.

Not to univeralists. You will get the billion dollars no matter what according to you. According to universal salvation, nothing you do matters one way or the other. The end point of the journey is predefined and nothing you do can effect it in even the tinest way. Follow you doctrine to the end and this is what you will find.

 

[CabinetMaker]

I would agree here, too. But then, I define salvation as being saved from sin, not from permanent misery.

Your definition of salvation is incorrect. Christs death is the forgiveness of sin. Chrsits resurection to eternal life holds the key to our salvation. Salvation is eternity with God.

 

[CabinetMaker]

This one post right here just sums up how dark and sickening this doctrine you hold to actually is, its quite a running theme with eternal torment, Aimiel believes himself capable of actually throwing people into a literal lake of fire, did you know that? Could you do this also do you think?

It is not for me. God has reserved His vengence and His punishment for Himself. Jesus will judge.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Does it make it easier for you to view it this way? If a human being throws another into a furnace and then forgets about it is that human not still a sadistic murderer? Your analogy here holds no water,

Bu then, God is not a human, is He.

And you will continue to bury your head in the sand with the explanations provided for all of the above, you limit God, you limit his love, his will and his power, fact...you've already stated that God didnt come to save every person no matter what, you really might want to reavualte just that comment alone.

All of your explinations amount to a house built on the sand.

The only limits on God are the ones He places there like rainbows. God could destroy the world again in another flood but has promised not to and the rainbow is a symbol of that promise.

jesus died that every man might have eternal life with His Father. He did not say that every man would have eternal life with the Father.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Eternal torment proves how unselfish you are?

Etranl torment proves nothing about me. The lake of fire is a creation of God's and it is where those whos name is not written on the book life are sent. Do you agree with that?

 

[logos_x]

Etranl torment proves nothing about me. The lake of fire is a creation of God's and it is where those whos name is not written on the book life are sent. Do you agree with that?

I don't agree that the lake of fire and brimstone is the end of them. The Bible itself defines the lake of fire and brimstone as the second death and never says that this second death is permanent.

The Bible, again, says that the LAST enemy to be overthrown is death.

The Bible makes it quite plain God's will AND His desires will ultimately be fulfilled whether we are able to presently see it or not. Some have faith to see, many don't.

 

[logos_x]

Your definition of salvation is incorrect. Christs death is the forgiveness of sin. Chrsits resurection to eternal life holds the key to our salvation. Salvation is eternity with God.

Ok.
I just want to make it clear that salvation is not defined as an escape from a permanent and never ending misery, and this only BEFORE one arrives in such a situation.

 

[logos_x]

Not to univeralists. You will get the billion dollars no matter what according to you. According to universal salvation, nothing you do matters one way or the other. The end point of the journey is predefined and nothing you do can effect it in even the tinest way. Follow you doctrine to the end and this is what you will find.

Actually, the opposite it true in your view. Once dead, the future slams shut, never to be opened again, and that "end point" is predefined and nothing you could possibly do would change it in the tiniest way...."forever". Only the elect are EVER saved, the rest NEVER are.

Follow your doctrine to it's end and that is what you will find. Only the elect have an open future, the rest cannot have anything because they die, and death has victory forever over them.

 

[Redfin]

Universalism denys the Potter His due....

Jesus paid the Potter His due.

In full.

For everyone.

Eternal torment denies the Potter His desire!

:think:

 

[ApologeticJedi]

Eternal torment denies the Potter His desire!
:think:

If God' desire was for everyone to live with Him, then there would be no sin in the first place. That there is sin proves that God wants people to have the ability not to choose Him. That is His over-reaching desire. :think:

 

[Redfin]

If God' desire was for everyone to live with Him, then there would be no sin in the first place. That there is sin proves that God wants people to have the ability not to choose Him. That is His over-reaching desire. :think:

You have made unwarranted inferences.

Here is what the Bible actually says:

I Timothy 2:3-4 - This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

:think:

 

[Aimiel]

I don't agree that the lake of fire and brimstone is the end of them. The Bible itself defines the lake of fire and brimstone as the second death and never says that this second death is permanent.

The Bible, again, says that the LAST enemy to be overthrown is death.

The Bible makes it quite plain God's will AND His desires will ultimately be fulfilled whether we are able to presently see it or not. Some have faith to see, many don't.

Death being cast into the second death kinda' makes it more permanent than can be dismissed so easily. God's Will is fulfilled, but He doesn't override freewill. If He did, Satan never would have fallen.

 

[Nineveh]

Do you believe that everyone who doesn't believe as you do deserves to be punished and to suffer forever?

I believe those who reject Christ's Righteousness will judged by their own and found wanting then sent away to be apart from God forever.

This means they will be forever with what they truly love the most, themselves. They get to take their sin and regret which is what will be their torment. I don't believe like dave miller that the lake of fire is "part of God". God does not offer to be near or with people after that time. This means an existence without God is without hope, love, kindness. patience, etc.

So do they deserve it? We all do. Thanks be to Jesus He offered us His Righteousness. I pray more repent and accept it.

 

[Nineveh]

"want" does not = "force".

Want is a desire, not an absolute mandate that overrides all will.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Not to univeralists. You will get the billion dollars no matter what according to you. According to universal salvation, nothing you do matters one way or the other. The end point of the journey is predefined and nothing you do can effect it in even the tinest way. Follow you doctrine to the end and this is what you will find.

Suffering here and now matters. Its not about the destination, its about the journey.

Accepting the gift here and now relieves suffering here and now.

You know, this brings up an interesting point, Balder might find it interesting as well.

In my experience working with people of faith, its common to hear people who need
counseling help having an attitude of "surrender to suffering" because according to their
interpretation of Scripture, suffering here and now is temporary compared to eternity.

This surrender to suffering is also considered a symptom of depression, and the ideation
that such suffering can only be mitigated in eternity can lead to self destructive ideations.

I don't think this is the way God intends that we interpret Scripture. God demands
mercy, and not sacrifice...

 

[CabinetMaker]

Actually, the opposite it true in your view. Once dead, the future slams shut, never to be opened again, and that "end point" is predefined and nothing you could possibly do would change it in the tiniest way...."forever". Only the elect are EVER saved, the rest NEVER are.

Follow your doctrine to it's end and that is what you will find. Only the elect have an open future, the rest cannot have anything because they die, and death has victory forever over them.

If you follow traditional Christian doctrine about hell to its logical conclusion you will find people who accepted Jesus living in Heaven with Him and His Father. You will also find people condemned to the lake of fire. Both conditions are eternal (unending if you prefer). There is a better than good probability that people I know and love could end up in the lake. Am joyfull about that? No. It adds imputus to the Great Commission, to reach out to my friends and loved ones to share the truth of Gods love with them that they might avoid that future. Ultimatly, it is their choice. All we are called to do as Christians is share the truth, the reason for hope in each of us. God will convict them of that truth and they will accept it or reject it.

Hell IS NOT a good thing. The fact that it is unending, lasting to the age of ages (which sure sounds like a poetic way of saying forever and ever) makes it all the worse.

An interesting point. The threat of an eternity spent in hell was what originally got my attention. I looked at my life and realized that my future was going to include hell. It scared the hell out of me so I started looking at the Bible and came to know Jesus. In finding Jesus I found that having Him as my saviour is about so much more than avoiding hell. The worries obout hell fall away and my heart opened to others.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Jesus paid the Potter His due.

In full.

For everyone.

Eternal torment denies the Potter His desire!

:think:

Jesus only paid the debt of sin under the law in full. Everyman receives that and that is what allows you to seek and find a personal relationship with Jesus. It is not your sins that send you to hell though.

The next step, salvation, is a little different. It is a gift from God that is OFFERED to each man. Only those who, through a confession of faith and by Gods grace, accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour receive Gods gift of salvation.

 

[CabinetMaker]

You have made unwarranted inferences.

Here is what the Bible actually says:

I Timothy 2:3-4 - This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

:think:

Note that your vers says God WANTS. It does not say God WILLS. The diference is huge. If was Gods WILL then you would be right. But it says WANTS which means God has made us a partner in our salvation.

 

[Aimiel]

I don't think this is the way God intends that we interpret Scripture. God demands mercy, and not sacrifice...

I don't believe that is the way that God meant for us to presume to know truth, by perverting Scripture. He demands that we be merciful (otherwise police might be empowered to shoot to kill jaywalkers) but He also demands that justice be fulfilled, which is why sin results in death. Otherwise, why didn't He act out of this 'mercy' you proclaim and allow the 'cup' of Calvary to pass from in front of Jesus without Him having to taste of it? He will have mercy upon those who are pleasing to Him, but will visit the iniquities of the fathers upon the third and fourth generation of them that hate Him. Repent of your hatred and stop perverting Scripture.