Discussion thread for: Battle Royale XIII

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The Graphite

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No worries, Will. If NW sees that McCain agrees publicly that "abortion should be legal," and they take that to mean that he wants to criminalize all abortion, surely that's a perfectly reasonable perspective... :shut:

I'm guilty, myself, but it's no use debating the debate in this thread. I still look forward to NW's next post, in which they will deny reality to even a laughable degree. :up:
 

GodsfreeWill

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I've generally steered clear of making any substantive posts in this thread because I feel it detracts from the Battle Royale itself. However, misquoting in the manner you are which you are doing here is lying. I'd like to keep this friendly, but when someone directly lies about what I've said you begin to make it difficult to do so. The actual quote from our Round 2 Rebuttal is:

GGQ8: Is it immoral to vote for a presidential candidate willing to kill this innocent child?
NWA-GGQ8: Yes. But this is simply more emotionally laden rhetoric, as there is no Presidential candidate involved in this election who has expressed a desire to kill children.
GGQ9: Is it immoral to vote for a presidential candidate willing to fund the killing of this innocent child?
NWA-GGQ9: Yes. Have you read John McCain's stance upon the issue of abortion? He agrees with us.
GGQ10: Is it immoral to vote for a presidential candidate willing to use his power as President to keep it legal to kill this innocent child?
NWA-GGQ10: Yes. Again, this is not John McCain's position. He has pledged to do his part to end abortion - he will nominate constructionist judges who, by definition, would never overturn a personhood amendment, national or otherwise.

WIF, I don't understand your emotion. I didn't LIE. Nor did I misquote you. We didn't ask you about John McCain or Barack Obama or anyone else specifically. We simply asked if it was immoral to vote for a presidential candidate willing to A; B; C. You answered "Yes." to every question. Your commentary after each answer is irrelevant because we weren't asking about McCain (yet). We knew, everybody knew, that you didn't think McCain was guilty of A; B; C. You answered "Yes." without exception to every question, and it appears that now you are regretting that decision and we don't blame you!
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
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WIF, I don't understand your emotion. I didn't LIE. Nor did I misquote you. We didn't ask you about John McCain or Barack Obama or anyone else specifically. We simply asked if it was immoral to vote for a presidential candidate willing to A; B; C. You answered "Yes." to every question. Your commentary after each answer is irrelevant because we weren't asking about McCain (yet). We knew, everybody knew, that you didn't think McCain was guilty of A; B; C. You answered "Yes." without exception to every question, and it appears that now you are regretting that decision and we don't blame you!
How can you say they answered yes without exception when their exception is clearly stated?
 

The Graphite

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CM, are you saying that you believe NW has stated in their answers that they believe it would be moral at least in certain circumstances to vote for a presidential candidate that would 1) kill children, 2) fund the killing of children or 3) keep abortion legal? You think they answered "no" to some degree, so that it would be moral to vote for such a person?

Keep in mind: the questions did not mention McCain or any other individual.
 

CabinetMaker

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CM, are you saying that you believe NW has stated in their answers that they believe it would be moral at least in certain circumstances to vote for a presidential candidate that would 1) kill children, 2) fund the killing of children or 3) keep abortion legal? You think they answered "no" to some degree, so that it would be moral to vote for such a person?
1)None of the candidates has ever advocated killing children. This is emotional babel speak designed to do nothing but inflame the issue. (Sorry, but it is.)
2 and 3)If it is moral for a person to not prevent the conception of a baby that will be aborted by teaching methods of contraception, then it is equally moral to vote for a candidate who opposes abortion on a personal level but will allow women to decide if abortion is right for them.


The Graphite said:
Keep in mind: the questions did not mention McCain or any other individual.
Since the debate is specifically directed towards discussing McCain, any comments or questions raised during the debate can reasonable be inferred to be about McCain. At the very least, the questions were intended to lay a foundation from which you could assail the other side for being hypocrites.

 

Stripe

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Thats a cop out, Stripe. The question is fairly simple. Team GG's basic assertion is that if McCain does not do everything in his power to end abortion then he is complacent in allowing abortions and, therefore, guilty of murder.
I think, and I'm pretty sure having read what they wrote, that their position is that McCain is not worthy of your vote primarily because he supports, advocates and funds the right to murder the unborn. This is not about doing nothing, this is about directly acting against God's standards.
 

Clete

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Clete, perhaps you didn't read round 2, when I actually took the time to respond to you.
I read it but it glazed my eyes over as it is unresponsive to the argument.

Your analogy doesn't fit this situation at all.
Of course it does but it is an analogy not a perfect parallelism, as your rebuttal argument wrongly assumes.

We have authority over John McCain.
Irrelevant. We also have authority over Obama. That is, we have authority over them until they are placed in a position of authority over us.

Roosevelt did not have authority over Stalin or the Soviet Union.
Irrelevant. We were willing allies. We helped them, they helped us, we knew what they were doing, they knew what we were doing, and both of us coordinated our actions with each other. We were allies in every sense of the word accept that each of us hated what the other stood for in every other context accept the defeat of the German threat.

They were going to attack Germany anyway, and we simply coordinated with their efforts to maximize our effect.
Yes, precisely my point. The enemy of our enemy was our friend. Likewise you and those who choose to throw away their vote by either not voting at all or voting for a conservative who cannot win, are friends of Obama's during this election cycle.

And yes, many lives were saved!
But not all lives were saved, just more than there would have been otherwise. Just as there would be if we joined forces (for the time being) with McCain in order to defeat the greater enemy of Obama.

On the other hand, I guess the scriptures we've provided are "irrelevant to [your] decision making process on this issue," and you don't even see fit to address them.
This is the sort of intellectual dishonesty I was referring to in the initial post of this thread. You should be ashamed of yourself for saying such things. Your sarcasm doesn't impress me one little bit.

I agree with every word that Bob Enyart says on every other issue but this one. I've not only heard but have actually made every argument you know or have ever heard on this issue more times than I can count and have done so repeatedly and passionately with people I actually know personally in my daily life outside of TOL. I simply thought of a counter argument one day a month or two ago that I had no answer for. I actually WANT someone to convince me and so if I tell you that the argument hasn't been addressed its because it hasn't been. If you cannot explain to me how Barack Obama isn't pleased as punch that Alan Keyes in on the ticket in Colorado (normally a state he would have no chance at all of winning), then nothing else you say matters to me one little bit. You can quote the whole Bible if you want too and it will not make one bit of difference because it doesn't address the argument!

Basically, all you guys (i.e. people on both sides of the debate) are thinking about this backward! The question isn't, "Which of two evils do I help?" but rather, "Which of two evils do I hurt?"! If I, because of a system that I neither set up nor have any ability to change, am forced to choose between hurting the lesser of two evils or the greater, then I choose to hurt the greater!

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
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I note that you chose not to address my hypothetical situation. Why? If you know that a woman will get an abortion if she gets pregnant, are you guilty of murder if you do not do everything you can to prevent her from getting pregnant up to and including providing birth control?
We should not do evil that good may come of it. That includes breaking God's command to be fruitful and multiply.

Why aren't you guilty. You didn't do everything you could do to prevent an abortion. You are guilty of exactly the same thing you are accusing McCain of. I find your argument hypocritical.
The only thing he said was that he wold not do everything to prevent her from getting pregnant. He never said he would not do everything to prevent her from getting an abortion. There is a difference you know.

I did not say the children under Pharoh was a punishment on the Israelites.
I said it was to show the power of God.
My point was that God raises up rulers for different reasons, including punishment, fulfillment of prophecy, and to show His power.

Romans 9:17
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.​

You should have used Exodus 9:16.

But you're missing something. You're missing the fact that God did not put the Israelites under Pharaoh. And you're missing that God was not responsible for Egypt's governmental system. And what He told Moses to say was in regard to Egypt as a whole, not just Pharaoh. Also, it was in contrast to what He could have done [pestilence]. Instead of destroying them for their evil toward the Israelites He raised them up to show His power.

The only way you could argue otherwise is if you wanted to somehow argue that Obama is not dramatically worse than McCain on every single issue, including abortion.
I can assure you that Obama is not worse on the issue of abortion than McCain is. Because no matter what McCain says, he's not going to change a thing. Nor will he appoint Justices to the Supreme Court that will change anything.:nono:

I'm just curious (this is way out of the scope of the debate), which is worse: killing a baby (in the womb or out) or denying God access to the womb to create a child (denying existence of any kind whatever to a child that God desires to create)?
Neither is worse.

But you have to prove that God actually desires to create a specific child.

I, for one, believe that God desires that children are conceived and born. But I do not believe that He actually goes in and creates children. He designed humans to create children on their own, in the way that we do.

But I can agree that once a child is conceived, then God may go in and form the inward parts. David believed it. And it is in the Bible. So I have no reason to disagree.

But I do not believe God makes children have disabilities, or such.

You are missing logic and reason

We do not vote for McCain, we vote republican because they do not block the
confirmation of conservative judges

Can you tell the difference between a conservative judge and a liberal one?
Liberal judges call themselves Republicans or Democrats.

How can you say they answered yes without exception when their exception is clearly stated?
Translation: :dunce::duh:

1)None of the candidates has ever advocated killing children.
Untrue.

Obama specifically stated that he advocates abortion. He even said that if either of his daughters became pregnant before they were ready to raise a child that he would want them to have an abortion. I can find some video of it if you want.

2 and 3)If it is moral for a person to not prevent the conception of a baby that will be aborted by teaching methods of contraception, then it is equally moral to vote for a candidate who opposes abortion on a personal level but will allow women to decide if abortion is right for them.
You're a moron.

Two wrongs have never made a right. Ever.

And there is also no possible way you can know that a person will certainly have an abortion. They may say they will have one if they get pregnant. But instead of preventing them from getting pregnant you should instead reason with them to not get an abortion.

And if they are fornicating you should attempt to reason with them not to fornicate. But that will be harder than reasoning with them to not get an abortion in today's society.

Of course, that doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

Since the debate is specifically directed towards discussing McCain, any comments or questions raised during the debate can reasonable be inferred to be about McCain. At the very least, the questions were intended to lay a foundation from which you could assail the other side for being hypocrites./quote]
You're a moron.

The questions were intended to lay a foundation from which they could reason with the other side and prove that McCain falls under at least one of those three categories, if not more than one.

And the only side, as far as I have seen, to call their opponents hypocrites is NW in reference to GG. And it has happened at least two or three times that I have read.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Clete, what part of "do not do evil that good may come of it" don't you understand?
It is not evil to use an enemy to defeat another enemy.

And don't talk to me like I'm stupid.

You have closed your heart and mind to this issue.
Why, because you haven't addressed the issue? How does your failing to explain to me how Alan Keyes isn't making it easier for Obama to win the White house equate to my closing my mind? If your position is true then you should be able to explain one of two things.

1. How it does not help Obama.
2. How it doesn't matter that it helps Obama.

You've done neither.

Please admit to the reading audience that if Jesus was running 3rd party, you would STILL vote for McCain, because a vote for Jesus, who could never win, would only help Obama. Admit it Clete. Admit it.
Answering this question would tacitly accept its premise, which I categorically reject. The notion of Jesus running for President of the United States borders on blasphemy!

This is the sort of stupidity that causes people all over this country and the world to laugh at Christians. This is the EXACT sort of blatant and intentional intellectual dishonestly that I was talking about in my initial post in this thread. I'm frankly embarrassed for you. I'm ashamed to be associated with you as I would otherwise be outside the context of this single issue.

If you cannot respond substantively to the specifics of the argument don't bother saying anything to me at all on this issue. Your emotional "arguments" and opinions are only going to make things worse.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
We should not do evil that good may come of it. That includes breaking God's command to be fruitful and multiply.
Sex outside of marriage is immoral, you'll get no argument from me on that point. But if a woman is going to break God's commandment to be fruitful and multiply, is it a greater evil to break it by preventing conception or by having an abortion?
 

Nathon Detroit

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LIFETIME MEMBER
It is not evil to use an enemy to defeat another enemy.
I think that would depend on how you "used" your enemy wouldn't it?

I mean.... if you actually joined forces with evil, merely to defeat another evil I don't see how that could be viewed as anything but evil.

But I haven't read this whole thread so I don't know exactly what your argument is.
 

Lighthouse

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Sex outside of marriage is immoral, you'll get no argument from me on that point. But if a woman is going to break God's commandment to be fruitful and multiply, is it a greater evil to break it by preventing conception or by having an abortion?
Well, let's take a look at what God has to say on the matter.

Those who commit murder are to be executed. When Onan prevented the conception of a child God killed him.:think:

God says people should die for both. Do you think God perceives one to be more evil than the other?
 

Lion

King of the jungle
Super Moderator
NW said;
No sin is ontologically worse than any other sin, and to contend that it is, is to step far outside of what God has revealed in His Word - to set up our purely humanistic judgments. It is our hope that our opponents do this out of ignorance of what God has revealed in this regard, and as such we feel compelled to spend some time exploring it.

Man I can’t believe you guys even said this. You should know better…
John 19:11
Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”

Also the Romans passages as well as all like passages in dealing with the stronger or weaker brother are only regarding the differences between those in The Body (stronger) relating to those of The Circumcision.

Imagine Paul telling a member of the Body it was alright to follow the law just because he was weak in the faith. It’s silly. Rather he always infasized the need for the members of The Body not to brag about their liberty and to even go so far as to follow the law when dealing with them so as not to make them stumble.

Paul is not nor does he ever tell us it is right to go along with a member of The Body in following the law because of spiritual immaturity.

NW said:
As a humanistic understanding of sin is so rampant in our age, we must first establish precisely what sin is. Sin is any offense committed against God. Not against our fellow man. Not against ourselves. This is why when David is confronted by Nathan about the murder of Uriah, he cries out “I have sinned against the LORD." All sin therefore is rebellion against God. This sin may come in many different forms, but for us to make the judgment that one sin is greater than another is to essentially deny what sin is. We also see this in that God commands the same punishment for all sins: restitution. In certain instances, the only way a person can make restitution is by forfeiting his own life, but this remains a form of restitution.

A sad instance of Christians still drinking milk.

1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that

NW said:
Barring a constitutional amendment, abortion may not be banned on the federal level. So as a judge whose job is to interpret Constitution of the United States of America, Scalia's position is the correct one. Under our constitution, laws of that nature are to be passed and enforced at the state level. I would also imagine, if questioned directly, Scalia would contend that other criminal offenses such as a murder, theft and the like would also fall into precisely the same category. All that lies within the court's power to do is to reverse Roe v. Wade and return the decision to the individual states.

Really, then how was it passed on a Federal level by the SC? All the SC has to do is reverse the Roe V Wade decision and state that all human life is protected under the constitution from conception (people have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness).
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
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Well, let's take a look at what God has to say on the matter.

Those who commit murder are to be executed. When Onan prevented the conception of a child God killed him.:think:

God says people should die for both. Do you think God perceives one to be more evil than the other?
Yes, lets take a look:
Genesis 38:8-10
8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also.


Since Onan was put to death by God because Onan refused to do what God had commanded him and not specifically for practicing contraception, I would conclude that God sees abortion as a sin and contriception is not. God does not say that people should die for both.
 

nicholsmom

New member
NW said;

Man I can’t believe you guys even said this. You should know better…


Also the Romans passages as well as all like passages in dealing with the stronger or weaker brother are only regarding the differences between those in The Body (stronger) relating to those of The Circumcision.

Imagine Paul telling a member of the Body it was alright to follow the law just because he was weak in the faith. It’s silly. Rather he always infasized the need for the members of The Body not to brag about their liberty and to even go so far as to follow the law when dealing with them so as not to make them stumble.

Paul is not nor does he ever tell us it is right to go along with a member of The Body in following the law because of spiritual immaturity.

NW said:

A sad instance of Christians still drinking milk.



NW said:

Really, then how was it passed on a Federal level by the SC? All the SC has to do is reverse the Roe V Wade decision and state that all human life is protected under the constitution from conception (people have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness).

Perhaps a re-reading of Romans 14 (and it couldn't hurt to read the whole book again) and a re-reading of the Articles of the Constitution would help you understand your errors. :wave:
 

nicholsmom

New member
Yes, lets take a look:
Genesis 38:8-10
8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also.


Since Onan was put to death by God because Onan refused to do what God had commanded him and not specifically for practicing contraception, I would conclude that God sees abortion as a sin and contriception is not. God does not say that people should die for both.

:up: LH fails to use the didactic to interpret the narrative, and often forces inference into the shape of doctrine.
 
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GodsfreeWill

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It is not evil to use an enemy to defeat another enemy.

It's evil to join evil therefore taking part in evil and doing evil that good may come of it.

And don't talk to me like I'm stupid.

You are on this issue, sorry.

Why, because you haven't addressed the issue? How does your failing to explain to me how Alan Keyes isn't making it easier for Obama to win the White house equate to my closing my mind? If your position is true then you should be able to explain one of two things.

1. How it does not help Obama.
2. How it doesn't matter that it helps Obama.

You've done neither.

I don't fear Obama winning the White House. You fear man. The Bible says fear God. If Obama said he would kill all Christians as his first act in office, we still don't disobey God and vote for McCain.

You very obviously don't understand how the Presidential election works in this country. I can't explain it now, as it would give away a huge point for Round 4. NW have made a huge error in how the process works, as you have.

A vote for Keyes helps Keyes. A vote for no one helps no one. A vote for Obama helps Obama. A vote for McCain helps McCain. You're falling prey to the devil's game.

"You only have two choices. No matter what you do, you'll only helping either of the two choices. Choose Clete!" :devil:

Answering this question would tacitly accept its premise, which I categorically reject. The notion of Jesus running for President of the United States borders on blasphemy!

Your fear is so obvious to everyone. I take your refusal to answer as evidence that you know you're wrong. Can I blaspheme Paul? What if the apostle Paul was running third party? You can't win when you take the side of evil.
 

Nathon Detroit

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Clete, Godsfreewill, and the rest.... this is a tough issue and it isn't cut and dry. These are deeply layered, tricky topics that are not always easy to explain or understand. Lets not condemn each other or mock each other. We are all on the same side even if some might disagree on this issue.

I am not asking that you all agree with each other, but instead I am asking that we discuss this more gently with each other and not polarize or alienate each other to point that fellowship is lost.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Clete, Godsfreewill, and the rest.... this is a tough issue and it isn't cut and dry. These are deeply layered, tricky topics that are not always easy to explain or understand. Lets not condemn each other or mock each other. We are all on the same side even if some might disagree on this issue.

I am not asking that you all agree with each other, but instead I am asking that we discuss this more gently with each other and not polarize or alienate each other to point that fellowship is lost.
Agreed!

I understand that my current position on this has to be driving a lot of people nuts. Let me just assure everyone involved that I am not entrenched here on this issue. It wasn't two months ago that I was 100% in agreement with the "Don't vote for the lesser of two evils." side of this debate. I can be back there just as quickly. And, in fact, the only reason I'm not still there now is because no one has yet been able to refute my own argument against it! I can't very well cling to a position that I've detected a major problem with that no one is able to remedy.

It is the truthful and righteous positions that have the irrefutable arguments, not falsehoods and foolishness. My allegiance is to the truth, not to any one person, group, doctrine or practice. If I'm wrong then I want someone to show me that I'm wrong but they will have to show me, not simply state repeatedly that I'm wrong and they're right.

At any rate, I know that this is an emotional issue. Indeed, it is issues such as this one that cause people are regularly advise others not to discuss religion or politics. And so, I will commit to sticking to the specific issue and to keeping personal comments out of it, and I'll also make every effort to over look when someone else fails to do the same. I have absolutely no desire to make an enemy of any of you guys.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
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