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  • How to Sin (and get away with it)

    Despite all the hubbub surrounding sin and its' problems we have to at least agree what sin is don't you agree? The Scripture declares sin to be the transgression of the Torah, so if you don't know it or even vaguely understand your relationship to it how can you be accountable for it either way? I can describe to you in my own way how I see it.
    A bride on the day of her wedding will spend many hours looking into a mirror to primp and make herself most attractive to the groom and all those around. The Torah is like this since it reveals to us what we truly look like to the Groom. If we think we have not sinned we are kidding ourselves and have either despised the mirror or tried to destroy it in some way.
    The "curse" of the law is death, not "The law is cursed". When we break a law we pay the penalty. Just because we have paid the penalty this does not relieve us from obeying it this next time around. We cannot confuse salvation with our "old natures" which are at odds against the Torah and the Spirit and the wonderful sacrifice Messiah made for us by being crucified on the tree. Hence, the curse i/e our punishment for not obeying it is paid in full by the Messiah. This does not however give us the right to dis-own the Torah or teach others we are to no longer obey the instructions of our Father YHVH.
    We do not obey to be saved we obey because that brings the Father honor and respect. Anyhoo... greasy grace is no substitute for obedience and the true Grace given us.

    On a lighter note, since the majority of Christians today whether willingly or unknowingly leave the Torah behind I feel the principles of tithing and the blessing and all the Psalms should be "left behind" where they are buried with the Torah don't you agree? I was just wondering.

  • #2
    Originally posted by wonderingjew View Post
    On a lighter note, since the majority of Christians today whether willingly or unknowingly leave the Torah behind I feel the principles of tithing and the blessing and all the Psalms should be "left behind" where they are buried with the Torah don't you agree? I was just wondering.[/FONT][/COLOR]

    Sadly this isn't so. The law is the school master that leads us to the Messiah. The law is a curse, as you have stated. It proves my guilt. Most Christians try to live according to it thinking they can then be righteous before God.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Nick M View Post
      Sadly this isn't so. The law is the school master that leads us to the Messiah. The law is a curse, as you have stated. It proves my guilt. Most Christians try to live according to it thinking they can then be righteous before God.
      Few Christians try to live according to the Torah.
      Most Christians try to live according to other rules.

      Colossians 2:20-23
      20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
      21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
      22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
      23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

      Last edited by genuineoriginal; December 19, 2014, 01:10 PM.
      Learn to read what is written.

      _____
      The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
      ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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      • #4
        The more you set yourself to obey the law the more you will fail.

        Thou shalt not lust immediately awakens lust in the flesh when we try to live in obedience to that law.

        That is what the law is for. I am FREE both from the law and the sin and the curse attached to it..I receive the blessing attached to obedience to the law through Christ who kept it on my behalf .

        He is my Righteousness.
        One lavished upon in the Beloved
        sigpic

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
          The more you set yourself to obey the law the more you will fail.

          Thou shalt not lust immediately awakens lust in the flesh when we try to live in obedience to that law.

          That is what the law is for. I am FREE both from the law and the sin and the curse attached to it..I receive the blessing attached to obedience to the law through Christ who kept it on my behalf .

          He is my Righteousness.
          Amen!

          You are relying on the righteousness & obedience of ONE, not two.

          And that leaves you and I with no boasting whatsoever.

          We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
          They already know monsters exist.
          We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

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          • #6
            This does not however give us the right to dis-own the Torah
            If the Law has served its sole purpose of pointing us to Christ and, heeding it, to Him we have fled, it has no further use. To say it does contradicts Paul and places you under the Galatians 1 anathema.
            "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
            Terence Mc Lean

            [most will be very surprised]


            Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
            By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by wonderingjew View Post
              Despite all the hubbub surrounding sin and its' problems we have to at least agree what sin is don't you agree? The Scripture declares sin to be the transgression of the Torah, so if you don't know it or even vaguely understand your relationship to it how can you be accountable for it either way? I can describe to you in my own way how I see it.
              The law is summarized in two commandments and one principle (Mt 7:12). However, in the books called Torah there are two sets of laws: the Book of the Law and the Decalogue. The book was kept on the outside of the Ark of the Covenant and the Decalogue was kept inside the Ark. The Decalogue was kept inside the Ark because it represents the law being written in our hearts according to the new covenant promised in Jeremiah et al.

              The other laws, those requiring temporal punishments, certain rituals, condemning bodily functions and various ways of becoming unclean were abrogated (Col 2:14). God made the way straight, an easy yoke and light burden; He writes the law (Mt 7:12) in your heart and Christ in you lives it (Gal 2:20; Ro 7:27). And your flesh serves the law of sin by being dead, which was the point of those laws condemning things like natural bodily functions (eg. Lev 15:30; Ro 7:20).

              What is left of Torah? Matthew 7:12. It's that simple, and only a hypocrite destined for eternal destruction couldn't treat other people the way he wants to be treated, couldn't be judged by the same measure he uses to judge others, couldn't show the mercy he was shown by God to another. Only a hypocrite falls short of Matthew 7:12.

              Originally posted by wonderingjew View Post
              A bride on the day of her wedding will spend many hours looking into a mirror to primp and make herself most attractive to the groom and all those around. The Torah is like this since it reveals to us what we truly look like to the Groom. If we think we have not sinned we are kidding ourselves and have either despised the mirror or tried to destroy it in some way.
              Your mirror sounds like the accuser of the brethren. The bride does not look like harlot to the Groom. If you look in the mirror and see a harlot, the Groom isn't coming for you. Better to be blind as Jesus meant in John 9:41 than stare into that mirror of yours.

              Originally posted by wonderingjew View Post
              The "curse" of the law is death, not "The law is cursed". When we break a law we pay the penalty. Just because we have paid the penalty this does not relieve us from obeying it this next time around. We cannot confuse salvation with our "old natures" which are at odds against the Torah and the Spirit and the wonderful sacrifice Messiah made for us by being crucified on the tree. Hence, the curse i/e our punishment for not obeying it is paid in full by the Messiah. This does not however give us the right to dis-own the Torah or teach others we are to no longer obey the instructions of our Father YHVH.
              The wages of sin is still death. Whoever sins is a servant of sin (Jn 8:34; Ro 6:16). Your old man (old nature) is supposed to be dead, crucified. You are supposed to be a new creation living His life (Gal 2:20). Whoever sins is dead in sin, has disowned the Torah and teaches others to sin by his words and actions.

              Originally posted by wonderingjew View Post
              We do not obey to be saved we obey because that brings the Father honor and respect.
              According to your mirror you cannot obey. Beware of cognitive dissonance.

              Originally posted by wonderingjew View Post
              Anyhoo... greasy grace is no substitute for obedience and the true Grace given us.
              It's not well known that grace is God's favor that is merited because we are his offspring (Acts 17:28,29). There is nothing a person can do to earn being God's child; it can only be realized through faith that it's true. If a person hates his brother he necessarily does not have faith he is God's child (1Jn 4:20).

              Originally posted by wonderingjew View Post
              On a lighter note, since the majority of Christians today whether willingly or unknowingly leave the Torah behind I feel the principles of tithing and the blessing and all the Psalms should be "left behind" where they are buried with the Torah don't you agree? I was just wondering.
              Tithing was setting aside a tenth of a families yearly increase to bring to Jerusalem for a yearly feast (a party). It wasn't what some Christians call tithing today. Regarding modern tithing, I believe it should not be called tithing and that people should contribute what is necessary to maintain their fellowships.

              And ... Psalms Rock!
              "It is easier to contend with evil at the first than at the last." - Leonardo da Vinci

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
                The more you set yourself to obey the law the more you will fail.
                Where is that written in the Bible? It's not.

                Here is something that is written in the Bible:

                Luke 1:6 They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

                Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
                Thou shalt not lust immediately awakens lust in the flesh when we try to live in obedience to that law.
                God did not set the law before man to tempt him but to command him to do what could be done. If the commandment thou shalt not murder immediately awakens in you a desire to murder your brother, you are lost (1Jn 3:15).

                Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
                That is what the law is for. I am FREE both from the law and the sin and the curse attached to it..I receive the blessing attached to obedience to the law through Christ who kept it on my behalf.
                Christ was from a different priesthood and performed acts reserved for Levitical priests under the law. For example, it was not lawful for a man from the tribe of Judah to pronounce a leper cleansed. The law and the priesthood were changed (Heb 7:12).

                Now if you want to say John's parents kept the Mosaic law, fine. You can cite Luke 1:6. But the evidence shows that Jesus changed the law with his priesthood (Heb 7:12) and abrogated many ordinances that were "against us" (Col 2:14).

                To say he kept the law for you doesn't make much sense.

                Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
                He is my Righteousness.
                You say but positional righteousness is a false doctrine (1Jn 2:29; 3:7).
                "It is easier to contend with evil at the first than at the last." - Leonardo da Vinci

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by musterion View Post
                  If the Law has served its sole purpose of pointing us to Christ and, heeding it, to Him we have fled, it has no further use. To say it does contradicts Paul and places you under the Galatians 1 anathema.
                  What does God forbid in the following verse?

                  Romans 3:31
                  31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

                  Learn to read what is written.

                  _____
                  The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                  ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by elohiym View Post
                    Your mirror sounds like the accuser of the brethren.
                    The mirror is mentioned in James

                    James 1:23-25
                    23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
                    24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
                    25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.


                    What manner of man are you?
                    Learn to read what is written.

                    _____
                    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                      What does God forbid in the following verse?

                      Romans 3:31
                      31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
                      Romans is a book demonstrating a progression of thought, a case being built precept upon precept. That being so, Romans 4 comes after Romans 3.

                      Romans 4:15 For the law produces wrath.
                      And Romans 5 comes after Romans 4.

                      Romans 5:20 The law came along to multiply the trespass.
                      Further -- and you may not believe this -- Romans 6 comes after Romans 5.

                      Romans 6:14 For sin will not rule over you, because you are not under law but under grace.
                      Now as stupid as this will sound to you, Romans 7 comes next after 6.

                      Romans 7:4 Therefore, my brothers, you also were put to death in relation to the law through the crucified body of the Messiah, so that you may belong to another--to Him who was raised from the dead--that we may bear fruit for God.

                      Romans 7:6 But now we have been released from the law, since we have died to what held us, so that we may serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old letter of the law.
                      All of which reaches its climax in Romans 8:1:
                      There is now NO CONDEMNATION for those in Christ Jesus.
                      Why not?

                      a. They're dead to the Law, which is God's just means of condemnation, and

                      b. They're alive forevermore in Christ, Who now is the believer's life.


                      THE SOLE PURPOSE OF THE LAW IS TO CONDEMN, AND FOR THE ONE WHO IS IN CHRIST, THERE IS NOTHING LEFT TO CONDEMN.

                      So the written Law, given for unbelievers to point them to Christ, has no place in the life of the one whose life IS CHRIST.

                      DOES it have a place in the life of most believers? Yes, as someone pointed out above. But Paul makes it clear that is NOT how it is supposed to be.
                      "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
                      Terence Mc Lean

                      [most will be very surprised]


                      Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
                      By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                        The mirror is mentioned in James
                        No. You've misunderstood the OP or my point. Read it again.
                        "It is easier to contend with evil at the first than at the last." - Leonardo da Vinci

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by musterion View Post
                          THE SOLE PURPOSE OF THE LAW IS TO CONDEMN
                          Most Christians that say that "the sole purpose of the law is to condem" have shut off their brains so they can't see how hateful against God the statement is.

                          God took the children of Israel out of Egypt and gave them the law.
                          Was His reason for doing that to condemn them?

                          Deuteronomy 6:24
                          245 And the Lord commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.

                          Learn to read what is written.

                          _____
                          The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                          ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by wonderingjew View Post
                            The Torah is like this since it reveals to us what we truly look like . . . If we think we have not sinned we are kidding ourselves and have either despised the mirror or tried to destroy it in some way.
                            Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                            The mirror is mentioned in James

                            James 1:23-25
                            23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
                            24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
                            25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
                            Originally posted by elohiym View Post
                            No. You've misunderstood the OP
                            No, I did not misunderstand the OP.
                            The OP stated that the Torah was like a mirror that reveals to us what we truly look like and reveals our sin.
                            James said the mirror was the Torah that many people look at and then choose to ignore what it reveals about them.

                            Originally posted by elohiym View Post
                            or my point
                            What was your point?
                            Learn to read what is written.

                            _____
                            The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                            ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
                              The more you set yourself to obey the law the more you will fail.

                              Thou shalt not lust immediately awakens lust in the flesh when we try to live in obedience to that law.

                              That is what the law is for. I am FREE both from the law and the sin and the curse attached to it..I receive the blessing attached to obedience to the law through Christ who kept it on my behalf .

                              He is my Righteousness.
                              I'm glad you've seen the light. Finally

                              Comment

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