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  • #91
    Originally posted by Stripe View Post
    Can you quote the passages where it does so?

    Can you quote the passages where it does so?

    Can you quote the passages where it does so?

    Didn't think so.
    I also answer my own questions before people can respond, it's the most reliable path to truth.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Mulla Sadra View Post
      How did you acquire sureness of the whole History of Islam ?
      you don't need the whole history

      you just need to look at all the wars that have involved Islam

      have you looked at them?
      a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

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      • #93
        Originally posted by chrysostom View Post
        look at all the wars that have involved Islam
        So it is a warfare history (not WHOLE history, I am going to let that go for you).

        So you are sure of the WHOLE warfare history of Islam ? (look at bolded)
        in houses which Allah has ordered to be raised and that His name be mentioned therein; exalting Him within them in the morning and the evenings

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        • #94
          I may have missed a few
          but
          that is not important

          we have enough of them to see the trouble Islam has caused
          a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

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          • #95
            Originally posted by chrysostom View Post
            I may have missed a few
            but
            that is not important

            we have enough of them to see the trouble Islam has caused
            Please, Don't change your answers too much, I don't like to do conclusion on an answer you don't mean (I don't want to be unjust with you).

            How Battles you have read of relate to Islam ?
            in houses which Allah has ordered to be raised and that His name be mentioned therein; exalting Him within them in the morning and the evenings

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            • #96
              Originally posted by chrysostom View Post
              you don't need the whole history

              you just need to look at all the wars that have involved Islam

              have you looked at them?
              You mean like the Crusades?

              What about the Christian 30 Years War that decimated the population of Europe like a plague? It's not the faith, but certain adherents in certain concentrations.

              Again, do the math. It isn't hard, only inconvenient for you.
              You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

              Pro-Life






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              • #97
                Originally posted by Town Heretic View Post
                You mean like the Crusades?

                What about the Christian 30 Years War that decimated the population of Europe like a plague? It's not the faith, but certain adherents in certain concentrations.

                Again, do the math. It isn't hard, only inconvenient for you.
                Wait ..........

                He might have some right within .
                in houses which Allah has ordered to be raised and that His name be mentioned therein; exalting Him within them in the morning and the evenings

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by Town Heretic View Post
                  You mean like the Crusades?

                  What about the Christian 30 Years War that decimated the population of Europe like a plague? It's not the faith, but certain adherents in certain concentrations.

                  Again, do the math. It isn't hard, only inconvenient for you.
                  But if they do not share the same God as you (since both can't be true), then their religion only serves as an excuse waiting for anyone to oppress and to fleece.

                  If their religion doesn't grant any supernatural morality or benefit - then what purpose does it truly have or advantage over any other book?

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                  • #99
                    Yes, the quran, hadith, sira, and sunnah all encourage jihad by the sword.

                    This is even more obvious when you learn of naskh/abrogation and learn which verses came last and abrogated the most earlier verses.

                    The hadiths, sunnah, and sira merely serve to nail the coffin shut on the topic.

                    The bare bones of the pro-terrorist view of the islamic teachings, as I understand it, springs from the fact that in the holy texts of islam, EVERYONE is born as a muslim - so those who are not currently muslims have apostatized, and apostates under sharia can never be considered innocents, so the death of non-muslims is perfectly ok.

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                    • Originally posted by moparguy View Post
                      Yes, the quran, hadith, sira, and sunnah all encourage jihad by the sword.

                      This is even more obvious when you learn of naskh/abrogation and learn which verses came last and abrogated the most earlier verses.

                      The hadiths, sunnah, and sira merely serve to nail the coffin shut on the topic.

                      The bare bones of the pro-terrorist view of the islamic teachings, as I understand it, springs from the fact that in the holy texts of islam, EVERYONE is born as a muslim - so those who are not currently muslims have apostatized, and apostates under sharia can never be considered innocents, so the death of non-muslims is perfectly ok.
                      1- Naskh actually deleted some of the War verses not visa-versa.
                      2-You are making a loud fallacy of mixing "Islam" as supplication to God, and "Islam" as a religion.
                      3- BTW, Sira if not authenticated by Hadeeth is not a proof in Islamic Traditional Sciences, to separate them is one of the known mis-understandings of those who share their hatred of Islam.
                      in houses which Allah has ordered to be raised and that His name be mentioned therein; exalting Him within them in the morning and the evenings

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                      • Originally posted by Mulla Sadra View Post
                        1- Naskh actually deleted some of the War verses not visa-versa.
                        What of 9:6 and 9:29?

                        2-You are making a loud fallacy of mixing "Islam" as supplication to God, and "Islam" as a religion.
                        I don't see how I could have, considering that I didn't define "islam."

                        3- BTW, Sira if not authenticated by Hadeeth is not a proof in Islamic Traditional Sciences, to separate them is one of the known mis-understandings of those who share their hatred of Islam.
                        I didn't claim that sira that are un-corroborated by bukhari/muslim/quran are authoritative. I am aware that there are sources that have more or less authority.

                        I was simply listing all of the sources in Islam that I knew of.

                        I gather it is the quran at the top, than bukhari, than muslim... who comes after that I have no idea.

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                        • what the ... double post.

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                          • Originally posted by moparguy View Post
                            What of 9:6 and 9:29?



                            I don't see how I could have, considering that I didn't define "islam."



                            I didn't claim that sira that are un-corroborated by bukhari/muslim/quran are authoritative. I am aware that there are sources that have more or less authority.

                            I was simply listing all of the sources in Islam that I knew of.

                            I gather it is the quran at the top, than bukhari, than muslim... who comes after that I have no idea.
                            1- You know that if the verse is before or after in the Uthamani Quran, doesn't mean anything to its timeline surely. (it might or mightn't)

                            Also, Naskh is in an exact law, and not in whole state, means if the verse is in the timeline of War, it doesn't do "Naskh" for the other verse, it just mean it is the law when we are in War, and the verse when not in War is the law to be used when we aren't.


                            The verses you talked about :

                            9:6
                            And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.

                            9:29
                            Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

                            ------------------------------------------

                            Both verses are in the same time (during the first war with polytheists), so there's no kind of "Naskh" whatsoever.

                            The first means : if someone from your enemy DURING WAR came to seek peace in your land, then treat him well, but if he doesn't become part of your religion (country), then sent him out of the country to a place you are sure he's unharmed in from those whom he sought peace from.
                            Hear Words of God might be 10 days, or 10 centuries, it is more to be identified by the one who came to seek peace.
                            Means, Don't allow war-combatant enemies who come to your country in peace live permanently in your country. (So it is a legislation of POWs and defects, you are veteran, you should know about this).
                            Note that the prophet added that, if a POW knows how to read and write, then he can teach that to 10 of the Muslims and then he can be allowed to stay or go wherever he wants.

                            [If a non-muslim come to Country of Islam, not during a war with his country, he's allowed to stay, but in the terms that he accept Sharia Laws like any other muslim in the country of Islam, just like what is happening to American companies in Saudi Arabia]

                            The second : is an order of the start of the first War with polytheists after they broke the treaty in attacking one of the tribes that allied the prophet, Check the context.

                            Note : Naskh happened for instance, that Muslims weren't allowed to marry from people of scripture during war, but then it was allowed, not in the name of "No War" but in the name of "Always", because it was about Personal rights not Governmental laws, get it ?

                            2- What would you say if I told you that Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim aren't fully right source to go to for me and other 350 million shia muslim (and God knows how much Sunni).

                            in houses which Allah has ordered to be raised and that His name be mentioned therein; exalting Him within them in the morning and the evenings

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                            • Originally posted by xAvarice View Post
                              I also answer my own questions before people can respond, it's the most reliable path to truth.
                              See?
                              Where is the evidence for a global flood?
                              E≈mc2
                              "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

                              "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
                              -Bob B.

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                              • Originally posted by moparguy View Post
                                The bare bones of the pro-terrorist view of the islamic teachings, as I understand it, springs from the fact that in the holy texts of islam, EVERYONE is born as a muslim - so those who are not currently muslims have apostatized, and apostates under sharia can never be considered innocents, so the death of non-muslims is perfectly ok.


                                Yes I have read that Islam considers ALL people born as Muslim and why they are so adamant about their Shahadah.

                                It is a belief of course that ONLY exists with Islam. Christianity, Judaism, and Catholicism all teach different infant dedication but none of them believe a child is born into their faith, only that sooner or later they are baptized into their faith.


                                But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect. 1 Peter 3:15 (NIV)
                                Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)
                                For this very reason, make every effort by your faith to produce virtue, by virtue knowledge, 6 by knowledge self-control, by self-control steadfastness, by steadfastness godliness, 7 by godliness brotherly affection, and by brotherly affection love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will make you effective and productive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-8 (NIV)

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