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  • ECT: Who is the 'Rock', Peter or Christ?

    Here is the text in question:

    Matthew 16:13-18
    13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
    14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
    15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
    16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
    18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    Now take a look at what scripture has that shows us clearly who it is:

    Deuteronomy 32:3-4 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

    Deuteronomy 32:15,18 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation……Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.


    What does this say…?

    2 Samuel 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?


    What does David say?…

    Psalms 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

    Psalms 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

    Psalms 95:1 O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.


    and Isaiah:

    Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.


    And we read in Matthew:

    Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

    And Luke:

    Luke 20:17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?

    And we read what Paul wrote:

    Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

    1 Corinthians 3:9-11 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

    1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

    And from Peter himself:

    1 Peter 2:4-6 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

    Acts 4:8-12 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

    The Bible is clear and in complete harmony that Christ is the only rock and we are but stones which are built upon him. Now perhaps the best evidence that Christ did not appoint Peter as the “rock” on which He would build His church is the fact that none of those who heard Christ upon this occasion— not even Peter— construed His words in that way, either during the time that Christ was on earth or later. Had Christ made Peter chief among the disciples, they would not have been involved in repeated arguments afterward about which of them “should be accounted the greatest”.

  • #2
    Peter is petros, but Jesus is petra.

    Peter is a stone, but Christ is the rock.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Hobie View Post
      Here is the text in question:

      Matthew 16:13-18
      13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
      14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
      15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
      16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
      17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
      18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
      Alfred Edersheim explains the meaning of the "rock" here:

      "Perhaps it might be expressed in this somewhat clumsy paraphrase: 'Thou art Peter (Petros)--a Stone or Rock--and upon this Petra--the Rock, the Petrine--will I found My Church...so Christ promised that He would build His Church on the Petrine in Peter--on his faith and confession."

      Comment


      • #4
        The Rock.

        "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Hobie View Post
          Here is the text in question:

          Matthew 16:13-18
          13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
          14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
          15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
          16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
          17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
          18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

          Now take a look at what scripture has that shows us clearly who it is:

          Deuteronomy 32:3-4 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

          Deuteronomy 32:15,18 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation……Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.


          What does this say…?

          2 Samuel 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?


          What does David say?…

          Psalms 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

          Psalms 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

          Psalms 95:1 O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.


          and Isaiah:

          Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.


          And we read in Matthew:

          Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

          And Luke:

          Luke 20:17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?

          And we read what Paul wrote:

          Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

          1 Corinthians 3:9-11 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

          1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

          And from Peter himself:

          1 Peter 2:4-6 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

          Acts 4:8-12 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

          The Bible is clear and in complete harmony that Christ is the only rock and we are but stones which are built upon him. Now perhaps the best evidence that Christ did not appoint Peter as the “rock” on which He would build His church is the fact that none of those who heard Christ upon this occasion— not even Peter— construed His words in that way, either during the time that Christ was on earth or later. Had Christ made Peter chief among the disciples, they would not have been involved in repeated arguments afterward about which of them “should be accounted the greatest”.
          That was a really enlightened post.

          I want to say too that Jesus says the gates of Hades will not overcome it is about Jesus when he went to hell/prison/Hades. The gates of Hades could not keep him there.
          Oh how I love the Word of God!

          Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

          Comment


          • #6
            Petros is Peter and petra is Christ, this is the theory right now. Petros is the masculine form of petra, which means rock. Because Peter is a man, petra was changed to Petros instead, and petra in Matthew 16:18 means Christ Jesus instead---you know, because Jesus is a man, that's why petra was left as a feminine noun, because it refers to Christ, a man; and Petros refers to Peter, another man, and that's why Petros is the masculine form of petra, which is feminie, it's because petra refers to the Lord Jesus Christ is why petra was left feminine, because Jesus was also a man, and Peter was a man, and that's why Petros is masculine, because Peter was a man, and that's why petra is left feminine, because petra refers to Jesus, not Peter, because Peter and Jesus were both men, that's why Petros is masculine, and petra is feminine.

            And nevermind that the conversation took place in a Hebraic tongue and not in Greek. Nevermind that.

            Peter, and Peter's Trinitarian confession, is the rock in Matthew 16:18. And Catholicism is therefore Christianity, plainly. Trinitarian, ancient, and built upon St. Peter, the Pope is Peter's successor, just like how Trump is Washington's successor, nothing more mystical than that obvious historical fact. Francis succeeds Peter like how the Donald succeeds George.
            "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

            @Nee_Nihilo

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Idolater View Post
              Petros is Peter and petra is Christ, this is the theory right now. Petros is the masculine form of petra, which means rock. Because Peter is a man, petra was changed to Petros instead, and petra in Matthew 16:18 means Christ Jesus instead---you know, because Jesus is a man, that's why petra was left as a feminine noun, because it refers to Christ, a man; and Petros refers to Peter, another man, and that's why Petros is the masculine form of petra, which is feminie, it's because petra refers to the Lord Jesus Christ is why petra was left feminine, because Jesus was also a man, and Peter was a man, and that's why Petros is masculine, because Peter was a man, and that's why petra is left feminine, because petra refers to Jesus, not Peter, because Peter and Jesus were both men, that's why Petros is masculine, and petra is feminine.

              And nevermind that the conversation took place in a Hebraic tongue and not in Greek. Nevermind that.

              Peter, and Peter's Trinitarian confession, is the rock in Matthew 16:18. And Catholicism is therefore Christianity, plainly. Trinitarian, ancient, and built upon St. Peter, the Pope is Peter's successor, just like how Trump is Washington's successor, nothing more mystical than that obvious historical fact. Francis succeeds Peter like how the Donald succeeds George.
              Hi and the Greek word I WILL BUILD / OIKODOMEO is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE , ACTIVE VOICE and in the INDICATIVE MOOD !!

              This is what many call the NEAR VIEW as that is what Matt 16:18 refers to !!

              The FAR VIEW is Future because Israel was set aside a written in 1 Cor 12:13-15 and the Far View will be , ar the SECOND COMING of Christ to save Israel !!

              The ACTIVE VOICE means that the subject , CHRIST will build his EKKLESIA / ASSEMBLY !!

              The INDICATIVE MOOD means it is a FACT !!

              There is no such thing as APOSTOLIC SECESSION , just as there is no Greek word for PURGATORY !!

              DAN P

              Comment


              • #8
                When Jesus renamed Simon and called him Peter (rock) He was signifying that the revelation that God had given him of Christ being The Christ, The Son of The Living God is the 'rock' that His Church is built upon. We all have revelation of Him being our Saviour and our God, because God granted us that revelation or we'd still be lost. His Kingdom is in us, the believers. We have this 'rock' of revelation knowledge and we come into closer relationship with Him with more and more revelation of His Truth every single day.
                "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

                If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Aimiel View Post
                  When Jesus renamed Simon and called him Peter (rock) He was signifying that the revelation that God had given him of Christ being The Christ, The Son of The Living God is the 'rock' that His Church is built upon. We all have revelation of Him being our Saviour and our God, because God granted us that revelation or we'd still be lost. His Kingdom is in us, the believers. We have this 'rock' of revelation knowledge and we come into closer relationship with Him with more and more revelation of His Truth every single day.
                  And, He named, Simon, "ROCK". Peter. Petros. Rock.
                  "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

                  @Nee_Nihilo

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Idolater View Post
                    And, He named, Simon, "ROCK". Peter. Petros. Rock.
                    And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. - Matthew 16:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...p;version=NKJV

                    Jesus didn't say, "upon this petros I will build My church."

                    He said, "you are petros, and on this PETRA I will build my church, and the Gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."

                    If it was truly Peter, Jesus would have had made a huge mistake, as Peter crumbled before the gates of Hades when he denied that he knew Christ three times before the rooster crowed. In other words, Peter was not a very good foundation to build a church upon.

                    Now... Jesus on the other hand, he is called the rock, PETRA, of offense.

                    Jesus made the distinction between Peter and Himself in Matthew 16:18, and established HIMSELF as the foundation for His church, because no other foundation would do.

                    Would you agree that Peter was not a good foundation to build a church upon, as compared to Jesus?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post

                      And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. - Matthew 16:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...p;version=NKJV

                      Jesus didn't say, "upon this petros I will build My church."

                      He said, "you are petros, and on this PETRA I will build my church, and the Gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."

                      If it was truly Peter, Jesus would have had made a huge mistake, as Peter crumbled before the gates of Hades when he denied that he knew Christ three times before the rooster crowed. In other words, Peter was not a very good foundation to build a church upon.

                      Now... Jesus on the other hand, he is called the rock, PETRA, of offense.

                      Jesus made the distinction between Peter and Himself in Matthew 16:18, and established HIMSELF as the foundation for His church, because no other foundation would do.

                      Would you agree that Peter was not a good foundation to build a church upon, as compared to Jesus?
                      You mean to say Peter wasn't perfect? You don't say. 'News to me. :/

                      I agree with what I've already said, which is that the Lord Jesus NAMED Simon "ROCK" (which in the midst of this controversy gets minimized even though it is the least controversial thing that we know). And then He said that He'd build His own Church "upon this rock". In the Hebraic Aramaic there isn't the petros /petra distinction, so when this conversation actually occurred, Jesus just said, "You are 'rock', and upon this rock I will build My Church", and from the Apostolic era until the 1500s every Christian believed that He meant Peter and that He meant, "Peter, you are going to be the first supreme pastor of My Church", iow the first pope.

                      You on the other hand subscribe to a personal theory about the one Christian faith that finds no support in historical facts, but depends upon conspiracies and basically wholesale apostasy that wasn't corrected until something like that the KJV was first published, which is an abridged version of the actual Christian Scripture, and then Dispensationalism was invented based upon the KJV.

                      If the Lord actually chose Peter to be the first supreme pastor of His Church, iow if I and all of Christian history for 1500 years am right, then you are guilty of second-guessing His judgment. I know this means nothing to you because you reserve zero chance that your view is incorrect, but it'd be irresponsible for me to not point it out to you.
                      "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

                      @Nee_Nihilo

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Who would you build your church on, Jesus or Peter?
                        He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                        Jim Elliot

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Idolater View Post
                          And nevermind that the conversation took place in a Hebraic tongue and not in Greek. Nevermind that.
                          And just how, exactly, do you know this?
                          All of my ancestors are human.
                          Originally posted by Squeaky
                          That explains why your an idiot.
                          Originally posted by God's Truth
                          Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                          Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                          (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                          1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                          (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                          Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Idolater View Post
                            If the Lord actually chose Peter to be the first supreme pastor of His Church, iow if I and all of Christian history for 1500 years am right, then you are guilty of second-guessing His judgment. I know this means nothing to you because you reserve zero chance that your view is incorrect, but it'd be irresponsible for me to not point it out to you.
                            More conjecture based on your bias instead of actual Biblical doctrine.

                            Peter was one of twelve. Never is there an indication in scripture that "Peter is supreme" compared to the others.

                            All of my ancestors are human.
                            Originally posted by Squeaky
                            That explains why your an idiot.
                            Originally posted by God's Truth
                            Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                            Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                            (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                            1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                            (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                            Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                            Comment

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