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  • #31
    Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
    We reject your totally bogus definition of "predestination".
    What is your definition of predestination?
    αξιον εστιν το αρνιον
    Worthy is the Lamb

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
      That is obviously not right, since SOLA SCRIPTURA cannot be proved using the Holy Scriptures alone and each of the others are misrepresented by Calvinists to the point of not being Biblical.
      So what other source besides the Holy Scriptures do you turn to?

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
        So what other source besides the Holy Scriptures do you turn to?
        We can trace the creation of the Bible to the early Christians from the time of Christ till the time when the Catholic church decided to wield apostate authority.

        3 Big Problems with the Protestant Doctrine of “Sola Scriptura” (Scripture Alone)

        1) The Bible rejects it
        Where do Protestants get the idea that the Bible alone is the highest authority for Christians? Is this taught anywhere in the Bible?

        Actually, no. Pretty much all of the verses to which Protestants usually point to answer this question indeed speak highly of the authority of Scripture and its importance for the people of God (e.g. Psalm 119, 2 Timothy 3:16-17, et al), but none of them say that the Bible alone is the only authority.

        No only that, but the Bible upholds the authority of oral tradition alongside Scripture in contradiction of sola scriptura. In 2 Thessalonians 2.15, St. Paul writes: “So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.” St. Paul is saying that his teachings are authoritative, whether he gave them by speaking (oral tradition) or writing (Scripture).

        2) It can’t explain where we got the Bible
        If the Bible is the only authority for Christians, then where did Christians get the Bible in the first place? Who determined what books should be in the Bible?

        God did not hand Christians a fully compiled Bible out of the sky. Rather, God inspired many different writers over the course of many centuries to write the various books of the Bible. And then God inspired the Catholic Church, wielding apostolic authority and relying on oral tradition of what books are inspired, to definitively compile the biblical canon in the 4th century.

        This means that the biblical canon itself depends on the very authority of oral tradition and ecclesiastical authority that Protestants reject.

        3) It doesn’t work
        The Bible has to be interpreted. Even when people think it’s clear what the Bible is saying, they are interpreting it. The problem is different Christians often interpret the Bible in contradictory, mutually exclusive ways. When that happens (and it happens constantly), how does the Christian church settle disagreements and safeguard the Gospel truth God has revealed in Jesus Christ?

        Because if Christians can’t agree on what the Gospel is, they can’t fulfill their responsibility to preach it.

        Sola scriptura offers no way out of these disagreements, except for Christians to split and go their separate ways – hence, myriad denominations. But this is a problem, too, because the Bible teaches that division among Christians is a sin (cf. 1 Cor 1.10ff, et al)!

        Learn to read what is written.

        _____
        The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
        ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
          No only that, but the Bible upholds the authority of oral tradition alongside Scripture in contradiction of sola scriptura.
          Who do you depend on for this "oral tradition"?

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
            Who do you depend on for this "oral tradition"?
            The oral tradition at the time of the Apostles led to the writing of the New Testament.
            At this time, we do not have any authoritative source of an oral tradition, so we have to depend on the writings that were left behind.

            Do you believe in Sola Scriptura for all doctrines?
            Then you must reject Sola Scriptura because it is not a doctrine that can be found in the Bible.
            Learn to read what is written.

            _____
            The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
            ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
              We can trace the creation of the Bible to the early Christians from the time of Christ till the time when the Catholic church decided to wield apostate authority.
              So the church at Rome is your authority? But don't you understand that the "traditions" of that church contradict what Peter said here:

              "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved"
              (Acts 4:10-12).

              According to the "tradition" of the church at Rome there is another name besides that of Jesus Christ of Nazareth whereby people are saved, and that name is Mary:
              "Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation ... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix" (Catechism of the Catholic Church # 969).

              Rome puts her traditions above what the Scriptures actually teach. And you put more faith in the traditions of the church at Rome than you do in what the Scriptures say.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Dialogos View Post
                So what does it mean that God is just?
                It means that He isn't arbitrary as Calvin taught and as nearly every Calvinist believes.

                I mean, think about it. If the king of a nation ruled his country by arbitrary fiat command, putting some in castles and other in prison for no reason at all other than his will to do so, would you consider that king to be just or a tyrant?

                You guys are all the time talking about how God's ways are higher than our ways. Well, true but that aren't lower than our ways! Why would anyone think God just for doing the same thing as an unjust man? It simply makes no sense whatsover!

                Not only that but the literally blasphemous notion that God arbitrarily chooses to punish people for eternity in Hell is the furthest thing from being biblical! You guys preach sola scriptura all day long until it runs smack into your own doctrine then it become Sola Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3!


                Read Ezekiel 18. Seriously. Read that one rather short chapter. That's just about as good an answer as I can think of to the question, "What does it mean that God is just?"


                If the "reason" for predestination isn't the will of God alone (a notion to which you appear to object), then what is the "reason" for our predestination?

                Or do you simply, flatly reject the scriptures teaching on predestination?
                I reject the Calvinist teaching on predestination.

                The bible speaks about certain things being predestined, which individuals will be saved and which will go to Hell isn't one of them.

                A person is predestined for glory if and when he becomes a member of the Body of Christ.
                sigpic
                "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                  We can trace the creation of the Bible to the early Christians from the time of Christ till the time when the Catholic church decided to wield apostate authority.
                  Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                  So the church at Rome is your authority?
                  Please put your reading glasses on and read what I said again, since your question shows that you did not actually read what I wrote.

                  Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                  But don't you understand that the "traditions" of that church contradict what Peter said
                  Of course I understand that.
                  That is why I said the the Catholic church wields apostate authority, even though they make the false claim of wielding apostolic authority.
                  Learn to read what is written.

                  _____
                  The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                  ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                    Please put your reading glasses on and read what I said again, since your question shows that you did not actually read what I wrote.
                    I asked you which "traditions" you follow you mentioned the church at Rome. But you say that wasn't the answer to my question. So where do you find the "traditions" which you mentioned which reveal Divine truths not found in the Bible?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Clete View Post
                      It means that He isn't arbitrary as Calvin taught and as nearly every Calvinist believes.
                      Well, first of all, this isn't what all Calvinists believe. There is no genuine victory in pushing down straw men. Calvinism espouses that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and therefore, apart from God, all are "predestined" to hell. There are some who are supralapsarian but I would venture to say that a good many, if not most, of those who hold to the doctrines of grace are either infralapsarian or sublapsarian.

                      Ergo, the most common Calvinistic belief is that God, because of His will, chooses to save some from the just condemnation of their sin and to show mercy. Justice doesn't mean all sinners get to go to heaven, justice means that we all get what we deserve. You know as well as I do that if Romans 3:23 is true then we all deserve hell, no one, save Christ, escaped a guilty setence. Not all serve time. God is not only just, He is also merciful. Ultimately, you aren't questioning the basis for God's justice, you are questioning the scope of God's mercy. And the scriptures are pretty clear that you aren't entitled to an explanation on who does and does not get to be an object of His mercy.

                      Clete Said:
                      I mean, think about it. If the king of a nation ruled his country by arbitrary fiat command, putting some in castles and other in prison for no reason at all other than his will to do so, would you consider that king to be just or a tyrant?
                      If the king justly condemned all of his citizens to prison for sedition and then commuted the sentences of some the others would have no cause to accuse the king of injustice.

                      Clete said:
                      Read Ezekiel 18. Seriously. Read that one rather short chapter. That's just about as good an answer as I can think of to the question, "What does it mean that God is just?"
                      Right. God justly punishes unrighteousness and exonerates the righteous. Did Jesus come to earth to preside over an awards ceremony for those righteous enough to merit eternal salvation?
                      αξιον εστιν το αρνιον
                      Worthy is the Lamb

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Nang View Post
                        Calvinists, holding to the historical Reformed Faith of the Protestant churches, witness to the following Gospel doctrines:

                        Sinners are saved by the grace of God only (SOLA GRATIA), through God’s gift of faith alone (SOLA FIDE), in the righteousness of Jesus Christ alone (SOLUS CHRISTUS), as revealed to mankind from God via the Holy Scriptures alone (SOLA SCRIPTURA), to the glory of God alone (SOLA DEO GLORIA)!
                        I accept these things BUT I abhor Calvinism because of their doctrine about 1. how people become singers, 2, election to heaven and damnation. <shrug>
                        I Champion GOD’s holiness:
                        - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                        - All evil is creature-created.

                        I Champion Our Free will:
                        - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                          I asked you which "traditions" you follow you mentioned the church at Rome.
                          Your logic is like saying, "The Bible mentions Satan, therefore the Bible is Satanic".
                          Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                          But you say that wasn't the answer to my question.
                          I gave my answer to your question, but you are making every effort to refuse to read it.

                          Let's recap how we got to this point in the discussion.
                          Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                          That is obviously not right, since SOLA SCRIPTURA cannot be proved using the Holy Scriptures alone and each of the others are misrepresented by Calvinists to the point of not being Biblical.
                          Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                          So what other source besides the Holy Scriptures do you turn to?
                          Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                          We can trace the creation of the Bible to the early Christians from the time of Christ till the time when the Catholic church decided to wield apostate authority.
                          Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                          So where do you find the "traditions" which you mentioned which reveal Divine truths not found in the Bible?
                          My point is that SOLA SCRIPTURA cannot be a Biblical doctrine since the Bible never teaches SOLA SCRIPTURA.
                          You asked about other sources besides the Bible.
                          I replied about the creation of the Bible by the early Christians that lived during the time after Christ and before the apostasy of the Christians in Rome created the Roman Catholic church.
                          My intent was to show that the Christians that lived in the first, second, and third centuries knew enough of the truth to gather together the documents that make up our Bible.
                          Now you ask for another source that can reveal Divine truths that are not found in the Bible.
                          Your Bible probably does not contain the Apocrypha, even though it was a part of the original King James Version of the Bible.
                          Your Bible probably does not contain the book of Enoch, even though it is referenced in the book of Jude.
                          Your Bible probably does not contain the writings of the Ante-Nicene Fathers, even though they lived during the time that the Bible was being assembled.

                          Your doctrines probably rely upon the writings of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, especially the twisting of scripture done by Saint Augustine of Hippo, which do not contain the truth.
                          Learn to read what is written.

                          _____
                          The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                          ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Dialogos View Post
                            Well, first of all, this isn't what all Calvinists believe.
                            Oh yes it is! I've been debating Calvinists for decades and I have the quotes to prove it.

                            Of course, they do not put it in those terms but a rose by any other name is still a rose.

                            There is no genuine victory in pushing down straw men.
                            That's my line.

                            Calvinism espouses that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and therefore, apart from God, all are "predestined" to hell.
                            ThIS IS NOT CALVINIST DOCTRINE!!!

                            If you think it is, you're wrong.

                            There are some who are supralapsarian but I would venture to say that a good many, if not most, of those who hold to the doctrines of grace are either infralapsarian or sublapsarian.
                            I have yet to find one single Calvinists, of any stripe, who is willing to say that Calvin was wrong when he said this...
                            “God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)

                            “… predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9)

                            “Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

                            “We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)

                            I have an entire thread devoted to trying to see if there are any Calvinists who are willing to disavow several severely blasphemous comments by Calvin in the books he wrote that effectively define what came to be called Calvinism. In fact, Calvinism exists precisely because of those books.

                            Ergo, the most common Calvinistic belief is that God, because of His will, chooses to save some from the just condemnation of their sin and to show mercy.
                            This is an equivocation at best. You're making a distinction without a difference. I mean, of course God has chosen to save some but not all. That is not in question. The question is whether it has to do with God choosing specific individuals before they ever existed and if so why where those individuals selected and not others. Calvinists do not believe that there is any "why" to it (see quotes from Calvin above). In other words, if you believed what the words of your statement would seem to mean then there would be no difference between Calvinism and Arminianism or nearly any other "ism".

                            Justice doesn't mean all sinners get to go to heaven, justice means that we all get what we deserve.
                            Not if what that sinner deserves has been willfully taken by Another!

                            The entire gospel is predicated upon justice! If justice were not an issue or if justice was defined by whatever God happens to do, then there would be no need for Christ to die.

                            And, make no mistake, Calvinists do not believe that Christ's death was necessary. At least not in the normal sense of the word "necessary". His death was just as much an arbitrary determination as was every other event (no matter how vile or disgusting) that has or will ever happen that God, planned, predestined, ordained, and commanded to occur.
                            “The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)


                            ...Nor ought it to seem absurd when I say, that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23)


                            You know as well as I do that if Romans 3:23 is true then we all deserve hell, no one, save Christ, escaped a guilty sentence. Not all serve time. God is not only just, He is also merciful. Ultimately, you aren't questioning the basis for God's justice, you are questioning the scope of God's mercy. And the scriptures are pretty clear that you aren't entitled to an explanation on who does and does not get to be an object of His mercy.
                            The bible is replete with explanations of who God is merciful to, it is only Calvinists that think it's a big mystery and they only think that because they think that God predestined everything that happens. It is nothing at all but one doctrine built upon another doctrine which is built upon yet another doctrine, none of which are biblical or even rational. It's the absolute furthest thing there is from "sola scriptura"!

                            If the king justly condemned all of his citizens to prison for sedition and then commuted the sentences of some the others would have no cause to accuse the king of injustice.
                            So you have no concept of justice then! Not surprising! And that's not because you're stupid but because you're a Calvinist.

                            If someone is a criminal then not punishing him is as unjust as punishing the innocent.
                            Ezekiel 13:19 And will you profane Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, killing people who should not die, and keeping people alive who should not live,...

                            Right. God justly punishes unrighteousness and exonerates the righteous.
                            Pretty much crushes total depravity to dust as well as original sin.

                            Not to mention that it is one of perhaps hundreds of places where God tells us very clearly who will and who will not be shown mercy. An explanation that you just got through tell me that I have no right to even ask about. Again, this sort of double mindedness is entirely typical for Calvinists. It seems their minds are so compartmentalized that they can't detect when they've contradicted themselves inside of even two or three sentences.

                            Did Jesus come to earth to preside over an awards ceremony for those righteous enough to merit eternal salvation?
                            What does this idiotic question even mean? In what universe is it even remotely connected to anything I've said?

                            God became a man so that He could die the death we deserve so that He would be able to show mercy to those who would believe while still meeting the demands of justice.

                            Clete
                            sigpic
                            "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                              So the Lord gives a so-called "gift of faith" to only some people and therefore only some people can believe and be saved?

                              I just cannot believe that the LORD's will is that some people are doomed to hell as soon as they emerge from the womb and there is absolutely nothing that they can do to avoid hell!

                              That is not the God of mercy and grace revealed in the Bible!
                              Can a child of, say, 6 years old savingly believe? If so, what is it that causes that child to believe?
                              If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

                              The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
                              Jeremiah 17:9

                              Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
                              Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

                              Isaiah 50:10-11

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                                That is obviously not right, since SOLA SCRIPTURA cannot be proved using the Holy Scriptures alone and each of the others are misrepresented by Calvinists to the point of not being Biblical.
                                I would tend to disagree with that assertion :

                                To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
                                Isaiah 8:20
                                If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

                                The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
                                Jeremiah 17:9

                                Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
                                Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

                                Isaiah 50:10-11

                                Comment

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