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  • #16
    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Calvinism teaches that faith is a gift given by God and only some people have the ability to believe the gospel. And according to Calvinism all those who have the ability to believe will believe and be saved.

    Is that what Calvinism teaches?
    Explain John 6:37.
    αξιον εστιν το αρνιον
    Worthy is the Lamb

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Dialogos View Post
      Explain John 6:37.
      The Father gives to the Son all those who believe.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Dialogos View Post
        Explain John 6:37.
        John 14:6
        "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

        " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
        Gordon H. Clark

        "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
        Charles Spurgeon

        Comment


        • #19
          John 6:44
          "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

          " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
          Gordon H. Clark

          "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
          Charles Spurgeon

          Comment


          • #20
            John 15:5
            "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

            " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
            Gordon H. Clark

            "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
            Charles Spurgeon

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
              The Father gives to the Son all those who believe.
              This is not taught in Holy Scripture.

              Rather, all that the Father draws to the Son, will believe.
              "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

              " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
              Gordon H. Clark

              "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
              Charles Spurgeon

              Comment


              • #22
                Jerry,
                The Father gives to the Son all those who believe.
                Believe what? Are you arguing that it goes like this.
                1. They believe (something),
                2. The Father gives them to Jesus,
                3. They come to Jesus.

                So, what is it they believe in step 1. and then what does it mean to come to Jesus then?
                αξιον εστιν το αρνιον
                Worthy is the Lamb

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Nang View Post
                  John 6:44
                  αξιον εστιν το αρνιον
                  Worthy is the Lamb

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Nang View Post
                    Calvinists, holding to the historical Reformed Faith of the Protestant churches, witness to the following Gospel doctrines:
                    Well, let's take them one at a time and see which hold up and which do not...

                    Sinners are saved by the grace of God only (SOLA GRATIA)
                    This is true, or would be if Calvinists would refrain from redefining nearly every word in the English language that has any religious connotation to it.

                    The phrase "saved by grace alone", in the twisted Calvinist delusion, means "predestined for salvation for no reason whatsoever".
                    “God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)

                    “… predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9)

                    “Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

                    “We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)

                    Since we know that God is just and not arbitrary we know that what the Calvinist means by Sola Gatia is false.

                    Having said that, there was no obligation for God to save anyone. God would have been well within His rights to wipe Adam and Eve from existence the moment that forbidden fruit touched their lips. He chose however to have mercy and put in motion that which He had planned from the beginning which was to provide a way of salvation for those who would believe. Those saved had nothing to do with the plan of salvation, they didn't petition for it, they weren't consulted about it nor were they involved in it's formation in anyway whatsoever because none of them existed when God Himself thought it through, planned it and carried it out, which He did in spite of the forces working against Him, not because of them. It is this desire, willingness and power to save that is God's grace and it is the only reason that we sinners have any hope whatsoever. Thus sola gracia.

                    through God’s gift of faith alone (SOLA FIDE),
                    Of course, as with the rest of these, the truthfulness of the doctrine depends on the meaning of the words used to define it.

                    Which gift is the Calvinist talking about and does their ideas about this gift and it's being given turn God into an arbitrary control freak?
                    I've yet to find a Calvinist who believed otherwise.

                    Leaving that aside for now, salvation has not always been through faith alone. From Abraham right through until Paul, it was faith plus good works. Now, today, in this present dispensation we are indeed saved by grace through faith alone but in the previous dispensation that was not the case.
                    James 2: 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

                    If you reject the dispensational view, which Calvinists often do, then your problem is even worse because James 2:24 directly and irrefutably contradicts the notion of sola fide.

                    (James 2 is not the only place this is taught. See also Ezekiel 18 and several other places throughout the scripture.)

                    So, sola fide, only works when properly understood from within a mid-Acts dispensational frame work.

                    in the righteousness of Jesus Christ alone (SOLUS CHRISTUS),
                    It's hard to get this one wrong. The Calvinist trust in the righteousness of Christ for their salvation is perhaps their only saving grace (literally). It is what prevents them from being an entirely different religion from Christianity.

                    Some take this idea too far and suggest that Christ is the only one who ever preformed a righteous act - period. But that's so obviously false that it's hardly worth discussing and so long as the doctrine is not used to go to such irrational extremes, there's nothing in sola Christus to disagree with.

                    as revealed to mankind from God via the Holy Scriptures alone (SOLA SCRIPTURA),
                    This one is flatly false and obviously so.

                    It's a doctrine that the bible doesn't teach and so it contradicts itself. Not to mention the fact that there were people saved long before the bible was written and there are those saved who have never heard of the bible. Romans 2:12-15

                    Having said that, the bible is our first authority in matters of Christian doctrine and practice. Or to put it another way, no true doctrine contradicts the bible.

                    to the glory of God alone (SOLA DEO GLORIA)!
                    The plan of salvation certainly bring glory to God. There can be no doubt about that but that isn't why God did it. He did it because He loves us and wants to bless us and promises to glorify us in Him. There are a list of benefits that would stretch to the Moon and back both for God and mankind.

                    The glory of God is accomplished to a tremendous degree but it is not the sole reason God does what He does.

                    Anyone who declares these Calvinist beliefs & teachings to be delusional, deny the very Gospel message that alone will save souls.
                    And this sentence is itself the Calvinist delusion! They think that their doctrinal distinctives are the very gospel itself!

                    They're only baby steps away from being a cult.

                    May God show mercy to those who falsely bring dark accusations against those who walk in the light of Godly TRUTH.
                    Amen!

                    Clete
                    sigpic
                    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Calvinism teaches that faith is a gift given by God and only some people have the ability to believe the gospel. And according to Calvinism all those who have the ability to believe will believe (the so-called "effectual calling" made up by the Calvinists).

                      However, the Scriptures tell a different story:

                      "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).

                      The gospel is hidden to those who are perishing and the god of this age, Satan, is responsible for the gospel being hidden from them. Satan blinded their minds to the gospel for one purpose, "so that they cannot see the light of the gospel."

                      The fact that the minds of those who are perishing can be "blinded" to the gospel proves that they have the ability to see it if their minds were not blinded to it. After all, one must be able to see before being blinded can happen.

                      This demonstrates that even those who are perishing have the ability to believe the gospel and as a result receive salvation. Therefore, it cannot be denied that the Lord's death and the blessings which flow from that death have the potential to be applied to even those who are perishing.
                      Last edited by Jerry Shugart; September 18th, 2019, 12:16 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                        Calvinism teaches that faith is a gift given by God and only some people have the ability to believe the gospel. And according to Calvinism all those who have the ability to believe will believe (the so-called "effectual calling" made up by the Calvinists).

                        However, the Scriptures tell a different story:

                        "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).

                        The gospel is hidden to those who are perishing and the god of this age, Satan, is responsible for the gospel being hidden from them. Satan blinded their minds to the gospel for one purpose, "so that they cannot see the light of the gospel."

                        The fact that the minds of those who are perishing can be "blinded" to the gospel proves that they have the ability to see it if their minds were not blinded to it. After all, one must be able to see before being blinded can happen.

                        This demonstrates that even those who are perishing have the ability to believe the gospel and as a result receive salvation. Therefore, it cannot be denied that the Lord's death and the blessings which flow from that death have the potential to be applied to even those who are perishing.
                        This is a duplicate post to #15 on this forum.

                        Isn't there a rule against duplicate or repeated postings?
                        "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

                        " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
                        Gordon H. Clark

                        "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
                        Charles Spurgeon

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Clete said:
                          Originally posted by Clete View Post
                          Since we know that God is just and not arbitrary we know that what the Calvinist means by Sola Gatia is false.
                          So what does it mean that God is just? If the "reason" for predestination isn't the will of God alone (a notion to which you appear to object), then what is the "reason" for our predestination?

                          Or do you simply, flatly reject the scriptures teaching on predestination?
                          αξιον εστιν το αρνιον
                          Worthy is the Lamb

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Nang View Post
                            This is a duplicate post to #15 on this forum.

                            Isn't there a rule against duplicate or repeated postings?
                            Since none of the Calvinist answered my post of which you speak I thought that perhaps they just overlooked it. But now I see that you didn't overlook it so perhaps you or another Calvinist will actually address what I said.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Dialogos View Post
                              Or do you simply, flatly reject the scriptures teaching on predestination?
                              The Scriptures do speak of predestination but they do not speak of anyone being predestined to salvation. When we look at the following passage we can see that the "called" are believers (them that love God) and it is those who are already believers and are already saved who are predestined:

                              "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Ro.8:28-29).

                              First of all, the Greek word translated "predestinate" means "to predetermine, decide beforehand...to foreordain, appoint beforehand."

                              The key to the teaching of this passage depends on an understanding of the meaning of the Greek word translated "for" found at the beginning of verse twenty-nine. The word is a conjuction which ties the two verses together, and the word means "the reason why anything is said to be or be done..it is added to a speaker's words to show what ground he gives for his opinion" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

                              Here is another translation which makes the meaning even more clear:

                              "And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters"
                              (Ro.8:28-29; NET).

                              At Romans 8:29 Paul tells us why he says that "all things work together for good" for the saved, those he describes as the called: "because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son."

                              The reason why "all things work together for good" in regard to the saved is because the saved are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son. That will happen when the Lord descends from heaven and the saved will put on bodies just like his glorious body:

                              "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body"
                              (Phil.3:20-21; NIV).

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Dialogos View Post
                                Clete said:

                                So what does it mean that God is just? If the "reason" for predestination isn't the will of God alone (a notion to which you appear to object), then what is the "reason" for our predestination?

                                Or do you simply, flatly reject the scriptures teaching on predestination?
                                We reject your totally bogus definition of "predestination".
                                All of my ancestors are human.
                                Originally posted by Squeaky
                                That explains why your an idiot.
                                Originally posted by God's Truth
                                Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                                Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                                (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                                1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                                (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                                Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

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