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Hades / The Grave

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  • #76
    Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
    I suspect all we will find is that your interpretation of scripture supports universalism... sigh.
    Well, with that attitude I guess I won't even bother showing you the scriptures because you've already decided that, no matter what I show you, it doesn't support universalism.

    Sigh. How do you people expect to learn anything? It boggles the mind.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Freedm View Post
      Well, with that attitude I guess I won't even bother showing you the scriptures because you've already decided that, no matter what I show you, it doesn't support universalism.

      Sigh. How do you people expect to learn anything? It boggles the mind.
      It doesn't really fly around here as it conflicts with the "traditional" notions of "hell", even though there's no overall unity on just what that is in itself...
      Well this is fun isn't it?

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      • #78
        Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
        Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.
        Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
        I believe that Death and Hell are not only an action (death) and a place (hell) but that they are also spirits. Otherwise: why should Death or Hell need to be cast into the Lake of Fire? How can you cast an action (death) into a Lake of Fire? Why put a place (hell) into another place; except to torment those two rulers of the darkness of this world who deserve their fate?
        "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

        If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Arthur Brain View Post
          It doesn't really fly around here as it conflicts with the "traditional" notions of "hell", even though there's no overall unity on just what that is in itself...
          Most everything that God said is subject to controversy in one way or another; which, I believe, is designed to give us points for argument and speaking points to spark conversations with. I don't believe we need to fight or call anyone names or say they're anathema due to holding differing opinions.
          "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

          If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Aimiel View Post
            Most everything that God said is subject to controversy in one way or another; which, I believe, is designed to give us points for argument and speaking points to spark conversations with. I don't believe we need to fight or call anyone names or say they're anathema due to holding differing opinions.
            Well, in essence I agree. Productive conversations are those without juvenile insults or squabbling. Disagreement is fine as long as there's room for actual debate.
            Well this is fun isn't it?

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Freedm View Post
              Well, with that attitude I guess I won't even bother showing you the scriptures because you've already decided that, no matter what I show you, it doesn't support universalism.

              Sigh. How do you people expect to learn anything? It boggles the mind.
              A bit late sonny...My faith is 30 years old. I've given thoughtful and prayerful attention to the doctrines of Christ and made my decision. You are not my teacher and your arrogance that you speak the truth and not an interpretation of the truth is all too common, not special.
              I Champion GOD’s holiness:
              - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
              - All evil is creature-created.

              I Champion Our Free will:
              - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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              • #82
                Re: Hades / The Grave

                .
                Rev 20:14 . .Then death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire.

                Webster's-- in so many words --defines "death" as not only the state or the condition of something deceased, but also anything life-threatening, i.e. deadly, lethal, and/or fatal.

                The removal of all hazards that have the potential to kill; assures that the future cosmos will be 100% safe and secure.

                Rev 21:4-5 . .There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away. He who was seated on the throne said: I am making everything new!
                _

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Aimiel View Post
                  I believe that Death and Hell are not only an action (death) and a place (hell) but that they are also spirits. Otherwise: why should Death or Hell need to be cast into the Lake of Fire? How can you cast an action (death) into a Lake of Fire? Why put a place (hell) into another place; except to torment those two rulers of the darkness of this world who deserve their fate?
                  That's an interesting take on it, and I appreciate your outside the box thinking, however the other possibility is that the imagery we see in Revelation 20, that of death and Hades being thrown into the lake of fire, is nothing more than literary symbolism for the "end of" death and Hades, as technically and specifically death "ends" when all are resurrected on the last day.

                  In other words, the very act of giving us back our breath of life, is the end of death. These are not two separate actions or events, but rather one singular event with two results. It's like drying your dishes by removing the water. When you've finished drying the dishes, the dishes are dry and also the water is gone. Two results, from a single event.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Aimiel View Post
                    I believe that Death and Hell are not only an action (death) and a place (hell) but that they are also spirits. Otherwise: why should Death or Hell need to be cast into the Lake of Fire? How can you cast an action (death) into a Lake of Fire? Why put a place (hell) into another place; except to torment those two rulers of the darkness of this world who deserve their fate?
                    Keep in mind that Hades is a word that is simply used to label the state of death, or the place of the dead, but when I say "the place" I don't mean a physical location where people go; rather "going to Hades" is akin to "going to sleep". It's not a literal place, but rather a state of being. Also keep in mind that we all go to Hades when we die, not only the wicked.

                    The translation into "hell", like what the KJV does, is very misleading especially considering the pop culture definition of hell. It's interesting to note that the KJV translates Hades in to "hell" when it speaks of wicked people, but translates that same word into "grave" when it speaks of the righteous. That's a definite bias which reinforces the stereotypical ideas around hell.

                    For example:

                    Matthew 11:23 (KJV)
                    And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell (Hades)

                    Matthew 16:18 (KJV)
                    And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell (Hades) shall not prevail against it.

                    1 Corinthians 15:55 (KJV)
                    O death, where is thy sting? O grave (Hades), where is thy victory?

                    The NKJV leaves it simply as Hades in all cases.

                    The NIV is all over the map, translating the first example as "depths", the second as "Hades" and the third as "death", although those three are arguably the same thing.

                    There are similar inconsistencies in the translations of the words Gehenna and Sheol.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
                      A bit late sonny...My faith is 30 years old. I've given thoughtful and prayerful attention to the doctrines of Christ and made my decision. You are not my teacher and your arrogance that you speak the truth and not an interpretation of the truth is all too common, not special.
                      Does your faith being 30 years old preclude any new learning? If so, at what point are our beliefs "locked in"? At 10 years? 20 years? 30 years?

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
                        A bit late sonny...My faith is 30 years old. I've given thoughtful and prayerful attention to the doctrines of Christ and made my decision. You are not my teacher and your arrogance that you speak the truth and not an interpretation of the truth is all too common, not special.
                        I guess you failed to notice that I not once claimed that I believe in universalism, or that it's the truth. I merely said early Christians believed it and there's plenty of scripture in the Bible to support it. Enough evidence in fact that I think it's worth exploring, especially considering the conundrum of a loving God choosing to eternally torture his own creation.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by WeberHome View Post
                          .
                          Rev 20:14 . .Then death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire.

                          Webster's-- in so many words --defines "death" as not only the state or the condition of something deceased, but also anything life-threatening, i.e. deadly, lethal, and/or fatal.

                          The removal of all hazards that have the potential to kill; assures that the future cosmos will be 100% safe and secure.
                          Interesting, but what do you mean by "hazards"? Do you mean like knives, guns, anvils? Or do you mean sin?

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Aimiel View Post
                            I believe that Death and Hell are not only an action (death) and a place (hell) but that they are also spirits. Otherwise: why should Death or Hell need to be cast into the Lake of Fire? How can you cast an action (death) into a Lake of Fire? Why put a place (hell) into another place; except to torment those two rulers of the darkness of this world who deserve their fate?

                            There is
                            1 spiritual death Mat_8:22
                            2 physical death Mat 8:22
                            3 there is alive yet dead Rev 20:12
                            4 death as a place Rev 20:13
                            5 death as a person Rev 6:8

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Freedm View Post
                              Tell me, how do you reconcile your doctrine with Genesis 3:19?

                              "For dust you are and to dust you shall return".

                              Let me guess. You're going to insert the words "your body" somewhere in there. Am I right? You know if you have to insert words, you're on the wrong track.
                              physical death

                              There is
                              1 spiritual death Mat_8:22
                              2 physical death Mat 8:22
                              3 there is alive yet dead Rev 20:12
                              4 death as a place Rev 20:13
                              5 death as a person Rev 6:8




                              here we have physical death, spiritual death & death as a place.

                              Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
                              Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
                              Luk 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Freedm View Post
                                Huh?

                                since you were not persuaded by Jesus resurrection , you won't hear me

                                Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers, so that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment. ...

                                Luk 16:31 And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead.

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