ECT Works of Law and Works of Grace, Is That Biblical?

[Clete]

Of course you just ignored the words of the Lord Jesus which I quoted at John 6:47 and John 5:24. Why is that? Why did you just ignore the verses which I quoted which demonstrate that the Jews who lived under the law were born again by the word of God and the word of God alone?



Do you not even realize that no one was saved by keeping the law?:

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).​

"I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain" (Gal.2:1).​

The Lord Jesus answered in the way that He did in order that the young man would realize his sinfulness and need of a Savior. He should have realized that if he really kept the law he would follow what the Lord said about it and give his money to those in need:

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" (Mt.22:37-40).​

Again, here are the words of the Savior Himself spoken to the Jews who lived under the law and of course you just ignored it:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

Of course you just ignored the following verse also:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).​

First of all, you ignored the verse which I quoted from the first chapter of the book of James where it is plain that the new birth is a result of faith and faith alone:

"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).​

Secondly, James makes it clear that he is writing about what a man may know about another man's faith:

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (Jms.2:18).​

Charles C. Baker and Cornelius Stam established the Milwaukee Bible Institute, and Baker understood that Abraham was not justified by "works" in the eyes of God, writing that "James speaks of Abraham being justified by works 'when he offered up his son Isaac', which happened 49 years after his justification by faith as mentioned by Paul (Genesis 15:6; Genesis 22). Paul makes it plain in Romans 4:1 and 2 that the justification by works of which James speaks, was not a justification before God, and James states that it was the fulfilling of the faith which he already had (James 2:23). Grace is the source of justification (Romans 3:24); Christ's blood is the ground (Romans 5:9); faith is the means (Romans 3:28); and works are the evidence (James 2:21). As the tree must have life before it can bear fruit; so Abraham received life when justified by faith alone, and 49 years later that faith bore the fruit, of which James speaks" [emphasis added] (Baker, HOW WAS ABRAHAM JUSTIFIED BY WORKS?).

Sir Robert Anderson writes, "Paul's Epistle (Romans) unfolds the mind and purposes of God, revealing His righteousness and wrath. The Epistle of James addresses men upon their own ground. The one deals with justification as between the sinner and God, the other as between man and man. In the one, therefore, the word is, 'To him that worketh not, but believeth'. In the other it is, 'What is the profit if a man say he hath faith, and have not works?' Not 'If a man have faith', but 'If a man say he hath faith' proving that, in the case supposed, the individual is not dealing with God, but arguing the matter with his brethren. God, who searches the heart, does not need to judge by works, which are but the outward manifestation of faith within; but man can judge only by appearances...He (Abraham) was justified by faith when judged by God, for God knows the heart. He was justified by works when judged by his fellow men, for man can only read the life " [emphasis added] (Anderson, The Gospel and Its Ministry, [Kregel Publications, 1978], pp.160-161).

With that in mind we can understand the following verse is saying that Abraham was justified before the Lord by his "faith" and he was justified before man by his "works":

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (Jms.2:24).​

I did not ignore anything but instead I addressed both. It is you who ignored the words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

We also know that those who believed enjoyed eternal security:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).​

You call yourself a Christian but from what I can see the words of the Lord Jesus Christ spoken to the Jews who lived under the law have no place in your heart. If these verses are not saying that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith alone then they must have another meaning.

What is your interpretation of the meaning of His words, Clete? Or are you just going to ignore them again like you did the last time?

As predicted.

Jerry is one of the longest standing members of my ignore list and posts like the one quoted above are the reason why.

Do you see [MENTION=16603]turbosixx[/MENTION]? This is the sort of convoluted mess one can get into with the bottom up/proof-texting method of biblical exegesis. When you start with a doctrine and force the text to agree, no doctrine can be falsified.

Jesus directly answered the question "How can I aquire eternal life?" by telling the one who asked to obey the ten commandments and James explicitly states that "a man is JUSTIFIED BY WORKS and not by faith only". You just cannot possibly get any more blatanly explicit than that and yet it doesn't move Jerry one single centimeter away from his pet doctrine. If anything it cements him further into his gross error.

Clete

 

[Cntrysner]

Both Abraham and Noah received it (Ro.4:1-4; Heb. 11:7) but according to your ideas that is not possible.



This is what the Savior Himself told those who lived under the law and there is not one word about obedience:

"He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

If it takes works of obedience to be saved then that salvation cannot be described as being of grace:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:4-4).​

Jerry, briefly explain to me, in your own words if you will, how you are saved by your faith and how your faith is not obedience.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

As predicted.

All you prove is that you refuse to believe the Lord Jesus if what He said contradicts your unbelief. That is why you did not even attempt to address the following words of His spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Here is another thing He said to the Jews who lived under the law that you can just ignore:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

According to your unbelief the Lord's words were insufficient to give spiritual life to the Jews who lived under the law because those people could not be saved apart from works. And that is why you run and hide from both John 6:47 and John 5:24 where the Lord Jesus told the Jews who lived under the law that faith alone would result in eternal life for those who believe.

We also see that the Apostle Paul said that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Of course you still do not understand that grace is unmerited favor and that if it is of grace then it cannot be of works. You still haven't believed the gospel which saves, the gospel of the grace of God since you don't even understand salvation on the principle of grace. That is why the following words of Paul describe you perfectly:

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (2 Cor.2:14).​

You refuse to address the Lord Jesus' words at John 5:24, John 6:47 and John 6:63 because you cannot understand them.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, briefly explain to me, in your own words if you will, how you are saved by your faith and how your faith is not obedience.

Faith and obedience are two different things. Get yourself a Greek-English Lexicon and you will see that the two words mean two different things.

 

[Clete]

Faith and obedience are two different things. Get yourself a Greek-English Lexicon and you will see that the two words mean two different things.

So then answer his question, Jerry.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So then answer his question, Jerry.

He asked why faith is not obedience. The two words mean entirely different things so common sense dictates that faith is not obedience.

Of course to those like you who cannot understand the simple words of the Lord Jesus you probably think that faith and obedience are the same thing. That explains why you continue to run and hide from the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

 

[Right Divider]

It's cherry picking season.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It's cherry picking season.

So you don't believe what the Lord Jesus said to the Jews who lived under the law in the following verses?:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

You think that you can make those words of His go away if you just say that they were cherry picked?

All I see from you is the fact that you just flat out refuse to believe these words which the Lord Jesus spoke to the Jews who lived under the law.

 

[Right Divider]

So you don't believe what the Lord Jesus said to the Jews who lived under the law in the following verses?:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

You think that you can make those words of His go away if you just say that they were cherry picked?

All I see from you is the fact that you just flat out refuse to believe these words which the Lord Jesus spoke to the Jews who lived under the law.

YES Jerry... you do cherry pick and ignore many other verses, as Clete has shown.

Mat 19:16-17 KJV And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? (17) And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.​

Why do you ignore that one? Why didn't Jesus just say "believe" as you claim.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

YES Jerry... you do cherry pick and ignore many other verses, as Clete has shown.

Mat 19:16-17 KJV And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? (17) And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.​

Why do you ignore that one? Why didn't Jesus just say "believe" as you claim.

I didn't ignore it. You just can't understand simple things. according to your ideas the Jews had to keep the law in order to be saved. But I quoted verses which prove that keeping the law saves no one:

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).​

"I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain" (Gal.2:1).​

If a Jew kept the law perfectly and didn't sin then he could obtain eternal life in that way. But since all have sinned then no Jew earned salvation by law keeping. Therefore, keeping the law did not contribute in any way to the salvation of the Jews who believed. They were born again by the gospel:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

That fact is supported by the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

You refuse to believe the plain words of the Lord Jesus!



"

 

[Right Divider]

I didn't ignore it. You just can't understand simple things. according to your ideas the Jews had to keep the law in order to be saved. But I quoted verses which prove that keeping the law saves no one:

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).​

"I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain" (Gal.2:1).​

If a Jew kept the law perfectly and didn't sin then he could obtain eternal life in that way. But since all have sinned then no Jew earned salvation by law keeping. Therefore, keeping the law did not contribute in any way to the salvation of the Jews who believed. They were born again by the gospel:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

That fact is supported by the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

You refuse to believe the plain words of the Lord Jesus!

Please find any one of my over 15,000 posts where I say that the Jews had to keep the law to be saved per eternal life.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Please find any one of my over 15,000 posts where I say that the Jews had to keep the law to be saved per eternal life.

Why did you quote the following passage and then accuse me of ignoring it?

Mat 19:16-17 KJV And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? (17) And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.​

Why do you ignore that one? Why didn't Jesus just say "believe" as you claim.​

 

[Right Divider]

Why did you quote the following passage and then accuse me of ignoring it?

Mat 19:16-17 KJV And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? (17) And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.​

Why do you ignore that one? Why didn't Jesus just say "believe" as you claim.​

From what I've seen of you, you are a dispensationalist without a change in dispensations.

The Bible says that the Jews were under the law and that the body of Christ is not.

What is the difference?

 

[Clete]

He asked why faith is not obedience. The two words mean entirely different things so common sense dictates that faith is not obedience.

SO THEN ANSWER HIS QUESTION, JERRY!!!

Why won't you answer his simple question?

His question is predicated on the fact that the two words don't mean the same thing so all you're doing is disputing with yourself.

I just love this! The guy on here who presents himself as "unlearned" has you pinning to the floor with one simple question and you can't even tell that it's happening! Either that, or you can tell and you're doing your best Slick Willie impersonation. :chuckle:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

From what I've seen of you, you are a dispensationalist without a change in dispensations.

The dispensations do not represent different ways that people are saved down through the ages. All of the saved from the beginning of history have been saved in only one way, and that is by grace through faith. Even the saved who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Here are three quotes from the pen of Paul where he speaks of the present dispensation of the grace of God:

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you" (Eph. 3:2).​

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).​

"...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor.9:17).​

The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace", a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20: 24).​

There can be no doubt whatsoever that the event which marks the beginning of the "dispensation of grace" is the preaching of the "gospel of grace." That happened when Paul began to preach that gospel to the Gentiles at Acts 13:46-48.

The Bible says that the Jews were under the law and that the body of Christ is not.

What is the difference?

The law was not given to Israel as a means of salvation:

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).​

The primary reason why the law (the Mosaic Covenant) was given to Israel is stated here:

"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation" (Ex.19:5-6).​

Paul states in no uncertain terms that the saved who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

If you think that " works"and "grace" are compatible then you haven't yet believed the gospel which saves, the gospel of the grace of God:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:4-5).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, briefly explain to me, in your own words if you will, how you are saved by your faith and how your faith is not obedience.

The Scriptures reveal that it is my "faith" or belief in the gospel which saved me:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Ro.1:16).​

I happen to believe what Paul wrote in this verse and this verse says nothing about obedience and the Greek word translated "believeth" does not mean "obedience." The Greek word translated "believeth" means "to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon).

The Greek word translated "faith" means "conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

That word does not mean "obedience."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

SO THEN ANSWER HIS QUESTION, JERRY!!!

I just did so it is your time to actually address the following words of the Lord Jesus which He spoke to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

If the Lord Jesus is not telling those who lived under the law that faith is all that was needed for them to be saved then His words must have a different meaning. What is your interpretation of the meaning of His words in these three verses?

How long are you going to run and hide from these three verses, Clete?

 

[Clete]

I just did so

:chuckle:

No, you didn't! All you did was make his argument for him! :rotfl:

...it is your time to actually address the following words of the Lord Jesus which He spoke to the Jews who lived under the law:

No, Jerry, you don't seem to get it.

You've lost 100% of all credibility with me and probably with 90+% of everyone else on TOL. That means I respond to you on my own terms. I couldn't care less about what you want from me or whether you even read my posts.

I've already flatly proven your doctrine false so why would I ever be stupid enough to further engage your idiotic proof-texting arguments as if doing so would have any more success in convincing you than did the proofs that were already presented?

How long are you going to run and hide from these three verses, Clete?

There are baiscally three reasons to ever engage in a doctrinal debate. The first and most important is to sharpen one's own mind, another is to teach others how to do the same. The first cannot be accomplished with you because room temperature butter doesn't sharpen iron. The second is ongoing or else I wouldn't even be reading your posts in the first place. The third reason is to make an attempt to convince the one you're debating, which you demonstrated for years in an impossibility. There is, therefore, nothing in it for me to engage you in any further debate. The only thing left for me is to make sure everyone sees you for the hypoctrite that you are when it comes to "running and hiding" from arguments that even self proclaimed "unlearned" people can pin you to the floor with.

Clete

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You've lost 100% of all credibility with me and probably with 90+% of everyone else on TOL. That means I respond to you on my own terms. I couldn't care less about what you want from me or whether you even read my posts.

You are a big talker and that is all you are--a big talker who can't even understand the simple words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Even though Paul states in no uncertain terms that those saved who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith you are unable to understand the meaning of those words:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Even though "grace" means unmerited favor you think that even though the Jews under law were saved by grace through faith they couldn't be saved apart from meriting themselves favor by doing works to be saved!

You don't understand what it means to be saved by grace through faith so you don't understand the gospel of the grace of God and therefore it is impossible that you actually believe the gospel which saves. Paul describes you perfectly here:

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor.2:14).​

I feel nothing but pity for you because you began your study of the Bible with the wrong crowd and as a result you are unable to even understand the following words of the Lord and Savior:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

 

[Right Divider]

The dispensations do not represent different ways that people are saved down through the ages. All of the saved from the beginning of history have been saved in only one way, and that is by grace through faith. Even the saved who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Here are three quotes from the pen of Paul where he speaks of the present dispensation of the grace of God:

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you" (Eph. 3:2).​

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).​

"...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor.9:17).​

The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace", a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20: 24).​

There can be no doubt whatsoever that the event which marks the beginning of the "dispensation of grace" is the preaching of the "gospel of grace." That happened when Paul began to preach that gospel to the Gentiles at Acts 13:46-48.

The law was not given to Israel as a means of salvation:

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).​

The primary reason why the law (the Mosaic Covenant) was given to Israel is stated here:

"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation" (Ex.19:5-6).​

Paul states in no uncertain terms that the saved who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

If you think that " works"and "grace" are compatible then you haven't yet believed the gospel which saves, the gospel of the grace of God:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:4-5).​

Thanks for not answering the question.