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Works of Law and Works of Grace, Is That Biblical?

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Clete View Post
    Why don't you answer questions when they are directly put to you and then expect others to respond to yours?

    If you post this question again without having first presented a post establishing your asinine claim that "the words believe, believer, and believing, are mistranslations (sic)" in both Romans 10:4 and John 6:47, then I, for one, will put you on ignore and never read another word you ever post.

    (You do, of course, have the option of recanting that idiotic claim and admitting that you were just being a troll.)
    Then you are putting Salvation on ignore also.

    No such thing as believing in what Christ has said and done to receive His Spirit.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Faither View Post
      Then you are putting Salvation on ignore also.

      No such thing as believing in what Christ has said and done to receive His Spirit.
      Are you saying you are the word, the anointed one, who is the way to salvation? I think you just did and that is blasphemy. In your case, it is just being stupid.
      So, what?

      believe it!

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Ktoyou View Post
        Are you saying you are the word, the anointed one, who is the way to salvation? I think you just did and that is blasphemy. In your case, it is just being stupid.
        Wow , the fastest misrepresentation I've ever got !

        Comment


        • #79
          Some of the comments here reminds me of shooting marbles...who's has the biggest bag at the end of the day is the winner..but when the morning comes they must risk their marbles to stay a winner.
          Last edited by Cntrysner; July 15, 2019, 06:24 PM. Reason: .

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
            Some of the comments here reminds me of shooting marbles...who's has the biggest bag at the end of the day is the winner..but when the morning comes they must risk their marbles to stay a winner.
            ... and some people lost their marbles a long time ago and now just say crazy things.
            All of my ancestors are human.
            Originally posted by Squeaky
            That explains why your an idiot.
            Originally posted by God's Truth
            Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
            Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
            (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

            1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
            (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

            Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
              ... and some people lost their marbles a long time ago and now just say crazy things.
              How old are you? Why did you feel defensive based on my comment?

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
                You say "just like"..how can it be "just like" when the difference is apparent regarding the law that they were bound to by contract.? Was the Mosaic law nothing at all and why was it removed?
                Here is why I said "just like":

                "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all"
                (Ro.4:16).

                How many times are you going to ignore this verse? Do you not know that if it takes "works" then it cannot be said to be of "grace."
                Last edited by Jerry Shugart; July 16, 2019, 07:57 PM.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Faither View Post
                  Then you are putting Salvation on ignore also.

                  No such thing as believing in what Christ has said and done to receive His Spirit.
                  Faither = Troll
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                  Comment


                  • #84
                    [MENTION=16603]turbosixx[/MENTION],

                    I wonder if, in addition to responding to what I've already said, you could answer a question for me. It might help move the discussion along...

                    What roll does the Apostle Paul play, in your view? What purpose does he serve?

                    Is he simply a thirteenth apostle, the first of hundreds or perhaps thousands of people who have held the office of apostle?
                    Is he the last of a total of thirteen apostles?
                    Is it that Mathias was illegitimate and Paul the real replacement for Judas as the twelfth of twelve apostles? (I've actually met people who believe this one, by the way.)

                    or...

                    what?



                    Clete

                    P.S. By the way, that is only ONE question. I asked it several ways so as to communicate the intent as clearly as possible.
                    sigpic
                    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
                      How old are you? Why did you feel defensive based on my comment?
                      Sometimes we joke here... lighten up a little...

                      P.S. Although I quoted you, the comment was not about you.
                      All of my ancestors are human.
                      Originally posted by Squeaky
                      That explains why your an idiot.
                      Originally posted by God's Truth
                      Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                      Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                      (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                      1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                      (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                      Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Clete View Post
                        I said that I'd address these passages directly but I've changed my mind.

                        I started to write something up but the further I went the more I got convinced that my effort was going to be counter productive. It would be worse than a waste of time!

                        What you've got to understand is that I've been doing this for a very very long time and I know for a fact that anything I say in direct response to your proof texting will only cement you further into your own doctrine because my doing so tacitly accepts your premise. I cannot covert you to a more correct paradigm by arguing from a premise that supports an errant paradigm.

                        All I will say is this:

                        The Colossians passage is not saying that your making it to heaven is conditional but that your doing so "above reproach" is. Remember that there will be those who's works will all be burned up but they themsleve will be saved "as though through fire". If you don't want to be one of those, you're going to have to continue in the faith.

                        The Romans passage isn't talking about individuals being saved at all. It's referring to the Body of Christ as a group and comparing it's potential fate to that of Israel. The point is that God does not have to continue the Body of Christ's program (i.e. the dispensation of Grace) indefinitely and that He is within His rights to end it if we as Christians end up going the way Israel did.

                        Now, I could spend a great deal of time establishing all of that but that's as far as I'm willing to go here and I probably shouldn't have even gone that far for even that much grants your premise, although I understand that you don't see how.

                        The bottom line is you cannot cherry pick passages to suit your doctrine. That isn't how the bible was written and that isn't how it was ever intended to be studied or understood. Two sentences cannot be made to undercut the whole rest of Paul's writtings and ministry. As I've said several times now, (without response from you, by the way) if your doctrine was correct, there'd have never been any need for Paul in the first place.

                        Clete
                        I understand your frustration. I think you're right in that a platform like this is not suitable to really get our understanding of the scriptures across. I do appreciate your time.

                        I knew you would have to have addressed these passages in the past in order for them to fit your doctrine. I'm just curious how you view them. I think your fooling yourself with the snippet of explanation you did provide but since you didn't want to go as far as you did I will be content to move on.

                        I've been thinking about our discussions of the law and wondering if that might be something we could/should focus on. You say I'm going back to the law but I say no. I am not under the law of Moses and Gentiles have never been under the law of Moses. It was intended for and delivered to the Jews. I'd be willing to bet my ancestors all the way back to Moses have never been under the law of Moses.

                        You posted these verses.
                        13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

                        What was your point in using these verses?
                        Wretched man that I am.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Clete View Post
                          [MENTION=16603]turbosixx[/MENTION],

                          I wonder if, in addition to responding to what I've already said, you could answer a question for me. It might help move the discussion along...

                          What roll does the Apostle Paul play, in your view? What purpose does he serve?

                          Is he simply a thirteenth apostle, the first of hundreds or perhaps thousands of people who have held the office of apostle?
                          Is he the last of a total of thirteen apostles?
                          Is it that Mathias was illegitimate and Paul the real replacement for Judas as the twelfth of twelve apostles? (I've actually met people who believe this one, by the way.)

                          or...

                          what?



                          Clete

                          P.S. By the way, that is only ONE question. I asked it several ways so as to communicate the intent as clearly as possible.
                          I believe Paul to be the last apostle. I believe we can see the requirements for an apostle as outlined in the choosing of Mathias. I do not believe Mathias to be illegitimate.

                          It's my OPINION that Paul was chosen later because of his age. At the stoning of Stephen he is a young man and his involvement was holding coats. Not the man we see later taking active part in put men and women into prison.

                          It is also my opinion God chose him for his zeal. He was doing his very best to please God even when unknowingly fighting against God. He said he worked harder than the others and I believe it's because he persecuted the church. What better person to take the word to the rest of the world.
                          Last edited by turbosixx; July 16, 2019, 04:58 PM.
                          Wretched man that I am.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by turbosixx View Post
                            I believe Paul to be the last apostle. I believe we can see the requirements for an apostle as outlined in the choosing of Mathias. I do not believe Mathias to be illegitimate.
                            Act 14:14 KJV Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

                            So Paul came after Barnabas?
                            All of my ancestors are human.
                            Originally posted by Squeaky
                            That explains why your an idiot.
                            Originally posted by God's Truth
                            Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                            Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                            (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                            1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                            (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                            Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
                              You say "just like"..how can it be "just like" when the difference is apparent regarding the law that they were bound to by contract.? Was the Mosaic law nothing at all and why was it removed?
                              Here is why I said "just like":

                              "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all"
                              (Ro.4:16).

                              How many times are you going to ignore this verse? Do you not know that if it takes "works" then it cannot be said to be of "grace."

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by turbosixx View Post
                                I knew you would have to have addressed these passages in the past in order for them to fit your doctrine. I'm just curious how you view them.
                                I knew that you would! i mean, I didn't simply expect that you would, I knew it! That's why I deleted 45 minutes worth of writing of a more detailed explanation.

                                You can't help but think that because you're a proof-texter. (Not a pejorative - just a descriptor). In you view what I said about that Colossians passage MUST sound like rationalization. I can't possibly sound to your ears like anything else. It's the whole rest of Paul's message and ministry that informs one otherwise. If you get that wrong and think that Paul isn't teaching a new gospel, then that single sentence in Colossians is turned into Paul's whole ministry and Paul himself is turned into just another apostle.

                                I've been thinking about our discussions of the law and wondering if that might be something we could/should focus on. You say I'm going back to the law but I say no. I am not under the law of Moses and Gentiles have never been under the law of Moses. It was intended for and delivered to the Jews. I'd be willing to bet my ancestors all the way back to Moses have never been under the law of Moses.

                                You posted these verses.
                                13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

                                What was your point in using these verses?
                                I don't recall what I said when I quoted them but whatever it was that I typed before quoting that verse was the point I was making. The verse is there to support it. However, Paul states clearly that the laws purpose is to convict of sin and sentence the offender to death.



                                Now, don't go trying to reset the entire discussion. There is tons of things I've said that I think deserves a response. Not the least of which had directly to do with this issue of the law.


                                Originally posted by turbosixx View Post
                                I believe Paul to be the last apostle. I believe we can see the requirements for an apostle as outlined in the choosing of Mathias. I do not believe Mathias to be illegitimate.
                                So just to be crystal clear, you believe there to be thirteen legitimate apostles.

                                It's my OPINION that Paul was chosen later because of his age. At the stoning of Stephen he is a young man and his involvement was holding coats. Not the man we see later taking active part in put men and women into prison.
                                Your opinion is in conflict with Paul's own writings.

                                His claim to being the "chief of sinners" was based on the fact that he "persecuted the church and destroyed it" (the words "tried to" are not found in the original language).

                                Of all the people who were present at Stephen's execution, the one person who was mentioned by Luke (Acts 8:1) was some young kid who was just providing valet services and I suppose you think it's coincidental that his name was Saul.

                                It is also my opinion God chose him for his zeal. He was doing his very best to please God even when unknowingly fighting against God. He said he worked harder than the others and I believe it's because he persecuted the church. What better person to take the word to the rest of the world.
                                He chose Paul from his mother's womb, T6.

                                But it doesn't matter! It just doesn't matter. You answered the question that I was asking so now I have a follow up question...

                                Why was the Apostle which Jesus loved (a.k.a. The Apostle John) under the impression that there were "twelve apostles of the Lamb"; How is it possible that he was so unaware that God had added a thirteenth apostle that it failed to make it into God's word? (Revelation 21:14)

                                Further, was the conversion of Paul an after thought? Jesus states explicitly that the Twelve Apostles would "sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

                                Why is there not going to be thirteen foundations of the New Jerusalem with the names of the thirteen Apostles? Why only twelve thrones for twelve apostle rather than thirteen?


                                Further still, the number twelve is always associated with governmental perfection in general and Israel specifically, not thirteen. Thirteen is associated with rebellion.
                                The consistent use of numbers as symbolism through scripture is one of the major evidences that the whole of scripture, while having many human author's, has only one true Author. For there to have been a thirteenth apostle would have thrown quite a large wrench into the works in regards to the structure and cohesiveness of the whole of scripture.


                                Notice how I keep coming back to that same theme - "The whole". "The whole" of Paul's ministry; "The whole" of scripture. It is this holistic, top down, big picture approach to scripture that is the key to understanding the bible and the New Testament in particular.


                                Clete
                                sigpic
                                "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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