Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What do you think Paul was referring to when he wrote of the "stewardship of the grace of God" (Eph.3:2)?
ECT Principles of Spiritual Growth
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What do you think Paul was referring to when he wrote of the "stewardship of the grace of God" (Eph.3:2)?
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward: 3.How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words).........Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power." Ephesians 3: 2-3,7
In Ephesians 3: 2 Paul is saying that God made him (Paul) a minister (Ephesians 3: 3) of the Gospel of grace, which implies also the Gospel of justification by faith.
The definition of the English word dispensation from https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/dispensation is:
"Origin: Late Middle English: from Latin dispensatio(n-), from the verb dispensare (see dispense)......The action of distributing or supplying something.
‘regulations controlling dispensation of medications..........Permission to be exempted from the laws or observances of the Church.
‘he received papal dispensation to hold a number of benefices’
count noun ‘the Pope granted Henry a dispensation to marry Elizabeth of York’"........... (in Christian theology) a divinely ordained system prevailing at a particular period of history. ‘the Mosaic dispensation’"
However, note that the Oxford Dictionary says in Christian theology a dispensation is a system prevailing at a particular period of history. It does not say that New Testament scripture defines a dispensation in this way.
When dispensationalism says that God made only Paul the minister of the Gospel of Grace and of justification by faith, then dispensationalism gets into problems with the New Testament. There was a point of disagreement between the Jerusalem ekklesia and Paul and his Crew in Acts 15 over circumcision of Gentiles. That disagreement was settled by allowing the Gentile Christians not to have to be circumcised, which agrees with the Gospel of justification by faith and not be race and obeying the law.
In II Peter 3: 15-17 Peter says "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17.Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."
In his Gospel John uses pisteuo (believe) many times rather than pistis (faith) but the two Greek words have much the same meaning.
https://biblehub.com/greek/4100.htm
Strong's Number 4100, πιστεύω, to believe, have faith in, trust in;"
https://biblehub.com/greek/4102.htm
"Strong's Number 4102, πίστις, pistis: faith, faithfulness
belief, trust, confidence;"
John 3: 16 says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Maybe to dispensationalists, in their zeal for dividing up meanings, believers, races, etc, and in their literalist "Hermeneutic," pisteuo has a different meaning than does pistis.
But that third chapter of John's Gospel has a very important New Testament doctrine, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" - John 3: 3. Remember that Christ is here talking to a Pharisee, Nicodemus. So, this New Testament doctrine that everyone, regardless of their genetics, must be born again by the Spirit. to enter the kingdom of God means that a Jewish person is not justified by his genetics under the New Covenant. This doctrine itself disagrees with the doctrines established by the Founders of dispensationalism, that the multitude of Old Covenant Israel remain a Chosen People.
But maybe for a dispensationalist the "kingdom of God" is in a different dispensation
In Ephesians 3: 2 Paul is saying that God made him (Paul) a minister (Ephesians 3: 3) of the Gospel of grace, which implies also the Gospel of justification by faith.
The definition of the English word dispensation from https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/dispensation is:
"Origin: Late Middle English: from Latin dispensatio(n-), from the verb dispensare (see dispense)......The action of distributing or supplying something.
‘regulations controlling dispensation of medications..........Permission to be exempted from the laws or observances of the Church.
‘he received papal dispensation to hold a number of benefices’
count noun ‘the Pope granted Henry a dispensation to marry Elizabeth of York’"........... (in Christian theology) a divinely ordained system prevailing at a particular period of history. ‘the Mosaic dispensation’"
However, note that the Oxford Dictionary says in Christian theology a dispensation is a system prevailing at a particular period of history. It does not say that New Testament scripture defines a dispensation in this way.
When dispensationalism says that God made only Paul the minister of the Gospel of Grace and of justification by faith, then dispensationalism gets into problems with the New Testament. There was a point of disagreement between the Jerusalem ekklesia and Paul and his Crew in Acts 15 over circumcision of Gentiles. That disagreement was settled by allowing the Gentile Christians not to have to be circumcised, which agrees with the Gospel of justification by faith and not be race and obeying the law.
In II Peter 3: 15-17 Peter says "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17.Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."
In his Gospel John uses pisteuo (believe) many times rather than pistis (faith) but the two Greek words have much the same meaning.
https://biblehub.com/greek/4100.htm
Strong's Number 4100, πιστεύω, to believe, have faith in, trust in;"
https://biblehub.com/greek/4102.htm
"Strong's Number 4102, πίστις, pistis: faith, faithfulness
belief, trust, confidence;"
John 3: 16 says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Maybe to dispensationalists, in their zeal for dividing up meanings, believers, races, etc, and in their literalist "Hermeneutic," pisteuo has a different meaning than does pistis.
But that third chapter of John's Gospel has a very important New Testament doctrine, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" - John 3: 3. Remember that Christ is here talking to a Pharisee, Nicodemus. So, this New Testament doctrine that everyone, regardless of their genetics, must be born again by the Spirit. to enter the kingdom of God means that a Jewish person is not justified by his genetics under the New Covenant. This doctrine itself disagrees with the doctrines established by the Founders of dispensationalism, that the multitude of Old Covenant Israel remain a Chosen People.
But maybe for a dispensationalist the "kingdom of God" is in a different dispensation
Last edited:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, I agree with that. So when do you say that stewardship began?
When dispensationalism says that God made only Paul the minister of the Gospel of Grace and of justification by faith, then dispensationalism gets into problems with the New Testament. There was a point of disagreement between the Jerusalem ekklesia and Paul and his Crew in Acts 15 over circumcision of Gentiles. That disagreement was settled by allowing the Gentile Christians not to have to be circumcised, which agrees with the Gospel of justification by faith and not be race and obeying the law.
In II Peter 3: 15-17 Peter says "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17.Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."
In his Gospel John uses pisteuo (believe) many times rather than pistis (faith) but the two Greek words have much the same meaning.
https://biblehub.com/greek/4100.htm
Strong's Number 4100, πιστεύω, to believe, have faith in, trust in;"
https://biblehub.com/greek/4102.htm
"Strong's Number 4102, πίστις, pistis: faith, faithfulness
belief, trust, confidence;"
John 3: 16 says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Maybe to dispensationalists, in their zeal for dividing up meanings, believers, races, etc, and in their literalist "Hermeneutic," pisteuo has a different meaning than does pistis.
In II Peter 3: 15-17 Peter says "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17.Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."
In his Gospel John uses pisteuo (believe) many times rather than pistis (faith) but the two Greek words have much the same meaning.
https://biblehub.com/greek/4100.htm
Strong's Number 4100, πιστεύω, to believe, have faith in, trust in;"
https://biblehub.com/greek/4102.htm
"Strong's Number 4102, πίστις, pistis: faith, faithfulness
belief, trust, confidence;"
John 3: 16 says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Maybe to dispensationalists, in their zeal for dividing up meanings, believers, races, etc, and in their literalist "Hermeneutic," pisteuo has a different meaning than does pistis.
When dispensationalism says that God made only Paul the minister of the Gospel of Grace and of justification by faith, then dispensationalism gets into problems with the New Testament. There was a point of disagreement between the Jerusalem ekklesia and Paul and his Crew in Acts 15 over circumcision of Gentiles. That disagreement was settled by allowing the Gentile Christians not to have to be circumcised, which agrees with the Gospel of justification by faith and not be race and obeying the law.
In II Peter 3: 15-17 Peter says "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17.Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."
In his Gospel John uses pisteuo (believe) many times rather than pistis (faith) but the two Greek words have much the same meaning.
https://biblehub.com/greek/4100.htm
Strong's Number 4100, πιστεύω, to believe, have faith in, trust in;"
https://biblehub.com/greek/4102.htm
"Strong's Number 4102, πίστις, pistis: faith, faithfulness
belief, trust, confidence;"
John 3: 16 says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Maybe to dispensationalists, in their zeal for dividing up meanings, believers, races, etc, and in their literalist "Hermeneutic," pisteuo has a different meaning than does pistis.
In II Peter 3: 15-17 Peter says "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17.Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."
In his Gospel John uses pisteuo (believe) many times rather than pistis (faith) but the two Greek words have much the same meaning.
https://biblehub.com/greek/4100.htm
Strong's Number 4100, πιστεύω, to believe, have faith in, trust in;"
https://biblehub.com/greek/4102.htm
"Strong's Number 4102, πίστις, pistis: faith, faithfulness
belief, trust, confidence;"
John 3: 16 says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Maybe to dispensationalists, in their zeal for dividing up meanings, believers, races, etc, and in their literalist "Hermeneutic," pisteuo has a different meaning than does pistis.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Who says that God made only Paul a minister of the gospel of grace?
I say he was the first but he was not the only one.
This seems to convey a misunderstanding of dispensational teaching.
There are, of course, those within dispensationism who would disagree, depending on when they think the current dispensation began but, speaking from my own theological perspective, nothing in Revelation, chapter 12 or otherwise, is talking about the Body of Christ. The book is about Israel from beginning to end.
So where's the problem with the New Testament that dispensationlism has?
Why do you make a claim and then present an argument that does nothing to establish that claim?
What have you either said or quoted that any dispensationalist would disagree with? Are you suggesting that dispensationalists teach that Jews didn't have to come to God in faith in order to be saved? If so, you are horribly mistaken. But what else could you mean by what you've posted here?
Clete
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
My understanding is that those in the Body of Christ will partake in the "reign" mentioned in the book of Revelation:
"And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth" (Rev.5:10).
From the time when living saints will meet the Lord Jesus in the air those in the Body of Christ will forever be with the Lord Jesus (1 Thess.4:17). So when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth to reign from the throne of David all those in the Body of Christ will be with Him and will reign with Him (Rev.3:21).
It will be at that time when those in the Body will judge the world (1 Cor.6:2).
Aimiel
Well-known member
Of course not; however: I don't believe that He thought for one minute that The One Who made this world believed that twelve dudes could take The Gospel to every corner of the world and get it into the hands of every single person. I believe that when He said, "Go ye into all the world and preach The Gospel to every creature. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead and cast out demons," that He was speaking to every single believer. I believe He was speaking to you and me. :thumb:
glorydaz
Well-known member
Except our Lord was speaking of the Kingdom Gospel...not the Gospel of Grace.
Therefore, the "heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons" was not speaking to you and me.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Sorry, I don't believe that. I believe Scriptures over men, every time.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Then you should be seeing healers and the dead being raised and demons being cast out. Where are those today?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What evidence can you give that the Twelve preached the gospel of the kingdom to every corner of the world?
Aimiel
Well-known member
You won't see any such thing, except you believe that God can do such.
Aimiel
Well-known member
None. That was my point. We (Christians) are to go into all the world...
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Not true. The answer is in Scripture if you'd care to discuss it....rather than accuse me of not seeing.
glorydaz
Well-known member
They didn't. There was a change of plan when the persecution began. God turned to the Gentiles.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Yet, you don't drink poison or pick up deadly snakes, do you?
Things changed when Stephen was stoned. Israel had been given enough time, and the Apostles recognized that.
Now the Gospel of Grace (Paul's Gospel) is going out to the world, and that doesn't give us power to drink deadly drinks or pick up deadly snakes, or cast out demons, or raise the dead.