turbosixx
New member
I agree.
ECT If MAD is False Why Did Paul Make the Distinction in Romans 4:16?
- Thread starter Lighthouse
- Start date
I agree.
So what does that mean for the issue in question?
Interplanner
Well-known member
No, Paul meant that some believers come from a background under the law, the others simply have the faith of Abraham, but it is clearly the faith that makes either a believer and that group is one.
2P2P is always trying find ways to have two programs running on two bases. It is fraud.
A Zionist in our time period is one who believes Israel deserves its land in former Judea and Palestine. If you say Christian Zionist, it does not mean you are a Christian who also believes that. It means you think the reason they are now in that land is prophetic fulfillment, and this is totally foreign to the NT. The NT does not have that interest; it doesn't have that mission. What matters to the NT believer is the spreading of the mission's Gospel that God was in Christ resolving the debt of man's sins. It is trans-cultural and trans-ethnic.
I think it is great for Israel to be there because I want as few shari'a states as possible. But it is highly secular and socialist and has nothing to do with 'Bible prophecy.' Nor needs to. Nor is there a future for that.
Translation: :blabla:
turbosixx
New member
That's my point. Abraham wasn't under the law or circumcision when God declared him righteous, just like the Gentiles. The other group to enter the body are the Jews who were under the law and circumcision. Those two groups cover every person in the world who will enter the body.
The other tread was closed before I could reply, so here's my reply. I'm not sure what is the proper etiquette.
If I told you what I thought he meant, you wouldn’t agree with me. I’d rather you look at the context and come to your own conclusion. That’s what really matters, trying to understand what God is telling us instead of searching the scriptures to support what we already believe.
I’ve asked several madist to explain what Paul meant by this verse based on the context and no one has. It leads me to believe that they really aren’t concerned with truth but being right. Would they accept that from me?
Can we use this verse out of context?
Lk. 14:26 "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.This is an obvious example, but what about the ones that aren’t so obvious. Is it wise to take them out of context?
Maybe I don’t’ understand how the one baptism works. Could you tell me in your understanding, how the one baptism works?
Interplanner
Well-known member
Some believers were raised under the Law: Jews in Judaism. But others in the Christian community simply have the faith that Abraham had without that background. In either case it is their faith that counts them in, that matters, and that makes them one. That is how the NT sounds. It NEVER sounds like the complications, contortions and exceptions of MAD.
You need to be willing and daring enough, like I was once, to ask if everything you've been taught is actually there.
James brings up Abraham as under the covenant of circumcision and says his audience is in that same boat. That's a big contrast from what Paul says about his audience and their relation to Abraham. Israel is not the Body.
I know full well from the context what he meant. The interesting thing here is that you don't have an answer. Which I assume means you don't know what he meant and are just pigheaded and refuse to concede that MAD might be correct on this.
Poppycock!
If we're concerned with being right then we're concerned with the truth; logically.
I'm still waiting for a counter to my position on this...View attachment 24964
How am I taking the verse out of context?
Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
-Romans 6:4
In the NT, after the first four books, are the 12 tribes of the law or not?
I did. Almost a decade ago; and now I'm A9D.
Nope, they were scattered. When the Holy Spirit inspired James to write to the twelve tribes most of Israel was long gone from Judea.
James, like Paul, was a bondservant of Jesus Christ. Both men were Christians according to the Holy Spirit.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Oh, the irony...
turbosixx
New member
Yes, the body is not physical Israel but what about spiritual Israel?
Do you agree the body is made up of former Jews and Gentiles?
If not spiritual Israel, could you explain what you believe Paul means by this?
Phil. 3:3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh
Or what he means by the Gentiles being “wild” branches grafted in and among them, the "natural" branches of the cultivated olive tree. Who is “them”?
Rom. 11:16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
And here:
Gal. 3:29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
I do have an answer and zero madist have explained it based on context, including yourself.
After Christ's death no one was under the law. God gave the Jews forty years to convert. Some did, some didn't.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
At the time Paul wrote those words those who remained under the Law (see Acts 21:20) were saved by grace through faith and if it is of grace then it is not of works.
In other words, the Jews who lived under the lawwere not saved by faith plus works but instead by faith alone. And the Lord Jesus' following words spoken to the Jews who lived under the law proves that they were savedby faith alone:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
There are many on this forum who are MAD but yet teach that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works.
musterion
Well-known member
You may be correct that some MADs say that but all I've ever noticed said is only that they did keep the Law, not that they were being (partly) saved by keeping it.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I have not hears even one MAD on this thread (with the exception of me) who says that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith alone.
Just because they were scattered doesn't mean they weren't of the Law.
Irrelevant to the issue at hand. Galatians 2:9 is the issue at hand.
Can you show me the phrase "spiritual Israel" anywhere in the Body?
No. In the Body there is neither.
In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
-Colossians 2:11-12
Being grafted into Christ does not equate to being grafted into Israel.
See above.
Put up or shut up.
How do you know no one was under the Law after Christ's death? And if you're right then explain why they were still following the Law, and why it took a vision from God to explain to Peter that the Gentiles didn't have to in order to enter in now.
turbosixx
New member
Since you're not putting up just like all the other madist, I'll gladly shut up.
I already did. You just didn't like the answer because it doesn't fit your pet doctrine.
turbosixx
New member
You'll have to refresh my memory. You explained what Paul meant in vs17 based on the context?
What Paul meant is very plain in the text. There is no deeper meaning than the face value meaning. Baptism was not what he was sent to do; he was sent to preach the gospel. But based on the context clues: i.e. the fact that he baptized people, and so did some of his converts who were also preaching the gospel he preached, we also know that baptism was not forbidden in his message [if it were he wouldn't have done it and he would have let it be known that it was forbidden].
So, we can safely assume that baptism is not salvific but is yet a perfectly acceptable act of proclamation of one's acceptance of Christ. And that no one should be forbidden from baptizing or being baptized.
Furthermore, if baptism were something the Lord wanted Paul to do Paul would not have been thankful that he only baptized those few.
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Paul was only saying so in regard to the subject of one saying they are of Paul or of Apollos etc.
When Paul found disciples who had not received the Holy Spirit, then he preached to them the same as did Peter in order that they could receive the Holy Spirit, and Paul baptized them in water before they did receive--
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
The same as at the beginning of the church-
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
As also did occur to the Samarian believers--
Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
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