ECT Replacement (Reformed) Theology...is wrong.

[Right Divider]

Do you believe that God has abandoned Israel?

Not in the long run, but Genesis 12 is certainly not in effect in this dispensation.

 

[Danoh]

Do you believe that God has abandoned Israel?

What I believe about that is that His plan and purpose as to Israel resumes after Romans 11:25.

Til then, He is not keeping Covenant with them. They are "not my people."

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

As in their past, He has turned from them for their disobedience, but has delayed His wrath unto them prior to His mercy, turned His attention to some other purpose He had determined He would carry out during said delay of His wrath upon them, prior to His mercy upon them.

Disobedience - turning from them - delaying of His wrath to do something else first - turn back to them - pour out His wrath upon them - followed by His mercy toward them.

Notice all that...

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

When He could have poured out His wrath; He did not. Why?

9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Just as had been the case in Hosea's day ALSO - instead of pouring out His wrath; He turned from Israel to do some thing else first (back then that something else first had been with Judah, see Hosea 1&2); but promised He would turn back to Israel once more, after His wrath.

9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Don't believe it?

9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Til then...

9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Paul then goes into their Covenant of forgiveness - as - a - nation - presently on hold...as God does what He is even now still presently doing - among individuals - of - all - nations - as - individuals - without - national - distinction....

11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

That, brother is..."as it is written."

He has "abandoned" them - in a sense - as His one nation under God - as "not my people" - but only until some point after the fulness of what He is doing among all nations - as Gentiles - including - Israelites - as Uncircumcision spiritually - only until some point after the fulness of this...be come in.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Romans 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

He has "abandoned" them - in a sense - as His one nation under God - as "not my people" - but only until some point after the fulness of what He is doing among all nations - as Gentiles - including - Israelites - as Uncircumcision spiritually - only until some point after the fulness of this...be come in.

.

Yes I agree.

However the mother of them is the elect church.

LA

 

[Interplanner]

What I believe about that is that His plan and purpose as to Israel resumes after Romans 11:25.

Til then, He is not keeping Covenant with them. They are "not my people."

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

As in their past, He has turned from them for their disobedience, but has delayed His wrath unto them prior to His mercy, turned His attention to some other purpose He had determined He would carry out during said delay of His wrath upon them, prior to His mercy upon them.

Disobedience - turning from them - delaying of His wrath to do something else first - turn back to them - pour out His wrath upon them - followed by His mercy toward them.

Notice all that...

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

When He could have poured out His wrath; He did not. Why?

9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Just as had been the case in Hosea's day ALSO - instead of pouring out His wrath; He turned from Israel to do some thing else first (back then that something else first had been with Judah, see Hosea 1&2); but promised He would turn back to Israel once more, after His wrath.

9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Don't believe it?

9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Til then...

9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Paul then goes into their Covenant of forgiveness - as - a - nation - presently on hold...as God does what He is even now still presently doing - among individuals - of - all - nations - as - individuals - without - national - distinction....

11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

That, brother is..."as it is written."

He has "abandoned" them - in a sense - as His one nation under God - as "not my people" - but only until some point after the fulness of what He is doing among all nations - as Gentiles - including - Israelites - as Uncircumcision spiritually - only until some point after the fulness of this...be come in.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Romans 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

The terms of the severity of the ending of the relationship are beyond "resuming." In Acts 3, the term 'extirpated' is a superlative.

There is no need for any Judaic institution to resume.

There are no Judaic features to the 2nd coming.

To say that the hardening lasts til all the nations' believers comes in does not imply or guarantee or hint of a resumed theocratic Israel (is there any other kind?)

The OT institution has too much weight to people like Danoh that is not given it by the NT.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Read and learn oly:

http://www.graceandpeace.org/israel-the-apple-of-gods-eye/

LA can't BR. She's too busy making "Death Predictions."

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Read the article he posted a link to, it is exactly what he means.

LA

Avoid that LA Freeway, it's congested with false doctrine and total confusion.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Evil Twin - sounds like GM's books based brown nose parroting impersonation of being a Mad :chuckle:

I've NEVER read a single book about Dispensationalism. Except for the Bible.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

LA can't BR. She's too busy making "Death Predictions."

What a hypocrite you are.

You go crying to the moderator because I bought up the fact that Knight said you are a moron and now you keep repeating what you know very well I was warned not to say.

Pro 11:1 A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.

LA

 

[Danoh]

What a hypocrite you are.

You go crying to the moderator because I bought up the fact that Knight said you are a moron and now you keep repeating what you know very well I was warned not to say.

Pro 11:1 A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.

LA

So much for his so called 50 plus years in a so called Mid-Acts assembly.

Apparantly, either they do not teach one how to go from "ye are yet carnal...unto spiritual" or he was too busy sitting there thinking "yeah, not me - so and so is like that..."

The man is one petty, one sided individual.

So petty, so one sided, that pointing it out only proves the case.

The fraud that is 50 plus years in a graceless...grace.

Reminds me of Barney on the Andy Griffith Show.

Ever spitting out his talking down at one and all, ever in need of Andy's over looking his bigotry, ever in need of being carefully talked to, lest his feelings be hurt, only to take it wrong anyway...:chuckle:

The man is...a grace fraud.

Plain...and simple.

We're dealing with a serious joke of an individual here.

"Wherefore rebuke them before all; that they may be sound in the faith..."

Or as he interprets that - that they may spit more vile...because...o...their one-sided feelings were hurt.

:rotfl:

 

[Interplanner]

I've NEVER read a single book about Dispensationalism. Except for the Bible.

Reading the bible, not ryrie, Pentecost, Chafer, Lindsay, Rosenborg, Lahaye, was how I realized 2P2P is not there.

 

[patrick jane]

So much for his so called 50 plus years in a so called Mid-Acts assembly.

Apparantly, either they do not teach one how to go from "ye are yet carnal...unto spiritual" or he was too busy sitting there thinking "yeah, not me - so and so is like that..."

The man is one petty, one sided individual.

So petty, so one sided, that pointing it out only proves the case.

The fraud that is 50 plus years in a graceless...grace.

Reminds me of Barney on the Andy Griffith Show.

Ever spitting out his talking down at one and all, ever in need of Andy's over looking his bigotry, ever in need of being carefully talked to, lest his feelings be hurt, only to take it wrong anyway...:chuckle:

The man is...a grace fraud.

Plain...and simple.

We're dealing with a serious joke of an individual here.

"Wherefore rebuke them before all; that they may be sound in the faith..."

Or as he interprets that - that they may spit more vile...because...o...their one-sided feelings were hurt.

:rotfl:

This post proves how petty you are -

 

[Danoh]

Reading the bible, not ryrie, Pentecost, Chafer, Lindsay, Rosenborg, Lahaye, was how I realized 2P2P is not there.

Lol - all you ever post is found in a hodge podge of various authors you just as often mention.

 

[Danoh]

This post proves how petty you are -

Nope.

I speak my mind as to one and all, just as I side with one and all where their "witness is true" on some point.

And you know this.

But if you're feeling left out; I can easily remedy that - you know this as well :chuckle:

 

[Interplanner]

I don't mean to speak for BR, but I don't think that he means it the way that you are taking it.

I believe that he is talking about the fact that God will not forever abandon them per Romans 11.

God does not abandone. He responds to all who respond to Christ. If you mean "will" in the unqualified futurist sense, it's not there. The passage since the middle of 10 was to prod them into the work of the mission.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

From a biblical theological perspective it is important to stress that Jesus is the Israel of God who was made under the law, fulfilled the stipulations of Israel's covenant, and is declared to be the Son of God by His resurrection from the dead. The true Israel is not the church in and of itself, but those who are united to Christ by faith, that is, are "in Christ." Those who are united to Christ by faith are the church, members of Christ, the Israel of God, whether they be Jew or Gentile.

The unity of both the OT and NT covenant is clearly taught in Scripture…
• Its promise was the same (Ex 19:4-6 cf 1 Pet 2:5,9; Jer 31:33 cf 2 Cor 6:16)
• Its condition was the same – faith (Gen 15:6 cf Rom 4:3)
• The object of this faith was the same – Christ (John 8:56; Acts 2:25-32; Heb 4:2)
This is why Christians are made partakers of the blessing of Abraham (Gal 3:8,9,14)

As soon as someone uses "Replacement Theology" when discussing covenantalism, it is a signal they don't know what they are talking about.

Covenantalists reject "replacement theology", and I don't think anyone can find a single covenantalist that would accept the term. Covenantalists follow grafted theology. One vine: Christ, one, Israel, the people of God. From Ephesians 2:15, Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Persons tossing out the "replacement theology" term say so because they have already decided to keep the two distinct. Thus, you will read them saying, "Covenantalists have taken over the promises made to Israel". Error! They should be saying "Covenantalists have joined the true Israel, Christ, along with Old Testament believers, who were "of Israel"." (Romans 9:6).

Contrary to Paul's clear teachings, the persons who toss out "replacement theology" do not believe Christ is the goal of the law (Romans 10:4), that in Him it is finished. These same persons think the goals of the Old Testament have not been accomplished, that the Temple is returning, and that God has two intentions for different "peoples". Sigh.

The Biblical historical account of God's plan of redemption is divided into two major covenants, the Covenant of Works and the Covenant of Grace, describing all of God’s sovereign dealings with mankind.

We are saved because Christ fulfilled the Covenant of Works by His perfect obedience. Thus, the Reformed claim our salvation is a covenant salvation.
1. The mercies of our covenant salvation are our regeneration, justification, adoption, and sanctification.
2. Election was God’s choice of the members of God’s final, purified, covenant community—the invisible church.
3. The Supper and Baptism are covenant sacraments.
4. God’s Law is covenant law, which we keep in gratitude and loyalty, as a response to God’s grace.

There is also the idea of the eternal covenant between the three persons in the divine being itself, called the Covenant of Redemption. You may also see this as called the pactum salutis, the intra-trinitarian pact of salvation, or counsel of peace.

Despite a lack of universal acceptance within Reformed theology, the Covenant of Redemption, does offer some perceived benefits:

(1) “The pact of salvation makes known to us the relationships and life of the three persons in the Divine Being as a covenantal life, a life of consummate self-consciousness and freedom” (Bavinck).
(2) “[F]orms the link between the eternal work of God toward salvation and what he does to that end in time” (Bavinck).

The Covenant of Works

1. God’s arrangement between Himself and Adam before Adam’s fall into sin.
2. God promised to bless Adam if he obeyed God’s commands (Genesis 1:28-30).
3. Adam’s obedience (works) was required (see also Hosea 6:7).
4. Adam failed this test from God, and, in His mercy, God established a second covenant.

The Covenant of Grace

1. The Covenant of Grace describes God’s relationship with His people throughout the rest of Scripture.
2. It can be said that the covenant was made with Christ, the last Adam, the representative of all of redeemed mankind.
3. The Covenant of Grace begins in our history with the promises made after the Fall of mankind, Genesis 3:15.

The unfolding of the one eternal Covenant of Grace can also be seen in its major administrations:

1. Covenant of Nature made with Noah (Genesis 6:18; 9:9-17).
2. Abrahamic Covenant made with Abraham (Genesis 15, 17).
3. Covenant of Law made with Israel via Moses (Exodus 19-24).
4. Davidic Royal Covenant made with David (2 Samuel 7; Psalm 89, 132).
5. New Covenant established by Christ (Jeremiah 31; Luke 22:20; 1 Corinthians 11:25; Hebrews 8:8-13).

• The New Covenant arrives in three stages: Christ’s first comings, the unfolding history before Christ’s Second Coming, and consummation of Christ’s kingdom.

New Covenant administration represents the ultimate expression of God’s single eternal Covenant of Grace with sinners (Hebrews 13:20). That said, per Bavinck, [t]he road was the same on which believers in the Old and the New Testaments walked, but the light in which they walked was different. So in a sense we can say that those experiencing the New Covenant have better promises (Hebrews 8:6), a better sacrifice (Hebrews 9:23), a better High Priest with a better sanctuary (Hebrews 7:26-8:13), and a better hope than what was found in the former explicit OT expressions of the Covenant of Grace.

Useful links for digging deeper:

A chart:
http://www.faithbibleonline.net/MiscDoctrine/DispCov.htm

Packer on Covenantalism:
http://gospelpedlar.com/articles/Bible/cov_theo.html

AMR

^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^

THE END.

 

[Interplanner]

God does not abandone. He responds to all who respond to Christ. If you mean "will" in the unqualified futurist sense, it's not there. The passage since the middle of 10 was to prod them into the work of the mission.

further, this forces 'abandone' to mean give them a land promise after the ultimate rejection of the crucifixion. This, in a letter that includes the end of Rom 8, makes no sense, or chops the book in to Jews parts vs Gentiles parts, which is nonsense. Except for the need to provoke the Jews to be in the Gospel mission, as in the middle of ch 11.