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  • #31
    Originally posted by chrysostom View Post
    do you know why they named it peter and not paul?
    Of course.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by jamie View Post
      Of course.
      tell us
      a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

      Comment


      • #33
        TRUE CHURCH OF JESUS IS HIDDEN

        Matt 16:18
        18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
        Mark 14:27
        27 Then Jesus said to them, "All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written: 'I will strike the Shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.'
        Heb 3:6
        6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
        Heb 3:7-9
        7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you will hear His voice,
        8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness,
        9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years.
        Rev 12:1-17
        1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.
        2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
        3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.
        4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.
        5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.
        6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
        7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
        8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
        9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
        10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
        11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
        12 "Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."
        13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.
        14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
        15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.
        16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
        17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
        John 14:18-21
        18 "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
        19 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.
        20 "At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
        21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
        Heb 13:5-6
        5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."
        6 So we may boldly say: "The Lord is my helper; I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
        2 Cor 6:17-18
        17 Therefore "Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, and I will receive you."
        18 "I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."
        Rom 8:35-39
        35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
        36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
        37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
        38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
        39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
        2 Cor 5:7-9
        7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
        8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
        9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.
        Heb 3:1-4
        1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,
        2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house.
        3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house.
        4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.


        The true born again church is hidden. There are members in every denomination that hear the Holy Spirit quoting verses to them. God put them there. To trade talents with the members of that denomination. They are very gentle, and willing to yield to the members rather than argue. But they themselves will not go against the verses the Holy Spirit gives them. They question things that are said in the church because of the verses the Holy Spirit gives them. They are demonstrating the Holy Spirit. So everyone is without excuse on Judgment day. They would be the apostles in that church.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by jamie View Post
          I don't look up here and here nor there and there. My experience with you is that here and here refers to someone else's words, not your words.
          I cite information with which I happen to agree completely. Your transparent excuse for avoiding relevant information, however, is noted.

          This indicates to me that you only believe what men tell you to believe and not what the NT says.
          No more than you "only believe what your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect tells you to believe, and not the New Testament." Try again?



          Gaudium de veritate,

          Cruciform
          +T+
          "The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by jamie View Post
            Paul never mentions a "catholic" church or a visit with his friend Peter.
            Just another entirely irrelevant argument from silence. Try again.

            (Incidentally, the writings of the early Christian Church demonstrate that Christ's one historic Church was already commonly being referred to as "the Catholic Church" by the end of the 1st century A.D.)

            I believe I know why.
            Regarding this point, you imagine and speculate much. You actually know nothing.



            Gaudium de veritate,

            Cruciform
            +T+
            Last edited by Cruciform; April 19th, 2015, 03:41 PM.
            "The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Squeaky View Post
              TRUE CHURCH OF JESUS IS HIDDEN

              Matt 16:18
              18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
              Mark 14:27
              27 Then Jesus said to them, "All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written: 'I will strike the Shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.'
              Heb 3:6
              6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
              Heb 3:7-9
              7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you will hear His voice,
              8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness,
              9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years.
              Rev 12:1-17
              1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.
              2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
              3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.
              4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.
              5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.
              6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
              7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
              8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
              9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
              10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
              11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
              12 "Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."
              13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.
              14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
              15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.
              16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
              17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
              John 14:18-21
              18 "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
              19 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.
              20 "At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
              21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
              Heb 13:5-6
              5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."
              6 So we may boldly say: "The Lord is my helper; I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
              2 Cor 6:17-18
              17 Therefore "Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, and I will receive you."
              18 "I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."
              Rom 8:35-39
              35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
              36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
              37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
              38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
              39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
              2 Cor 5:7-9
              7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
              8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
              9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.
              Heb 3:1-4
              1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,
              2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house.
              3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house.
              4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.


              The true born again church is hidden. There are members in every denomination that hear the Holy Spirit quoting verses to them. God put them there. To trade talents with the members of that denomination. They are very gentle, and willing to yield to the members rather than argue. But they themselves will not go against the verses the Holy Spirit gives them. They question things that are said in the church because of the verses the Holy Spirit gives them. They are demonstrating the Holy Spirit. So everyone is without excuse on Judgment day. They would be the apostles in that church.
              Something I learned a long time ago. Catholics use the Apocrypha and other Catholic doctrine. They dabble in Scripture but adhere to other writings. A large majority that contradicts the 66 Holy Books we use. Which is the reformers removed them. You offered Gods words. That's it. Your "job" is complete. They either accept or reject the Holy words.

              I do not want Catholics to be Protestant nor believe as I do. I want them to belong intimately to Jesus . Jesus is the church and we are members of Jesus Holy and universal church-body.


              The only "Catholic" I am aware of who knows Jesus and Jesus only as Redeemer-Savior and Lord is John Micheal Talbot. I do not know if he:
              Pray's to Mary. I do not believe so. He does give her due honor, which is acceptable.
              Believes in Purgatory.?
              Or views the Pope as the sole substitute of Jesus.
              Talbot does use catholic imagery in his videos. The Golden Chalice and equates the bread as to salvation.

              He admits prior to singing this song that Jesus is more important than Mary has Reedemer... ' Holy is His Name ".

              I love God through Talbot and have listened to his music for over 25 years.


              John Michael Talbot - Holy is His Name at 2:05 He acknowledges Jesus as Savior and above Mary. It's a YouTube video . I can PM you with the link.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by rougueone View Post
                Something I learned a long time ago. Catholics use the Apocrypha...
                You learned wrong. There are seven books that Protestants removed from the Old Testament canon in the 16th century which Catholics have considered canonical and authoritative for the past 2,000 years. These documents are known as the Deuterocanonical books, not Apocrypha.

                They dabble in Scripture but adhere to other writings.
                It's obvious that you're relying upon anti-Catholic Protestant sources for your "information" here. Try again?

                A large majority that contradicts the 66 Holy Books we use.
                For example...?

                Which is the reformers removed them.
                Luther and company removed them because these books failed to support their (the "reformers'") novel and heterodox doctrinal opinions, not because the Deuterocanonicals somehow contradict the rest of Scripture. It should be noted that the "Bible" used by Jesus, the apostles, and the early Church---that is, the Septuagint---contained all seven of the OT books that the "reformers" later presumed to remove.

                You offered Gods words. That's it. Your "job" is complete. They either accept or reject the Holy words.
                "God's words," however, are in no way restricted to the Bible alone, as you apparently (and wrongly) assume. For example, see this.

                The only "Catholic" I am aware of who knows Jesus and Jesus only as Redeemer-Savior and Lord is John Micheal Talbot.
                How do you know he "knows Jesus and Jesus only," and by what criteria would you decide?

                I do not know if he: Pray's to Mary. I do not believe so. He does give her due honor, which is acceptable. Believes in Purgatory.? Or views the Pope as the sole substitute of Jesus. Talbot does use Catholic imagery in his videos. The Golden Chalice and equates the bread as to salvation.
                John Michael Talbot is a faithful Catholic, and so believes everything taught by Christ's one historic Catholic Church.

                He admits prior to singing this song that Jesus is more important than Mary has Reedemer... ' Holy is His Name ".
                All informed Catholics would agree.

                John Michael Talbot - Holy is His Name at 2:05 He acknowledges Jesus as Savior and above Mary. It's a YouTube video . I can PM you with the link.
                Thanks, but I'm familiar with his music. I listened to it for decades as a Protestant, and have continued to now for thirteen years as a Catholic.



                Gaudium de veritate,

                Cruiform
                +T+
                "The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Cruciform View Post
                  You learned wrong. There are seven books that Protestants removed from the Old Testament canon in the 16th century which Catholics have considered canonical and authoritative for the past 2,000 years. These documents are known as the Deuterocanonical books, not Apocrypha.


                  It's obvious that you're relying upon anti-Catholic Protestant sources for your "information" here. Try again?


                  For example...?


                  Luther and company removed them because these books failed to support their (the "reformers'") novel and heterodox doctrinal opinions, not because the Deuterocanonicals somehow contradict the rest of Scripture. It should be noted that the "Bible" used by Jesus, the apostles, and the early Church---that is, the Septuagint---contained all seven of the OT books that the "reformers" later presumed to remove.


                  "God's words," however, are in no way restricted to the Bible alone, as you apparently (and wrongly) assume. For example, see this.


                  How do you know he "knows Jesus and Jesus only," and by what criteria would you decide?


                  John Michael Talbot is a faithful Catholic, and so believes everything taught by Christ's one historic Catholic Church.


                  All informed Catholics would agree.


                  Thanks, but I'm familiar with his music. I listened to it for decades as a Protestant, and have continued to now for thirteen years as a Catholic.



                  Gaudium de veritate,

                  Cruiform
                  +T+
                  Let's respectfully agree to disagree. I hope Catholics are saved through Jesus. I do hope this.
                  Thanks.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by rougueone View Post
                    Let's respectfully agree to disagree.
                    What is it in Post #37 with which you "disagree"? Can you demonstrate why I'm wrong, in your opinion? I'd be glad to discuss with you what Catholics actually believe and teach.

                    I hope Catholics are saved through Jesus. I do hope this. Thanks.
                    If anyone is saved, it is only through Jesus. God bless.



                    Gaudium de veritate,

                    Cruciform
                    +T+
                    "The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Cruciform View Post
                      What is it in Post #37 with which you "disagree"? Can you demonstrate why I'm wrong, in your opinion? I'd be glad to discuss with you what Catholics actually believe and teach.


                      If anyone is saved, it is only through Jesus. God bless.



                      Gaudium de veritate,

                      Cruciform
                      +T+
                      I do not feel your " wrong". We disagree on crucial issues.

                      I was a former Catholic. 16 years. The issues I have are these :
                      Without Mary there would be no "Jesus".

                      Praying to Mary, adoration of Mary, and the prayer Rosary.

                      Catholic communion is the receiving of the Holy Spirit.

                      The Pope has the authority to make "Saints".

                      Purgatory.

                      Mortal, ( Unforgivable) sins, VS. Venial sins.

                      The " Rock" is not Peter. Nor the Vatican.

                      Calling a "Priest" Father.

                      Pope is the “Vicar of Christ” (a vicar is a substitute).

                      Just a few. There is a 99% chance I will not respond. I have been through this many, many, many, times. I should of never posted here.

                      Nothing personal.

                      Thanks.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        In his homily on New Year’s Day, Pope Francis said that Jesus and his mother Mary are “inseparable,” just like Jesus and the Church, who is the mother of all humanity that guides her children to God. " MARY" guides people to Jesus.

                        Without the Church and her guidance,( " Mary" is the church and has dominion over Jesus) . our relationship with Christ “would be at the mercy of our imagination, our interpretations, our moods,” the Roman Pontiff continued.

                        “She is the believer capable of perceiving in the gift of her Son the coming of that fullness of time…that is why Jesus cannot be understood without his Mother,” he said, reiterating that it is not possible to understand Jesus without the Church either, “because the Church and Mary always go together.”

                        By giving us Jesus,( MARY gave us Jesus ), the Church offers humanity the fullness of God’s eternal blessing, he said, noting that Mary is the “first and most perfect” disciple of Christ, and is the one who opens the path to receive the Church’s motherhood.

                        “What a beautiful greeting for our mother,” he said, and invited the congregation to join him in standing and honoring her by reciting aloud the title “Mary, Holy Mother of God” three times. Mary is not Holy and GOD has no Mother.








                        Cardinal Francis Arinze, who’s considered a possible successor to Pope John Paul II, has denied Jesus is the only way to heaven. In a recent interview the spirited 66 year-old deputy for outreach to other religions was asked, “So was Jesus wrong when he said he was the way, the truth and the life?” Arinze responed, “If a person were to push what you said a little further and say that if you’re not a Christian you’re not going to heaven, we’d regard that person as a fundamentalist…and theologically wrong. I met in Pakistan a Muslim. He had a wonderful concept of the Koran. We were like two twins that had known one another from birth. And I was in admiration of this man’s wisdom. I think that man will go to heaven. There was a Buddhist in Kyoto, in Japan. This man, a good man, open, listening, humble–I was amazed. I listened to his works of wisdom and said to myself, “The grace of God is working in this man.” The interviewer then repeated the question, “So you can still get to heaven without accepting Jesus?” “Expressly, yes he laughs with the audience]” (Dallas Morning News, 3/20/99)

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by rougueone View Post
                          I do not feel your " wrong". We disagree on crucial issues.
                          If we disagree on an issue, there are only three possibilities:
                          • You're right and I'm wrong
                          • I'm right and you're wrong
                          • We're both wrong

                          Thus, if you believe you're right, then you must likewise believe that I am wrong.

                          I was a former Catholic. 16 years.
                          You left the Church, then, around age 16? This is fairly typical of former Catholics, who generally abandon Christ's one historic Church sometime between puberty and their college graduation. Sadly, however, they characteristically understand very little about the actual doctrines and practices of the Catholic Church, and so what they end up leaving behind is not really the Catholic Church herself, bit merely their own distorted and incomplete picture of what they wrongly think the Church believes and teaches. Tragic.

                          The issues I have are these:

                          Without Mary there would be no "Jesus".
                          Not the same Jesus, certainly, since Jesus human nature came from Mary. If Mary had declined God's invitation to be the mother of the Messiah (Lk. 1:38), things would have gone quite differently at the time. See this.

                          Praying to Mary, adoration of Mary...
                          Addressed here and here. (Incidentally, Catholics do not "adore" Mary, but rather venerate her as a model Christian.)

                          ...and the prayer Rosary.
                          See this.

                          Catholic communion is the receiving of the Holy Spirit.
                          I'm not sure what you mean by this. Can you elaborate?

                          The Pope has the authority to make "Saints".
                          Not the Pope, but the body of bishops (the Magisterium) as a whole. See this.

                          Purgatory.
                          Addressed here and here.

                          Mortal, (Unforgivable) sins, VS. Venial sins.
                          Mortal sins are not unforgivable (I thought you used to be Catholic! ). See this.

                          The " Rock" is not Peter.
                          Addressed here and here.

                          Nor the Vatican.
                          The Catholic Church has never taught that the "Rock" is the Vatican. (You seem to be rather uninformed about your former faith.)

                          Calling a "Priest" Father.
                          Addressed here and here.

                          Pope is the “Vicar of Christ” (a vicar is a substitute).
                          Addressed here and here.

                          Just a few. There is a 99% chance I will not respond. I have been through this many, many, many, times.
                          One's love of the truth seems reason enough to engage others on these points. Again, either I'm wrong, you're wrong, or we're both wrong. God will hold us accountable for how willing we are to know and do the truth.

                          I should of never posted here.
                          Why? What is it that you fear?


                          Gaudium de veritate,

                          Cruciform
                          +T+
                          "The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by rougueone View Post
                            ...MARY guides people to Jesus...
                            Amen [source].

                            ...MARY gave us Jesus...
                            See just above.

                            ...the title “Mary, Holy Mother of God” three times... GOD has no Mother.
                            Mary has been known as "Theotokos" (Greek, "God-bearer") since the earliest centuries of the Christian Church. See this. Put simply, the doctrine is this:
                            • Jesus Christ is God
                            • Mary bore and gave birth to Jesus Christ, who is God
                            • Therefore, Mary is the "mother of God"

                            Simple.

                            Cardinal Francis Arinze, who’s considered a possible successor to Pope John Paul II, has denied Jesus is the only way to heaven.
                            On the contrary. Cardinal Arinze has done no such thing, nor does the Catholic Church, which both teach that salvation comes only through Jesus Christ. (Once again, you appear to misunderstand what your former faith actually believes and teaches. This should certainly give you pause, and cause you to wonder whether you made a serious mistake in abandoning Christ's one historic Catholic Church in your youth.)

                            The interviewer then repeated the question, “So you can still get to heaven without accepting Jesus?” “Expressly, yes" he laughs with the audience.
                            One may ultimately be saved apart from an explicit knowledge of or allegiance to Jesus Christ (God is merciful, after all), but anyone who is ultimately saved is saved only through and by the redemptive merits Jesus Christ, even if one is not aware of that fact in this life. (See the Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 847.)



                            Gaudium de veritate,

                            Cruciform
                            +T+
                            "The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Cruciform View Post

                              The seven churches in Revelation were still local churches within the one historic Catholic Church,
                              which certainly extended beyond Asia Minor even then.

                              +T+
                              Catholic means that the whole of it is found in any part...

                              Because Christ is not divided...

                              But you seem to think that these local Churches
                              were under obedience to the Church in Rome, Italy,
                              in the first Century?

                              I would be interested in your first century evidence for this,
                              especially when a thousand years later,
                              when Latin Rome tried to INSERT its DOMINANCE
                              over the Eastern Communion of Churches,
                              that it utterly failed...
                              And Herself miscarried 500 years later...

                              Arsenios
                              Last edited by Arsenios; April 21st, 2015, 08:51 AM.
                              Arsenios

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Cruciform View Post
                                Consider the following facts regarding Christ's one historic Catholic Church:

                                Jesus promised, "I will build my Church [not "churchES"], and the powers of hell shall not prevail against it" (Mt. 16:18). This means that his Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from him. His Church will survive until his return.

                                The Catholic Church is the only universal Christian Church that has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian group is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant communities were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today's Protestant groups are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)

                                Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.

                                Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and the churches that send out door-to-door missionaries are young compared to the Catholic Church. Many of these churches began as recently as the nineteenth or twentieth century. Some even began during your lifetime. None of them can claim to be the Church Jesus established.*


                                That historical and ecclesiastical status belongs to the Catholic Church alone.



                                Gaudium de veritate,

                                Cruciform
                                +T+



                                _______
                                *http://www.catholic.com/documents/pi...illar-of-truth
                                Since his ministry was not to the Gentiles, but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, he is not talking about Christianity.

                                Matthew 15:24, he is speaking to the called out from Israel.

                                The Gentiles do not come in to play until the day of Pentecost doctrinally, but practically they do not come into play until Acts 10

                                Good thing for the followers of the Way that Jesus did not build the RCC. He is the head of the body of Christ, not a religious organization.

                                Jesus Christ does not do the building of the church in this age of grace, it is those who utilize their God given ministry of reconciliation who do that, under, of course the head of the body. II Corinthians 5:18-19
                                "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

                                "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

                                Pro scripture = Protestant

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