ECT PneumaPsucheSoma and AMR Discuss Trinitarianism

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

While I am interested in your opinion and have taken note of it my question was for PPS as he has offered Spiros Zodhiates as a reference point as it concerns Koine Greek at the expense Kittel and I was curious as to the reason being that their efforts stand atop the field of those attempting to preserve and understand the Koine.

Firstly, it was the initial leading of the Spirit. I had never once studied the original languages prior to early 2000; being saved and spirit-filled in early 1998 at age 35 after 28 years as a professing Believer with 12 years in a pulpit...but utterly lost without Christ because of a conceptualized understanding of the Trinity doctrine and other teachings. I was an unregenerate functional Tritheist, presuming the eternal Son and Holy Spirit were distinct with individuated sentient consciousness and volition (knowing all this only in retrospect now).

I do utilize TDNT and BDAG and other sources, but first-language German-thinkers (Kittel) and English-thinkers have inherently low-context patterns of mental and cultural functionalities to their innate sense of foundational thought. Zodhiates is a Cypress-born first-language native Greek-thinker, which is a much higher-context intrinsic fundamental approach for perspective that eclipses the English and German mind (and heart).

It's also because there is so much Scholasticism lingering in all modern works of the recent centuries, and Zodhiates has a very apophatic approach included with much of the lexical cataphatics; and he relentlessly compares and contrasts minutiae between multiple synonyms and antonyms, and derivatives and base structures.

I'm not married to Doc Z, and recognize some of the scattered deficiencies in his work, but I see his high-context baseline in everything that eclipses greater individual and collective efforts of low-context minds that can't compensate for their own level of content for thought and expression.

As I said, TDNT and BDAG are great resources. Referencing Zodhiates is as much for easy uniformity in sourcing as it is for accuracy, etc.

The central primary key is the definiton for Rhema, as referenced by Zodhiates. Without a depth of understanding for that (instead of trivially glossing it as an ambiguous synonym subordinate to Logos), Theology Proper, Cosmogony, the full Ontological Gospel, and foreknowledge/predestination can never be recognized and understood.

God's Rhema IS His hypostasis. It has to be. Rhema is the subject matter of the word; the content or substance OF all thought and speech; the thing (thought and) spoken ABOUT.

God, in His inherent Self-Conscious Self-Existence, is the only eternal and uncreated. There is nothing (no thing) else for Him to think or speak about that has inherent phenomenological reality of existence.

God is a singular hypostasis with a singular sentient consciousness and volition, and He created heavenly sempiternity AND the cosmos. That economy of action has NEVER perviously been accounted for in the Orthodoxy formulaic OR the anathemas for Theology Proper and Christology.

God's co-inherent processed Logos/Pneuma and God's co-processed inherent hypostasis LOOK and FUNCTION like three hypostasis in sempiternity (except the lack of an individuated prosopon for the Holy Spirit); but no formulaic actually accounted for the procession of the Son and Spirit. They all started in created sempiternity, presuming eternity and sempiternity to be "combined", and just declared otherwise without realizing the truth of God's transcendence.

The rest is just reconciliation in Patristic terminology and usage to retain the remainder of all that they presented in their incredible efforts to expound the truth.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

I remember my approach to the Greek text closely paralleled that of PPS... I used Zodhiates, because in one largish book you get all you need to do a fair exegesis of the Greek text... And what I REALLY LIKED about it was its breakdown of Greek words into their component root meanings, and the insights that such a breakdown affords... It was positively intoxicating, and very fertile ground for innovative interpretation of the text so understood...

And the truth is that there are a lot of places in the text where I think Greek words were used or coined that can ONLY be understood in terms of their root meanings... But this was in my pre-Christian reading, and it was in the Book of John, which carries the double whammy of being the easiest to translate and the hardest to understand of all the books of the Bible, except Revelation...

And the long and the short of it was that I got a great distance into the text in that manner, and finally realized that there was just no way that I could undeerstand the text without having SOME larger frame of reference... Spiritually discerned root-meaning reads of the text were ending up in contradictions or endless guessing... And I could, I suppose, have devised SOME accounting through those guesses, but when it came to that, I stopped, and backed out, and waited for the better approach...

Such is the allure of Zhodiates...

The other approaches are scholastic, and form great cataloguing enterprises, where all data is entered and assigned place and meaning, and the guy with the greatest catalog skills [the best memory] is the guy in charge of the meaning of Scripture...

So I walked away from that as well - My memory is not so good...

So there you have my take on PPS's why, and I know he will read this, and I am looking forward to his answer to you...

Arsenios

Simply... I was compelled by the Spirit to begin there. I know you don't think so, but I eschew Scholasticism (which is why I denounce Aquinas' work and applaud his ultimate desistance).

Zodhiates had an inherent high-context mind, and is the preeminent source in that manner.

ANY source accessing the Greek is exponentially better than the smug self-assured English-only approach with entitlement that God will compensate for everything in His sovereignty.

Low-context language is the primary tool for Satan's devices, and English is nearly the bottom of the barrel and has sculpted hearts and minds in utter vanity. I know... I've spent 17 years divesting it all by the Spirit as I'm resting in Christ.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Low-context language is the primary tool for Satan's devices, and English is nearly the bottom of the barrel and has sculpted hearts and minds in utter vanity. I know... I've spent 17 years divesting it all by the Spirit as I'm resting in Christ.

The Old Testament originally was written in Hebrew and Aramaic.
The New Testament originally was written in Greek by Hebrew and Aramaic speaking individuals.

The Greek language used by the Greek natives was a high-context language.

This is not the case with the Greek language that was used as a lingua franca by the writers of the New Testament.

Because Greek was used as a lingua franca, it was a low-context language, where the meaning was needed to be conveyed to people that lacked the context of the native Greek speakers.

The writing of the New Testament was done in a low-context language.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

The Old Testament originally was written in Hebrew and Aramaic.
The New Testament originally was written in Greek by Hebrew and Aramaic speaking individuals.

The Greek language used by the Greek natives was a high-context language.

This is not the case with the Greek language that was used as a lingua franca by the writers of the New Testament.

Because Greek was used as a lingua franca, it was a low-context language, where the meaning was needed to be conveyed to people that lacked the context of the native Greek speakers.

The writing of the New Testament was done in a low-context language.

All true. And yet... Koine is still derived and distilled from higher-context in a way that more and more modern low-context languages aren't constructed or used. Not even close, and it's the highest-context NT ever inspired, so...

English pales immeasurably, as does German; so the point stands. My issue is the foundational mental patterning of varying-context languages.

The benefit of low-context language as a receptor is that there is endless expression of correct concept once the content is specifically determined. Unaccompanied by such an inversion, English just produces endless relativistic perspectives of splintered and diluted partial truths that continually become less contentual as everything becomes hyper-conceptual (including endless binaries as doctrinal false dichotomies only focusing on limited perspectives, etc.).

False rhema and false logos to re-create the hearts and minds of men in another image. Whatever hypostasis as rhema is in the heart will determine the quality of the physis of one's nature and the outward presentation of one's hypostasis via the prosopon.

That's what happened to Eve and Adam in Eden by hearing another logos from another rhema; and that's why they then saw they were physically naked with an altered prosopon.

It matters. It matters unquantifiably. Our ontology is determined by it. Faith according to God's Rhema, or sin according to another.

I'm IN the Logos. Right "now" IN God's co-processed timeless hypostasis. Sheathed in the scabbard from whence God's Rhema was thrust by/as His Logos. Foreknown. Predestinated. Living and moving and having my being IN Christ. Partaking of God's divine nature.

Now and ever more for all sempiternity.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

The benefit of low-context language as a receptor is that there is endless expression of correct concept once the content is specifically determined. Unaccompanied by such an inversion, English just produces endless relativistic perspectives of splintered and diluted partial truths that continually become less contentual as everything becomes hyper-conceptual (including endless binaries as doctrinal false dichotomies only focusing on limited perspectives, etc.).

False rhema and false logos to re-create the hearts and minds of men in another image. Whatever hypostasis as rhema is in the heart will determine the quality of the physis of one's nature and the outward presentation of one's hypostasis via the prosopon.

That's what happened to Eve and Adam in Eden by hearing another logos from another rhema; and that's why they then saw they were physically naked with an altered prosopon.

It matters. It matters unquantifiably. Our ontology is determined by it. Faith according to God's Rhema, or sin according to another.

I'm IN the Logos. Right "now" IN God's co-processed timeless hypostasis. Sheathed in the scabbard from whence God's Rhema was thrust by/as His Logos. Foreknown. Predestinated. Living and moving and having my being IN Christ. Partaking of God's divine nature.

Now and ever more for all sempiternity.

:jump:

 

[Lazy afternoon]

PPS

(And for true Orthodox Trinitarians, none of the three alleged "persons" are entities. An entity is a distinct being.)

Are you saying Jesus is not a distinct being from the Father?

LA

Waiting for an answer, without big words.

Yes or no will do.

LA

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

PPS

Waiting for an answer, without big words.

Yes or no will do.

LA

Define "being" (in Greek from the inspired text, with accurate translated English) to avoid nebulous varied semantics and I'll gladly answer clearly.

God (the Father) and Jesus are not distinct ousios (or hypostases). I'm not a Unitarian, obviously.

Why do you care? You have no intention of considering any non-Unitarian view or of being cordial rather than impetuous and petulant (like by chasing me here and posting such a question from another thread as you just did)?

The most likely answer to your question, regardless of your definition for "being", is NO (though I'm revisiting anhypostasis/enhypostasis for careful prayerful scrutiny).

 

[genuineoriginal]

All true. And yet... Koine is still derived and distilled from higher-context in a way that more and more modern low-context languages aren't constructed or used. Not even close, and it's the highest-context NT ever inspired, so...

English pales immeasurably, as does German; so the point stands. My issue is the foundational mental patterning of varying-context languages.

That is why I mentioned the mental patterning of the writers of the New Testament Greek and how differently they used words from the high-context language used by Greek philosophers.

The disciples were not brought up with the mental patterning of the high-context Greek of the Greek philosophers, but were brought up in the Post-Diaspora Jewish culture of first century Israel under the Romans. Each of the writings of the disciples must be framed by the context of that culture and not according to the culture of the Greeks or the culture of the Hellenized Jews.

Paul was different than the disciples. He knew Greek but was brought up with the mental patterning of the Pharisees, who regularly dissected every word of the Tanakh to extract every possible and many impossible meanings from them as if they were written in a lower context than if they were written in English. The writings of Paul must be framed by the context of his background as a Pharisee and the methods that the Pharisees used to extract a multitude of meanings from each word.

 

[patrick jane]

PPS






Waiting for an answer, without big words.

Yes or no will do.

LA

just the fact that you and other "non-trins" keep asking and "trying" to prove YOUR interpretation, clearly shows uncertainty, confusion, and "acceptance" from OTHERS. i can go the rest of my life knowing God Is Christ and never say another word. unless, folks like you keep "popping" up, then i must respond. we only respond because you don't "get it". we get nothing by showing you and telling you, you seem to thrive on being "different" and WRONG

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Define "being" (in Greek from the inspired text, with accurate translated English) to avoid nebulous varied semantics and I'll gladly answer clearly.

God (the Father) and Jesus are not distinct ousios (or hypostases). I'm not a Unitarian, obviously.

Why do you care? You have no intention of considering any non-Unitarian view or of being cordial rather than impetuous and petulant (like by chasing me here and posting such a question from another thread as you just did)?

The most likely answer to your question, regardless of your definition for "being", is NO (though I'm revisiting anhypostasis/enhypostasis for careful prayerful scrutiny).

Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

It is not difficult to see that Jesus is a man (one being) who is bought before the Throne of the Almighty creator (another being) to receive a book from the hand of one being given to another being.

Do you disagree with this assessment from the English language.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

just the fact that you and other "non-trins" keep asking and "trying" to prove YOUR interpretation, clearly shows uncertainty, confusion, and "acceptance" from OTHERS. i can go the rest of my life knowing God Is Christ and never say another word. unless, folks like you keep "popping" up, then i must respond. we only respond because you don't "get it". we get nothing by showing you and telling you, you seem to thrive on being "different" and WRONG

Go away junior, and do some study.

LA

 

[Nang]

Go away junior, and do some study.

LA

Ah, give him some slack . . If he does not disrupt threads, he will not earn his minimum wage doing his real job.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Ah, give him some slack . . If he does not disrupt threads, he will not earn his minimum wage doing his real job.

Yes, its terrible him disrupting threads like that.

LA

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

It is not difficult to see that Jesus is a man (one being) who is bought before the Throne of the Almighty creator (another being) to receive a book from the hand of one being given to another being.

LA

Yup, purdy easy.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

It is not difficult to see that Jesus is a man (one being) who is bought before the Throne of the Almighty creator (another being) to receive a book from the hand of one being given to another being.

Do you disagree with this assessment from the English language.

LA

Sigh. I guess you think the seven spirits of God are seven different spirits, too.

If you spent time truly understanding every historical view of Theology Proper, you wouldn't have to engage in fallacies to misrepresent doctrinal formulaics by building doctrines on personal pronouns just like conventional Trinitarians.

This is beyond lame, and I suppose you think God has a literal inherent physical hand the size of a man's hand; and you'd likely insist a throne is an actual ornate chair of some kind.

Your miniscule myopic understanding is noted.

 

[Cross Reference]

Sigh. I guess you think the seven spirits of God are seven different spirits, too.

If you spent time truly understanding every historical view of Theology Proper, you wouldn't have to engage in fallacies to misrepresent doctrinal formulaics by building doctrines on personal pronouns just like conventional Trinitarians.

This is beyond lame, and I suppose you think God has a literal inherent physical hand the size of a man's hand; and you'd likely insist a throne is an actual ornate chair of some kind.

Your miniscule myopic understanding is noted.

Why not??

 

[Lon]

John 4:24

 

[Cross Reference]

John 4:24

Exo.33:13 > > > > > Exo. 34:10.

 

[Arsenios]

Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

It is not difficult to see that Jesus is a man (one being) who is bought before the Throne of the Almighty creator (another being) to receive a book from the hand of one being given to another being.

Do you disagree with this assessment from the English language.

LA

You forgot 5:3 which you just quoted...

You are calling no man a man - (follow the two underlinings...)

You are calling the One Who opened the Book a MAN when Scripture plainly tells you NO MAN was able...

Not on earth...
Not in Heaven...
Even to LOOK UPON that Book...

So you have to ASK YOURSELF, LA...

WHO was that LION of the Tribe of Juda?

He was no man, as you proved in 5:3...
Not on earth, nor in the heavens...

And this LION is not a (mere) man...

He is the God-man Jesus Christ...

Who is ABOVE the earth and the Heavens...

ABOVE means NOT CONTAINED WITHIN...

Who being God took His human flesh to the Right Hand of the Most High, and rules all creation from the Throne of the Lamb...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

All true. And yet... Koine is still derived and distilled from higher-context in a way that more and more modern low-context languages aren't constructed or used. Not even close, and it's the highest-context NT ever inspired, so...

They are just words... I started out in the Attic Greek, and would not "lower myself" to read that "baby-greek koine garbage"... As a literary work, Bible Greek is foolishness...

English pales immeasurably, as does German; so the point stands. My issue is the foundational mental patterning of varying-context languages.

It is true that there is a different structuring of thought with Greek from other languages... It takes a shift to go from the local language to the Greek, yet all did it in the Roman Empire, for it was the Language of that Empire... (Latin was a local language from Italia...)

But the essential point is the relevance of words... All that these words, however structured they may turn out to be, and however nuanced and precise, are still merely words... They designate concepts held mentally, and REFER TO something... And it is that to which they refer that is what is essential, and that is beyond words... Even at a material level... And so much more so regarding the things of God...

Divine Ascent, which Paul wrote about, "whether in the body or out of the body, I know not... God knows..." is wordless, and non-conceptual... All that is worldly is left behind, so that the ascent is such that one does not even know if he or she is in or out of the body while doing it...

The benefit of low-context language as a receptor is that there is endless expression of correct concept once the content is specifically determined. Unaccompanied by such an inversion, English just produces endless relativistic perspectives of splintered and diluted partial truths that continually become less contentual as everything becomes hyper-conceptual (including endless binaries as doctrinal false dichotomies only focusing on limited perspectives, etc.).

Even if you clean up the language with extensively corrected definitions and specifications, you have only exacerbated the problem by legionally multiplying the NUMBER of words involved... When the Truth is as close as your breath... And exists to be lived within you apart from words... Where words but describe what is being lived, and are not burdened with the impossible task of defining it...

False rhema and false logos to re-create the hearts and minds of men in another image. Whatever hypostasis as rhema is in the heart will determine the quality of the physis of one's nature and the outward presentation of one's hypostasis via the prosopon.

We cannot determine with words what our person will be... We can only turn from our sins, and call upon the Name of the Lord...

That's what happened to Eve and Adam in Eden by hearing another logos from another rhema; and that's why they then saw they were physically naked with an altered prosopon.

They turned away from God in order to become as God...

It matters. It matters unquantifiably. Our ontology is determined by it. Faith according to God's Rhema, or sin according to another.

Which is another way of saying it is personal between God and man... Words, even dogmatic words, are but path-markers that help those walking the path to not step from it to their destruction... But Spirit and Truth are not concepts and words... And every encounter with God is an encounter with a Person...

I'm IN the Logos. Right "now" IN God's co-processed timeless hypostasis. Sheathed in the scabbard from whence God's Rhema was thrust by/as His Logos. Foreknown. Predestinated. Living and moving and having my being IN Christ. Partaking of God's divine nature.

Now and ever more for all sempiternity.

All I am is a sin-bag of lawlessness so filled with self-centeredness that I cannot even walk on water... Heck, last time I tried I almost drowned...

An Orthodox Saint once advised, somewhat recently if I remember aright, that we are to "keep our minds in hell, and not despair..." Such that whenever we think [that be the concept with the designated cluster of words associated with it] we are SOME thing, we in that action lose whatever it was that we MAY have had prior to the thought...

Paul wrote about it thus: "THAT one (who ascended) was worthy, but I only boast in mine infirmities..." [by memory, but I think I have it aright...]

Stillness from words and even their thoughts...

No small matter... You can tape your mouth shut - For me it would be a START, mind you! But silencing the thoughts to purify the nous of worldly contamination contained in thoughts is the action needed to have the nous of Christ...

Arsenios