Problems with the Trinity.

[clefty]

No, Apostolic tradition=God's tradition.

yes on condition...if the OT teaches anything it is that...authority has a standard and is given "ON CONDITION"

and make a two category list of "now" and "then" and well things were shall we say "changed"...I mean they claim they were given authority to do so...but even now regrets from the faithful to changes made are rising...

Yours.

well in a test of honesty you fail because a well placed splinter can still blind...as you said...God being in the details...

Only difference is rite, not faith /doctrine, or morals.

well...depends on your scope

CCC claims

1957

Application of the natural law varies greatly; it can demand reflection that takes account of various conditions of life according to places, times, and circumstances. Nevertheless, in the diversity of cultures, the natural law remains as a rule that binds men among themselves and imposes on them, beyond the inevitable differences, common principles.

1958

The natural law is immutable and permanent throughout the variations of history;it subsists under the flux of ideas and customs and supports their progress. The rules that express it remain substantially valid. Even when it is rejected in its very principles, it cannot be destroyed or removed from the heart of man. It always rises again in the life of individuals and societies:

1968

The Law of the Gospel fulfills the commandments of the Law. The Lord's Sermon on the Mount, far from abolishing or devaluing the moral prescriptions of the Old Law, releases their hidden potential and has new demands arise from them:​

No you don't. He held a real pastorate. That pastorate exists today.

Indeed it does...the office remains...but Peter clearly warned us of officers in that office that might greatly vary the application of the law within the flux of ideas and customs supporting their progression and from those that arise NEW demands from these Laws.

Peter was clear...rather we follow Yah than man's traditions...I think I agree with him...

Happily a standard has been preserved by which we can measure.

lol, I misread you, I thought you wrote "without" not "within".

lol details right? no problem....man ain't perfect...rather you misread me than well you know...scriptures...

but it now confuses it even more because if you answered "including me" thinking I wrote "without"

so you are including yourself with those "without" the church renouncing V2?

or including yourself with those in the church "without" renouncing V2

details details...amazing we have the BIBLE at all eh?

thanks for preserving it and giving it to us...finally


with the wrapping on it...unopened...barely read...LOL

 

[7djengo7]

Good question!

Whenever God is referenced in the Bible except for cases where it is referring to "little g" gods, it refers to God of Abraham. When the Father is mentioned, it refers to the same God of Abraham.

In the Bible, Jesus is referred to as Son of Man, unique Son of God, Messiah, lord, king, rabbi, Christ, Savior, and prophet. God gave Jesus spirit without limit. For this reason, Jesus speaks God's words. Jesus has revealed God to the world. However, Jesus is not God.

Oh. So, when you say "Jesus is not God", all you are saying is that Jesus is not God the Father?

 

[Rondonmonson]

As I've studied the Bible I've come to disagree more and more with the Trinity. Now I'm on the cusp of openly denying it. Unfortunately, most forums actually go out of their way to prevent people from discussing the Trinity. I found it awfully surreal when I read an incomplete list of reasons why Isaac Newton was looking into the problem as well. Yet, even he couldn't discuss because most Trinitarians are murderous.

The Trinity is not something one can discuss in churches except to affirm it. The second one questions it, one is thrown out. So I can't really discuss it with Trinitarians since they refuse to do so unless I declare to be a Muslim. Then, they will talk to me?!

The first problem I find with the Trinity is that it is never explained in the New Testament. Now notice, I didn't say mentioned, I said explained. Most of passages people use to support the Trinity are not about the Trinity. Rather, passages about something else entirely are used to support the Trinity. "Calvinism" does something similar.

The second problem I find with the Trinity is that the idea is first fully explained in a non-heretical way in the fourth century. Calvinism is similar.

The third problem I find with the Trinity is that Trinitarians have burned and destroyed books that disagreed with them. In fact, they have gone farther. They have actually changed passages in the Bible - see 1 John 5:7 and Luke 3:22. While Calvinists haven't gone so far as to falsify scripture, they have definitely burned books and twisted the meaning of words in scripture.

The fourth problem I find with the Trinity is that Trinitarians use many terms that don't exist in the bible to explain what they mean. For example, Trinitarians say that Jesus is fully man and fully God. The terms "fully man" and "fully God" are not in the Bible. When I ask what they mean by "fully God", they will often say "fully God means fully God" as if that explains anything. Calvinists also often say "God is God" thinking that that explains their beliefs. Calvinists will use terms from the Bible but they won't mean the same thing the Calvinists are making them into.

The fifth problem I have with the Trinity is the problem of square circles. Jesus died. Did God die? Jesus knew less than other humans before growing up. Can the same be said of God? Calvinists like to say God controls everything but is not responsible for any sin. Both Trinitarians and Calvinists use mystery or flawed logic to explain their beliefs.

The sixth problem I have with the Trinity is that many Trinitarians believe that is you don't believe in the Trinity, you're going to Hell. Many Calvinist believe the same about Calvinism. Yet, none of the apostles ever said this. "because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." is not Trinitarian or Calvinist.

The more I argued with Calvinists, the more I've found that Trinitarianism has the same if not greater problems.

You'all are welcome to convince me otherwise but I'm pretty close to completely renouncing the Trinity.

You can belive as you so desire, of course, but if there is no Trinity, then there is no Holy Spirit nor Redeemer who are Holy because only God is Holy, so it defeats being a Christian.

I can explain the trinity via a demonstration, and no, Jesus is not God the Father, he is God the Son. That is where many people like you get stumped. DEMONSTRATION:

Take a Reservoir of three trillion gallons of water, every ounce of that Water is exactly the same in its chemical make-up. Take 100 gallons (Jesus) of that water and pour/dump it over someone's head, they will of course be soaking wet, but they should be ok. Take another 100 gallons (Holy Spirit) of that water and dump it on the same person's head, again they will be soaked, but OK. Now, take all Three Trillion Gallons (God the Father/The Abundance of the Glory) of that water and dump it on that person's head and my guess he will surely drown.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have the EXACT SAME ATTRIBUTES, they are Peace, Love, Kindness, Holy, Compassion, Joy, Longsuffering, Merciful, Forgiving, Hopeful, etc. etc. etc. So like, the WATER they are the same throughout, but God the Father has the Abundance of the Glory, thus Moses could not look upon God lest he died, the 70 that tried to look in the Ark of the Covenant died, but men looked upon Jesus, we have the Holy Spirit living in our hearts, the same love, joy, and peace God has abides in us, but the Fullness of the Glory of God in our hearts would CONSUME us. We would not survive that encounter.

So, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the EXACT likenesses of the Father, but the Father has the Abundance of the Glory.

 

[clefty]

You can belive as you so desire, of course, but if there is no Trinity, then there is no Holy Spirit

so it has to be 3 in order for there to be a Holy Spirit? It is the Father’s Spirit BTW...and has NO NAME...

nor Redeemer who are Holy because only God is Holy, so it defeats being a Christian.

“I am Savior there is no other”...Isaiah 43:11...He lied? Of course not He sent His ONLY Begotten to save...is HOW He is savior...how is belief IN Whom He sent by His Spirit to SAVE US defeated?

I can explain the trinity via a demonstration, and no, Jesus is not God the Father, he is God the Son. That is where man people like you get stumped. DEMONSTRATION:

Take a Reservoir of three trillion gallons of water, every ounce of that Water is exactly the same in its chemical make-up. Take 100 gallons (Jesus) of that water and pour/dump it over someone's head, they will of course be soaking wet, but they should be ok. Take another 100 gallons (Holy Spirit) of that water and dump it on the same person's head, again they will be soaked, but OK. Now, take all Three Trillion Gallons (God the Father/The Abundance of the Glory) of that water and dump it on that person's head and my guess he will surely drown.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have the EXACT SAME ATTRIBUTES, they are Peace, Love, Kindness, Holy, Compassion, Joy, Longsuffering, Merciful, Forgiving, Hopeful, etc. etc. etc. So like, the WATER they are the same throughout, but God the Father has the Abundance of the Glory, thus Moses could not look upon God lest he died, the 70 that tried to look in the Ark of the Covenant died, but men looked upon Jesus, we have the Holy Spirit living in our hearts, the same love, joy, and peace God has abides in us, but the Fullness of the Glory of God in our hearts would CONSUME us. We would not survive that encounter.

So, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the EXACT likenesses of the Father, but the Father has the Abundance of the Glory.

The irony is we too are made of Water and in HIS IMAGE a likeness which extends beyond what we look like but also HOW WE LIVE...and learning the LAWS of floating and swimming we merely end up in a larger body of water...what does THAT demonstrate? Learn the LAWS to survive His Holy deluge...LIVE AS HE LIVES...you know...the One in Whose likeness we are made...

also the irony that Our Savior Who was SENT as a LIFE GUARD not only SAVES us but also teaches us exactly HOW TO SWIM...to survive His Holy baptism...is WHY we WANT to live JUST AS He did...

final irony...aren’t you a “Jesus fish”?...LOL...

https://www.123rf.com/photo_86224625...vghrrjto52-1-1

 

[Rondonmonson]

You can belive as you so desire, of course, but if there is no Trinity, then there is no Holy Spirit nor Redeemer who are Holy because only God is Holy, so it defeats being a Christian.

I can explain the trinity via a demonstration, and no, Jesus is not God the Father, he is God the Son. That is where many people like you get stumped. DEMONSTRATION:

Take a Reservoir of three trillion gallons of water, every ounce of that Water is exactly the same in its chemical make-up. Take 100 gallons (Jesus) of that water and pour/dump it over someone's head, they will of course be soaking wet, but they should be ok. Take another 100 gallons (Holy Spirit) of that water and dump it on the same person's head, again they will be soaked, but OK. Now, take all Three Trillion Gallons (God the Father/The Abundance of the Glory) of that water and dump it on that person's head and my guess he will surely drown.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have the EXACT SAME ATTRIBUTES, they are Peace, Love, Kindness, Holy, Compassion, Joy, Longsuffering, Merciful, Forgiving, Hopeful, etc. etc. etc. So like, the WATER they are the same throughout, but God the Father has the Abundance of the Glory, thus Moses could not look upon God lest he died, the 70 that tried to look in the Ark of the Covenant died, but men looked upon Jesus, we have the Holy Spirit living in our hearts, the same love, joy, and peace God has abides in us, but the Fullness of the Glory of God in our hearts would CONSUME us. We would not survive that encounter.

So, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the EXACT likenesses of the Father, but the Father has the Abundance of the Glory.

1. The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit, the Comforter, hes not the Father. Hes a part of the Father, as is Jesus, remember Jesus said I and the Fater are one.

2. You do know what Yeshua means right? Salvation, so when Joseph head the Angel says you shall name him Yeshua, it means SALVATION, remember the old man said I have seen my Salvation. Psstt, Jesus' name is in the Old Testament, everywhere you see Salvation PERSONALIZED (LOL) it means Jesus/Yeshua/Salvation. I can show you verses that would blow your mind, you can see it's talking about a Personhood.

In Genesis chapter 1:26, what does God say? Let ME Create Man in my Image? No, He says let US create Man in OUR image and in OUR likeness !! Jesus is also Eternal.


Gen. 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 

[clefty]

1. The Holy Spirit is Good's Spirit, the Comforter, hes not the Father.

I think you meant God’s Spirit? Is why I use their names...Yah’s spirit...and it is good...

yes and a comforter...but that is NOT its name...it does NOT have one...everything worshipped has a name...proper name...even the bronze serpent was named because it was worshipped...and finally destroyed as Yah’s Spirit had departed from it...and without which it was merely an idol/relic

2. You do know what Yeshua means right?

You did not quote me but I assume you are addressing me...

Salvation,

more specifically “Yah is Salvation”...again names matter...how is Yah salvation? Through His ONLY Begotten He sent to save...

so when Joseph head the Angel says you shall name him Yeshua, it means SALVATION, remember the old man sid I have seen my Salvation. Psstt, Jesus' name is in the Old Testament, everywhere you see Salvation PERSONALIZED (LOL) it means Jesus/Yeshua/Salvation.I can show you verses that would blow your mine, you can see it's talking about a Personhood.

start with spelling correctly...that would also be impressive...

In Genesis chapter 1:26, what does God say? Let ME Create the Man in my Image? No, He says let US create Man in OUR image and in OUR likeness !!

“Us” and “Our” can also refer to TWO and NOT three...and His Son BY Whom all things were created...John 1:2-3,10 1 Cor 8:6, Col 1:16, Heb 1:2, Rev 3:14

Jesus is also Eternal.

but NOT Immortal...there is ONLY ONE IMMORTAL...we too were created to live forever...eternal...but NOT immortal...but dependant on the tree of life...separated from that we perish...

we are NOT made from Him Begotten as His Son was but created from dust and given His Spirit...thus ADOPTED...NOT BY OUR BLOOD...we ONLY have claims to rights and promises enshrined by His LAW (adoption) NOT our blood (substance) which is dust...ALL of mankind’s inheritance is by adoption and NOT by our blood...hope you realize how important that is to understand...

Gen. 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

yup...TWO is enough for us...not three...HalleluYah...

Is WHY He made them two...and not three...Their Image is two and NOT three...

And Adam was the third member of the Creation Team...naming all which was created...Gen 2:19-20

 

[Lon]

You can belive as you so desire, of course, but if there is no Trinity, then there is no Holy Spirit nor Redeemer who are Holy because only God is Holy, so it defeats being a Christian.

I can explain the trinity via a demonstration, and no, Jesus is not God the Father, he is God the Son. That is where many people like you get stumped. DEMONSTRATION:

Take a Reservoir of three trillion gallons of water, every ounce of that Water is exactly the same in its chemical make-up. Take 100 gallons (Jesus) of that water and pour/dump it over someone's head, they will of course be soaking wet, but they should be ok. Take another 100 gallons (Holy Spirit) of that water and dump it on the same person's head, again they will be soaked, but OK. Now, take all Three Trillion Gallons (God the Father/The Abundance of the Glory) of that water and dump it on that person's head and my guess he will surely drown.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have the EXACT SAME ATTRIBUTES, they are Peace, Love, Kindness, Holy, Compassion, Joy, Longsuffering, Merciful, Forgiving, Hopeful, etc. etc. etc. So like, the WATER they are the same throughout, but God the Father has the Abundance of the Glory, thus Moses could not look upon God lest he died, the 70 that tried to look in the Ark of the Covenant died, but men looked upon Jesus, we have the Holy Spirit living in our hearts, the same love, joy, and peace God has abides in us, but the Fullness of the Glory of God in our hearts would CONSUME us. We would not survive that encounter.

So, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the EXACT likenesses of the Father, but the Father has the Abundance of the Glory.

Of course Spirit is indivisible, but great analogy and your first sentence is correct and well-thought. "Only God is Good..." Luke 18:19 John 10:11 "I Am the Good Shepherd..." :up:

 

[Pierac]

I have a thread, in this section, on the trinity, but your question isn't generally in the 'exclusive' section (might be moved to general).

The Triune thread isn't for arguing over the trinity (nor is this one as long as it is in this section). It presents many compelling verses and truths that I believe demonstrate clearly that a Christian who understands truths and scripture, will have no other doctrine than that there is only one God, and that Father, Son, and Spirit are called God.

I use the term 'tri-une' or triunity because tri- usually gets emphasis rather than -une in most discussions and laity aren't as equipped arguing or discussing the difference.

In two sentences: God is presented as one in all of scripture thus '-une' is indisputable for all of Christendom.

The presentations of God are given in the Bible: Father Son Spirit. Paul, without flinching calls the Lord Jesus Christ our "Great God and Savior." Thomas, in John 20 calls Him "Lord of me and God of me!" The Spirit is also called God.

Whatever position we call it, the position that recognizes that scripture gives these two truths, whoever adheres to these scriptural givens, are called 'Trinitarian' or 'Triune.'

Joh 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

So you have no clue.... You follow the lie you have heard over 1000 times... but deny the truth you see for only once! Jesus is telling you... the only true God! One God and one whom was sent buy His GOD!

 

[musterion]

As I've studied the Bible I've come to disagree more and more with the Trinity. Now I'm on the cusp of openly denying it. Unfortunately, most forums actually go out of their way to prevent people from discussing the Trinity. I found it awfully surreal when I read an incomplete list of reasons why Isaac Newton was looking into the problem as well. Yet, even he couldn't discuss because most Trinitarians are murderous.

The Trinity is not something one can discuss in churches except to affirm it. The second one questions it, one is thrown out. So I can't really discuss it with Trinitarians since they refuse to do so unless I declare to be a Muslim. Then, they will talk to me?!

The first problem I find with the Trinity is that it is never explained in the New Testament. Now notice, I didn't say mentioned, I said explained. Most of passages people use to support the Trinity are not about the Trinity. Rather, passages about something else entirely are used to support the Trinity. "Calvinism" does something similar.

The second problem I find with the Trinity is that the idea is first fully explained in a non-heretical way in the fourth century. Calvinism is similar.

The third problem I find with the Trinity is that Trinitarians have burned and destroyed books which disagreed with them. In fact, they have gone farther. They have actually changed passages in the Bible - see 1 John 5:7 and Luke 3:22. While Calvinists haven't gone so far as to falsify scripture, they have definitely burned books and twisted the meaning of words in scripture.

The fourth problem I find with the Trinity is that Trinitarians use many terms which don't exist in the bible to explain what they mean. For example, Trinitarians say that Jesus is fully man and fully God. The terms "fully man" and "fully God" are not in the Bible. When I ask what they mean by "fully God", they will often say "fully God means fully God" as if that explains anything. Calvinists also often say "God is God" thinking that that explains their beliefs. Calvinists will use terms from the Bible but they won't mean the same thing the Calvinists are making them into.

The fifth problem I have with the Trinity is the problem of square circles. Jesus died. Did God die? Jesus knew less than other humans before growing up. Can the same be said of God? Calvinists like to say God controls everything but is not responsible for any sin. Both Trinitarians and Calvinists use mystery or flawed logic to explain their beliefs.

The sixth problem I have with the Trinity is that many Trinitarians believe that is you don't believe in the Trinity, you're going to Hell. Many Calvinist believe the same about Calvinism. Yet, none of the apostles ever said this. "because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." is not Trinitarian or Calvinist.

The more I argued with Calvinists, the more I've found that Trinitarianism has the same if not greater problems.

You'all are welcome to convince me otherwise but I'm pretty close to completely renouncing the Trinity.

First, what is the saving gospel?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

As I've studied the Bible I've come to disagree more and more with the Trinity.

Actually from what you've written is seems obvious that the only PROBLEM you have is with "Trinitarians", and "Religious doctrine".

Bottom line - Jesus specifically mentions FATHER, SON, and Holy Spirit. They all show up when Jesus is Baptized.

Theologians have a "Field day" with that, and whomp up all sorts of Magnificent theological structures and diagrams about it. WHO CARES. There's the FATHER GOD. There's the physical incarnation of the WORD who was with God and who was God who's name is Jesus, and there's the HOLY SPIRIT.

Anything beyond that is "religious speculation" - about something humans WILL NEVER FULLY UNDERSTAND on this side of the grass. And there's no reason to "Try figuring it out" - because you won't.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

An appeal to mystery. If it is a mystery, why are Trinitarians so adamant that people have to believe it.

The following words of the Lord Jesus warn what will happen if people don't believe that He was from heaven:

"And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (Jn.8:23-24).​