Problems with the Trinity.

Lon

Well-known member
Ad hominins and projecting doesn't work against me.
Ad Hominem... :think:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Let's see:
:sigh: No, it is not pushed by only the KJVO crowd. I'm not KJVO. The truth isn't THAT complicated, the family trees of texts aren't an easy wade, but it is not that complicated. The two main lines of thought in all of Christendom are these: That the Byzantine texts are better, because they were recorded all the same thus 'right' or that the Alexandrian texts were, because they have 'less' than the other. It isn't more complicated than that but it is foolhardy to make doctrines that differ from one another out of that.
You thought 'foolhardy' was a character assassination? :dizzy:

You are simply asserting. I didn't go "on and on" :plain: You are already starting on a less than 'holy spirit' inspired direction. Why do cultists think they are following the Holy Spirit when they begin lacking grace? If this is the mark of your departure, you may want to examine it. If it isn't producing Godliness and a love for God's people, you are going the wrong direction, however 'right for you' it might seem to be. Take it as a warning flag.
Telling you to watch what your demeanor is, as you are debating this, whether it is producing godliness or not, is character assassination? :doh:

Still waiting for your example before the 4th century.
No you are not. I linked two articles
showing the early church fathers 'before 4th century' believe the Lord Jesus Christ was God.

As I said, I cannot prove something when someone stops their ears and will not listen. I cannot magic you away from willful ignorance.
 

clefty

New member
Are you mentioning?

1 John 5:6 ESV
This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

Does this passage say Jesus is God? Does it say that the spirit is God? Does it say that Jesus was co-eternal with the spirit? Does it say that Jesus and the spirit have equal glory?

Nope...

nope...nope...nope...aaaand nope...


Does it really have two degrees or does it simply mention 2 degrees.

Wow...easy there shooter...hitting friendlies...

was making sure you noted that “he of TWO links provided for your correction” also has TWO degrees which he told you not once but TWICE about...to make you sure you know what you are up against...

some round here insist on agreement or kiss the ring...or censure...

good luck with this one as even CHRISTENDOM can NOT agree on which version of the Trinity is correct despite who knows how many degrees and doctorates... and long winded posting appealing to compromise and conclusion

or else...
 

Hilltrot

Well-known member
Nope...

nope...nope...nope...aaaand nope...

Wow...easy there shooter...hitting friendlies...

was making sure you noted that “he of TWO links provided for your correction” also has TWO degrees which he told you not once but TWICE about...to make you sure you know what you are up against...

some round here insist on agreement or kiss the ring...or censure...

good luck with this one as even CHRISTENDOM can NOT agree on which version of the Trinity is correct despite who knows how many degrees and doctorates... and long winded posting appealing to compromise and conclusion

or else...

I apologize. I did not mean to strawman.

People with degrees do not intimidate me. I'm not sure what education anyone has here and I do not expect nor do I want people to dox themselves so that I know. Arguments should stand by themselves.

A lot of people avoid the Trinity primarily because denying it has definite ramifications and you've already mentioned understanding it.
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
Well, you missed his point. It was a dig on me (remember me talking about bitterness and animosity for those in the church as a sign of a huge problem?). Clefty is on my ignore list, so wasted a moment to show you clearly who he is and what's inside his heart (and apparently a need/desire to try and discredit). Why? Who knows, but not the godly fruit one looks for in these discussions. Bitterness is its own fruit. It still hurts my soul to see people (Clefty in this post) championing anybody but Christ in their lives and theology. Following me around to be mean? To try and be a general pain? It makes absolutely no holy or godly sense.

Clefty wasn't talking about the scriptures. He used this time, unfortunately, for talking about his envy or hatred or whatever of me. Sadly, not worth your time. I'm certainly not worthy of such effort so cannot fathom the need or desire in him to do this :idunno:
@clefty is on my ignore list too, but it's the good kind of ignore list, where I see his or her posts all the time, but I don't reply anymore, which is what real ignoring is on social media. It's not not seeing his or her posts, it's not responding to them in anyway. Of course for me, I prefer less binary options. I go through seasons, where I ignore this or that user, and sometimes I surprisingly respond just to poke at him or her, like a wasps' nest, to see if he or she is still a wasps' nest or if he or she has changed. Usually no. Like almost all the time no. But on the million-to-1 shot that he or she does change, I have that option open, because I'm fundamentally an optometrist, not a pessimist.
 
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Lon

Well-known member
@clefty is on my ignore list too, but it's the good kind of ignore list, where I see his or her posts all the time, but I don't reply anymore, which is what real ignoring is on social media. It's not not seeing his or her posts, it's not responding to them in anyway. Of course for me, I prefer less binary options. I go through seasons, where I ignore this or that user, and sometimes I surprisingly respond just to poke at him or her, like a wasps' nest, to see if he or she is still a wasps' nest or if he or she has changed. Usually no. Like almost all the time no. But on the million-to-1 shot that he or she does change, I have that option open, because I'm fundamentally an optometrist, not a pessimist.

Thanks. I'm not a pessimist, but when someone goes on ignore, its because conversation is no longer taking place, just banter. They are certainly welcome to read me, and as this thread shows, for good or bad, they do. I'm not really losing anything for growing my ignore list. I'm gaining a bit of peace of mind because I don't really need the "I don't like Lon or what he says" input. I'm not really worth that kind of animosity and they'll have to stand for it. I certainly don't want to add to that fodder or encourage it, so I think ignore leaves those decisions in their own hands and at the very least, I'm not part of that poor continued effect, regardless of where it started. Some people get so caught up in their 'us/them' mantra, they have no room in heart or head for anything they stand for, like the foot saying to the hand it isn't needed or appreciated. :idunno:
 

clefty

New member
I apologize. I did not mean to strawman.
is ok...least scare crow had a heart...lol

People with degrees do not intimidate me. I'm not sure what education anyone has here and I do not expect nor do I want people to dox themselves so that I know. Arguments should stand by themselves.
agreed but well it has been centuries and Christendom still hasn’t concluded it and now is flooded by Muslims who will only further challenge their ignorance...

A lot of people avoid the Trinity primarily because denying it has definite ramifications and you've already mentioned understanding it.

yeah but the bullies work from insecurity...why KILL a man if he is an idiot and NOT convincing?

History reveals the Pharisee/Inquisitor is ALWAYS threatened by the weakness of his argument...fearful the dissenting “heretic” will win over the crowd...to the mighty victor go the scrolls...

Yahushua brilliantly flush that up for us when asked “HOW MANY DEGREES doest thou have?” He responded “by what authority does John the Baptist teach”

Immediately the bullies realized they were bested...if they answered “Yah” they would have to concede to the Baptizer but if they didn’t...well they feared “We the People”...works even in secular politics...

Yup is why the Papists denied ”We the People” had rights to read for ourselves...we might undermine their authority get it all wrong...

oh well...as I said...all the best on this topic here...with these...bullies?...minority opinion is most difficult...

as first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight...well usually...some minority opinion is just ignored and censured

is why the way is narrow...
 
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clefty

New member
@clefty is on my ignore list too, but it's the good kind of ignore list, where I see his or her posts all the time, but I don't reply anymore, which is what real ignoring is on social media. It's not not seeing his or her posts, it's not responding to them in anyway. Of course for me, I prefer less binary options. I go through seasons, where I ignore this or that user, and sometimes I surprisingly respond just to poke at him or her, like a wasps' nest, to see if he or she is still a wasps' nest or if he or she has changed. Usually no. Like almost all the time no. But on the million-to-1 shot that he or she does change, I have that option open, because I'm fundamentally an optometrist, not a pessimist.

“Poke at him or her like a wasp’s nest...”

nice...I see what you did there...

”see if he or she...has changed”

that remains typical

Hope yours can resolve this Trinity thingy with the EO before the pope waves all the muslims in...

they already lost the Church of Hagia Sophia...dedicated to the second person of the Trinity...now a mosque...
 

God's Truth

New member
“Poke at him or her like a wasp’s nest...”

nice...I see what you did there...

”see if he or she...has changed”

that remains typical

Hope yours can resolve this Trinity thingy with the EO before the pope waves all the muslims in...

they already lost the Church of Hagia Sophia...dedicated to the second person of the Trinity...now a mosque...

Clefty, do you believe Jesus is God?
 

clefty

New member
Clefty, do you believe Jesus is God?

Of course He is...but was not known as Jesus...

Yahushua being Lord of the Sabbath PROVES it...

as all things were made through Him John 1:3

See He was there “in the beginning”

He rescued us from the domain of darkness Col 1:13 (Please note domain of darkness is not removing ALL darkness OR SHADOWS...He just made it “night” and it has NO dominion over us...remind you of anything?)

and by Him all things were created Col 1:16...in six days...by His spoken word His breath...”receive ye the Spirit”...foreshadowed by Adam created NOT in an instant or by Spirit alone but shaped and formed in the dust and breathed into...so let all things that have breath praise Yah...

HalleluYah.

Yahushua could have begotten it all in an instant as He had been... but nope...He took His time with it...SIX DAYS...and then He rested and was refreshed...rested again in the tomb and was refreshed...resurrected on Sabbath...the tomb only discovered empty that first day of the week itself a First fruits celebration....

Why do you think I advocate the seventh day Sabbath?

Satan HATES Him...and ALL things He made...especially things He made Holy...like the Sabbath...as it PROVES His authority as God....

Satan seeks to destroy Him by removing all authority His Law provides Him...first as counterfeit light himself 2 Cor 11:14 and then through a counterfeit rest he created by deception with pompous words against the Most High a persecution of His saints and intent to change both times and Law Dan 7:25

Satan KNOWS changing His Law not only destroys His Divinity but abolishes our RIGHT TO ADOPTION...

EXACTLY WHY the Sabbath is counterfeited...

The Sabbath was made for man...

But NOOOO the rebellion maintains....He “broke it” the Pharisees claimed...”changed it” false witnessing Jews claimed...”nailed it to the cross” “there is a NEW law”...and most recently “Hell no...it ain’t FOR ME”

Why would the Lord of London destroy the city from which he derives his authority?

Why would Lord of the Rings melt the rings down into earrings or nails...alterning the sign us his power?

Why would the Lord of the Sabbath go against His OWN eternal Will...oh and since He is ONE with His Father why contradict His Father’s will?

The Law is ETERNAL IMMUTABLE PERFECT...as He is...and we made in His image...to behave and live JUST LIKE HIM...


You see Satan’s work? his hatred for ALL Holiness? His attack on Divinity?

Of course Yahusha is God...the Sabbath PROVES it...secures it...

Sabbath...made for man...as EVERYTHING was...as even the Lord of the Sabbath was ...and certainly not just for Jews...

and as He is...made for Eternity...a perpetual sign
 
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God's Truth

New member
Of course He is...but was not known as Jesus...

Yahushua being Lord of the Sabbath PROVES it...

as all things were made through Him John 1:3

See He was there “in the beginning”

He rescued us from the domain of darkness Col 1:13 (Please note domain of darkness is not removing ALL darkness OR SHADOWS...He just made it “night” and it has NO dominion over us...remind you of anything?)

and by Him all things were created Col 1:16...in six days...by His spoken word His breath...”receive ye the Spirit”...foreshadowed by Adam created NOT in an instant or by Spirit alone but shaped and formed in the dust and breathed into...so let all things that have breath praise Yah...

HalleluYah.

Yahushua could have begotten it all in an instant as He had been... but nope...He took His time with it...SIX DAYS...and then He rested and was refreshed...rested again in the tomb and was refreshed...resurrected on Sabbath...the tomb only discovered empty that first day of the week itself a First fruits celebration....

Why do you think I advocate the seventh day Sabbath?

Satan HATES Him...and ALL things He made...especially things He made Holy...like the Sabbath...as it PROVES His authority as God....

Satan seeks to destroy Him by removing all authority His Law provides Him...first as counterfeit light himself 2 Cor 11:14 and then through a counterfeit rest he created by deception with pompous words against the Most High a persecution of His saints and intent to change both times and Law Dan 7:25

Satan KNOWS changing His Law not only destroys His Divinity but abolishes our RIGHT TO ADOPTION...

EXACTLY WHY the Sabbath is counterfeited...

The Sabbath was made for man...

But NOOOO the rebellion maintains....He “broke it” the Pharisees claimed...”changed it” false witnessing Jews claimed...”nailed it to the cross” “there is a NEW law”...and most recently “Hell no...it ain’t FOR ME”

Why would the Lord of London destroy the city from which he derives his authority?

Why would Lord of the Rings melt the rings down into earrings or nails...alterning the sign us his power?

Why would the Lord of the Sabbath go against His OWN eternal Will...oh and since He is ONE with His Father why contradict His Father’s will?

The Law is ETERNAL IMMUTABLE PERFECT...as He is...and we made in His image...to behave and live JUST LIKE HIM...


You see Satan’s work? his hatred for ALL Holiness? His attack on Divinity?

Of course Yahusha is God...the Sabbath PROVES it...secures it...

Sabbath...made for man...as EVERYTHING was...as even the Lord of the Sabbath was ...and certainly not just for Jews...

and as He is...made for Eternity...a perpetual sign

It is good that you know Jesus is God, and that you don't believe in the trinity doctrine.

However, too bad that you keep changing God's word by injecting into the Sabbath day things you should not.

There are no shifting shadows in light.

In addition, you prove you have fallen from grace because you make an old law regulation about the Sabbath day a way to stay 'clean', or be unclean and condemned.

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Galatians 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
 

clefty

New member
It is good that you know Jesus is God, and that you don't believe in the trinity doctrine.
so glad you approve...


However, too bad that you keep changing God's word by injecting into the Sabbath day things you should not.
Sabbath obviously came first...you out of silence construct another gospel another gospel with a changeable law...fickle god dispensing contrarian laws...

You create a counterfeit and assist Satan's rebellion

to supplant Him His ways...too bad so sad...

There are no shifting shadows in light.
the remains day and night...3 days before the sun was involved...a cadence which still continues as it is His time...His calendar...day and night...and then there was evening and then there was morning...completed the day is counted...six times and then rest...

notice He didn't start the count when man was created...but later confirmed Sabbath the seventh day was made for man...just like in the garden Man's first full day was a Sabbath rest...a seventh day rest...JUST LIKE man's first full day in the New Covenant was a Sabbath rest seventh day...as He lay in the tomb and then rose rested and refreshed...Sunday the tomb was discovered empty

In addition, you prove you have fallen from grace because you make an old law regulation about the Sabbath day a way to stay 'clean', or be unclean and condemned.
you in FACT destroy His divinity by denying He upheld and kept and affirmed His Holy Day Sabbath and instructed we do the same...

instead you claim He destroyed the VERY SIGN He is DIVINE...as He was there and through Him and BY Him was all things made...except what you create and counterfeit to invalidate and annul what He did...

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above,
yup law is spiritual
coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights,
yup where He we will be also AS His Son made us in their image...doing as they do...

who does not change
yup "I DO NOT CHANGE" Yah thundered...

like shifting shadows.
you claim exactly that...that He does change like shifting shadows...LOL

Galatians 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Ok seriously I have spent a LOT of time SPECIFICALLY addressing this false witness...I am NOT justified by the Law as not even Israel was...but was SAVED FIRST and THEN given the LAW...unto righteousness BECAUSE they were SAVED

Sabbath SPECIFICALLY was practiced by Israel even BEFORE receiving the Law at Sinai with the Manna given establishing the count of the days...EVERY GOOD PERFECT GIFT is from ABOVE

Even Paul acknowledged " I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain." Gal 4:11 What labor did he bestow on the Celts? and why in vain? "every day is Holy eat whatever"? LOL hardly...

I am beginning to realize you have run out of new twists and clever rationalizations and are just repeating the same argument over and over...as well

So...either come up with NEW REBELLION or much of this has been asked AND ANSWERED...


When will you establish Law now having our faith? Romans 3:31...and finally STOP misrepresenting the Lord of the Sabbath...?
 

Lon

Well-known member
As I've studied the Bible I've come to disagree more and more with the Trinity. Now I'm on the cusp of openly denying it. Unfortunately, most forums actually go out of their way to prevent people from discussing the Trinity. I found it awfully surreal when I read an incomplete list of reasons why Isaac Newton was looking into the problem as well. Yet, even he couldn't discuss because most Trinitarians are murderous.
I should have noticed right off the bat how vitriolic this thread was going to be and where it could only be headed from here. :(
The Trinity is not something one can discuss in churches except to affirm it. The second one questions it, one is thrown out. So I can't really discuss it with Trinitarians since they refuse to do so unless I declare to be a Muslim. Then, they will talk to me?!
You have to 'lie' to get discussion? I've definitely participated in the wrong thread. There is no way anybody can convince you. It was just a bait. I need to be one of those supposedly 'murderous' Christians that don't want to discuss it with you. Self-fulfilling prophecy and all that, it is confirmation bias and there is not a chance you've given to anybody in grace or otherwise, to be heard. Without or without two links or two degrees. I'm out.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
As I've studied the Bible I've come to disagree more and more with the Trinity. Now I'm on the cusp of openly denying it. Unfortunately, most forums actually go out of their way to prevent people from discussing the Trinity. I found it awfully surreal when I read an incomplete list of reasons why Isaac Newton was looking into the problem as well. Yet, even he couldn't discuss because most Trinitarians are murderous.

The Trinity is not something one can discuss in churches except to affirm it. The second one questions it, one is thrown out. So I can't really discuss it with Trinitarians since they refuse to do so unless I declare to be a Muslim. Then, they will talk to me?!

The first problem I find with the Trinity is that it is never explained in the New Testament. Now notice, I didn't say mentioned, I said explained. Most of passages people use to support the Trinity are not about the Trinity. Rather, passages about something else entirely are used to support the Trinity. "Calvinism" does something similar.

The second problem I find with the Trinity is that the idea is first fully explained in a non-heretical way in the fourth century. Calvinism is similar.

The third problem I find with the Trinity is that Trinitarians have burned and destroyed books which disagreed with them. In fact, they have gone farther. They have actually changed passages in the Bible - see 1 John 5:7 and Luke 3:22. While Calvinists haven't gone so far as to falsify scripture, they have definitely burned books and twisted the meaning of words in scripture.

The fourth problem I find with the Trinity is that Trinitarians use many terms which don't exist in the bible to explain what they mean. For example, Trinitarians say that Jesus is fully man and fully God. The terms "fully man" and "fully God" are not in the Bible. When I ask what they mean by "fully God", they will often say "fully God means fully God" as if that explains anything. Calvinists also often say "God is God" thinking that that explains their beliefs. Calvinists will use terms from the Bible but they won't mean the same thing the Calvinists are making them into.

The fifth problem I have with the Trinity is the problem of square circles. Jesus died. Did God die? Jesus knew less than other humans before growing up. Can the same be said of God? Calvinists like to say God controls everything but is not responsible for any sin. Both Trinitarians and Calvinists use mystery or flawed logic to explain their beliefs.

The sixth problem I have with the Trinity is that many Trinitarians believe that is you don't believe in the Trinity, you're going to Hell. Many Calvinist believe the same about Calvinism. Yet, none of the apostles ever said this. "because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." is not Trinitarian or Calvinist.

The more I argued with Calvinists, the more I've found that Trinitarianism has the same if not greater problems.

You'all are welcome to convince me otherwise but I'm pretty close to completely renouncing the Trinity.

Very well said

You have done your homework
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
I have a thread, in this section, on the trinity, but your question isn't generally in the 'exclusive' section (might be moved to general).

The Triune thread isn't for arguing over the trinity (nor is this one as long as it is in this section). It presents many compelling verses and truths that I believe demonstrate clearly that a Christian who understands truths and scripture, will have no other doctrine than that there is only one God, and that Father, Son, and Spirit are called God.

I use the term 'tri-une' or triunity because tri- usually gets emphasis rather than -une in most discussions and laity aren't as equipped arguing or discussing the difference.

In two sentences: God is presented as one in all of scripture thus '-une' is indisputable for all of Christendom.

The presentations of God are given in the Bible: Father Son Spirit. Paul, without flinching calls the Lord Jesus Christ our "Great God and Savior." Thomas, in John 20 calls Him "Lord of me and God of me!" The Spirit is also called God.

Whatever position we call it, the position that recognizes that scripture gives these two truths, whoever adheres to these scriptural givens, are called 'Trinitarian' or 'Triune.'

You prove his points very convincingly
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
First, leave "Calvinist" behind. It is not part of this discussion and will only muddy the waters. You mention Calvinism a lot. Calvinists are a small portion of Christianity and that discussion is only going to confuse discussion here.


:nono: Not true. The early Church fathers began formulating ideas of what they believed. While it is understandable that one will wrestle with ideas presented in scripture, the church councils came to classify what scripture allows and what is outside of the parameters of those scriptures. As I've given above, the two truths are: One that scripture is abundantly clear that there is only one God and scripture is abundantly clear the Father, Son, and Spirit are/is God. Logic? It is simply to take scripture at its face value and neither ADD nor SUBTRACT from them, whether it SEEMS logically tenable to do something. Why? Because logic on this side is from man. Revelation is from God thus it was at the time of the councils, forbidden to go beyond or trounce upon, any scriptures God has given. Good rule, no? (yes, we don't want to even attempt to trample God with anything we believe).

If revisionist history is given its head, then there are all kinds of problematic take-aways from the revision. All books, even by orthodox theologians were forbidden at that time. Only church sanctioned books were allowed. Next, not all the books were destroyed, a good many circulated BUT the people were not literate so even those books were not available to the masses. Be careful with your indictments and only go so far as actual offenses allow. Next, there is a 'suspicion' in academic circles about how we have two different set of texts. While you may suggest that the scritpures were twisted, this isn't true. What is true of all texts is that some verses are left out. This does not indicate adding or revision. We've no idea what happened, can but make educated guesses. That's it. You cannot go further without it being untenable and generally a lie/inaccuracy. You don't want to change your position based off of even an exaggeration, because an exaggeration is not of God. It means, if you use this particular 'third problem' for changing, you are doing so upon an exaggeration.

This is just called language. A good many of the terms DO exist in the bible if you understand the term. For instance: Omnipotence. Is it in the bible? No, not "Omnipotence" but its equal "Almighty" is and that is exactly what omnipotence means. All it would take is for a translator to put "Omnipotence" in a bible in place of "Almighty." Then it'd be in a bible but Omnipotence IS, in fact a biblical term and taken directly from the Bible. Trinity likewise is not given, but "Godhead" is, and "I and the Father are one" is.


This is modalism: equating the Father as the Son. Your problem isn't a square circle, it is how you are able to grasp truths given in scripture whether you can explain them or not. There are many things given in scripture I cannot explain. I cannot explain God's eternal non-beginning. I cannot explain how the physical world came from Spirit. It doesn't mean I'm not intelligent or that I'm ignoring answers. Part of our Faith, is faith. A trust in God where I cannot rely upon myself. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Only Way to the Father.

Question: If I give someone a scripture, and they do not believe it, though it is in the Bible, does that make the person a Christian? Are they trusting God? Are they trusting Christ when they throw out that one scripture, whatever it may be? Would I say "going to hell?" I believe the problem is willful disregard for something God said, and it certainly is a problem. Does it condemn one to hell? I'd think rather, that God will bring about the change needed. The Holy Spirit indwells and guides His own, and so I don't think one with Him inside can resist for very long. Who can argue with God? The Lord Jesus Christ said He'd guide us into all truth.


Stop doing both? The issue is to know scriptures and continue to follow the Spirit's guidance in your life. He is not going to cause you to be in friction with the majority of the Body of Christ, that doesn't make sense but a good many heterodox and worse, fall exactly in that category. The Holy Spirit led Martin Luther, not to abandon the church, but to love it and try to reform it. The separation happened because Catholics forced the separation.


It isn't important what you decide, but rather if and as the Holy Spirit leads. He can and does, only lead in truth. If you are growing bitter, less loving toward the Body of Christ, it is a sign you probably aren't being led by the Spirit into all truth. Truth is the only direction He leads. I believe the scriptures given in the Triune thread and believe they are clear.

Again you provide substantial evidence for every point he makes

You do a better job of proving that the doctrine of the Trinity is non scriptural than he ever will
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
Read the sticky.

"The new standard for the "Exclusively Christian Theology" is to allow anyone to post here who considers themselves to be Christian and considers the Bible to be inspired by God."

I am posting in the right section.

Yes you are by their own rules
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
You don't need to go on and on. Just give be a single counterexample before the 4th century. The hypostatic union, equal standing between the Son, God and Holy Spirit, the son eternally begotten, etc. Just a clear explanation of the Trinity before the 4th century.

And no, no explanation exists in scripture.

Absolutely right
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
It's not true that in all texts verses are left out. However, scriptures are twisted. Sometimes in translation. But it is clear that Trinitarian verses have been added and others changed to support the trinitarian view. I am not exaggerating.

True
 

7djengo7

This space intentionally left blank
Read the sticky.

"The new standard for the "Exclusively Christian Theology" is to allow anyone to post here who considers themselves to be Christian and considers the Bible to be inspired by God."

I am posting in the right section.

But, the fact is, you don't consider yourself to be a Christian. Insofar as you don't consider yourself to be a Trinitarian, you don't consider yourself to be a Christian.

Since every Christian is a Trinitarian; since every Trinitarian is a Christian; since no non-, or anti-Trinitarian is a Christian; since every non-, or anti-Trinitarian is a non-Christian; and since you are an anti-Trinitarian, you are not a Christian.

You obviously do not consider yourself to be a Christian; rather, you consider yourself to be a non-Trinitarian. If you considered yourself to be a Christian, then you'd consider yourself to be a Trinitarian, and to not be a non-Trinitarian.

Ask yourself: "Do I consider myself to be a non-, or anti-Trinitarian?"

If your answer to this question is Yes, that is nothing other than you considering yourself to be a non-, or anti-Christian.

You are posting in the wrong section.
 

7djengo7

This space intentionally left blank
As I've studied the Bible I've come to disagree more and more with the Trinity. Now I'm on the cusp of openly denying it. Unfortunately, most forums actually go out of their way to prevent people from discussing the Trinity. I found it awfully surreal when I read an incomplete list of reasons why Isaac Newton was looking into the problem as well. Yet, even he couldn't discuss because most Trinitarians are murderous.

Right here, you immediately give away that you're one more lying, self-righteous anti-Christ. It's hilarious that you just said that you are murderous, but that you're "on the cusp" of not being murderous.

The Trinity is not something one can discuss in churches except to affirm it.

Elementary Christian truth you point out, non-Christian.

The second one questions it, one is thrown out.

If by "questions it", you mean "publicly airs dissent from it", or "tries to get others to dissent from it", you've got that correct! Good riddance to wolves.

So I can't really discuss it with Trinitarians since they refuse to do so unless I declare to be a Muslim.

Wait, so you're saying that the Trinity is something Muslims "can discuss in churches"?

That was your complaint, no? That one can't "discuss" the Trinity "in churches", unless one affirms the Trinity. So, here, you're complaining because you, an anti-Trinitarian, can't "discuss" the Trinity "in churches", because you don't affirm the Trinity, but Muslims can "discuss" the Trinity "in churches"?

You'all are welcome to convince me otherwise but I'm pretty close to completely renouncing the Trinity.

Renouncing the Trinity again? You already renounced the Trinity, in the first paragraph of your thread-starting post, you arrogant, self-righteous anti-Christ. It was no Trinitarian who wrote your thread-starting post.
 
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