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  • Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?

    Many people know about God, but how many Christians actually are converted and follow God. As Christ did at Gethsemane we must set aside all and follow Gods will. Jesus came across someone who asked this same question:
    Matthew 19:16-17
    "16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.'

    This young ruler obviously lived “a good life.” He’d convinced himself that he had “made it” in both before others and in his spiritual life. Yet, for all that, he sensed something was missing.

    Was Jesus telling the rich young ruler to do something meritorious when He told him to keep the commandments? Obviously not, for salvation is "not of works, lest any man should boast." But was Jesus telling this man plainly what the condition of salvation was? If we will enter into eternal life, what is necessary?

    What was Christ saying to the rich young ruler. Was obedience a condition or a requirement that we must meet before God can save us? If we look, Christ wanted more than obedience, Christ was showing that true obedience includes our outward deeds, but it is not just our outward deeds. True obedience is both the outward deed and the inner motive that prompts the deed.

    We see Christ get to this with the rich young ruler:
    Matthew 19:20-22
    "20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
    21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
    22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions."

    In order to be saved a person must be converted, and conversion is what makes true obedience possible. Unconverted people cannot truly obey God, they can "talk" about God, but not fully "walk" with Him. The condition or the basis for our salvation is faith. The result of our salvation is obedience. Those who aren't really converted and will be lost at the end, can’t obey. The truly converted or saved at the end, will obey.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Hobie View Post
    Many people know about God, but how many Christians actually are converted and follow God. As Christ did at Gethsemane we must set aside all and follow Gods will. Jesus came across someone who asked this same question:
    Matthew 19:16-17
    "16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.'

    This young ruler obviously lived “a good life.” He’d convinced himself that he had “made it” in both before others and in his spiritual life. Yet, for all that, he sensed something was missing.

    Was Jesus telling the rich young ruler to do something meritorious when He told him to keep the commandments? Obviously not, for salvation is "not of works, lest any man should boast." But was Jesus telling this man plainly what the condition of salvation was? If we will enter into eternal life, what is necessary?

    What was Christ saying to the rich young ruler. Was obedience a condition or a requirement that we must meet before God can save us? If we look, Christ wanted more than obedience, Christ was showing that true obedience includes our outward deeds, but it is not just our outward deeds. True obedience is both the outward deed and the inner motive that prompts the deed.

    We see Christ get to this with the rich young ruler:
    Matthew 19:20-22
    "20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
    21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
    22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions."

    In order to be saved a person must be converted, and conversion is what makes true obedience possible. Unconverted people cannot truly obey God, they can "talk" about God, but not fully "walk" with Him. The condition or the basis for our salvation is faith. The result of our salvation is obedience. Those who aren't really converted and will be lost at the end, can’t obey. The truly converted or saved at the end, will obey.
    Belief is a condition of salvation;

    ​​​​​​For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

    Comment


    • #3
      We have to believe that we have to obey this man Jesus.
      Oh how I love the Word of God!

      Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

      Comment


      • #4
        Jesus is telling me I must be able to give up all to follow Him. The rich young ruler was hanging unto earthly things and did not want to give them up.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bradley D View Post
          Jesus is telling me I must be able to give up all to follow Him. The rich young ruler was hanging unto earthly things and did not want to give them up.
          Right, we have to do what Jesus says to do.

          Jesus came to earth to tell us HOW TO have a heart that he saves.

          Who has a heart that doesn't have to be changed in any way? No one has that heart.

          We have to do what Jesus says to do to have the kind of heart he saves, which means the kind of heart that he lives in.

          Jesus isn't going to live inside with someone who doesn't repent of their sins or let alone knows what their sins are.

          We have to do what Jesus says to do to get saved.
          Oh how I love the Word of God!

          Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

          Comment


          • #6
            Romans 4

            Abraham Justified by Faith
            1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

            4Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
            7“Blessed are those
            whose transgressions are forgiven,
            whose sins are covered.
            8Blessed is the one
            whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”
            9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.



            Romans 4:25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

            Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

            Romans 5:2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

            Romans 6:2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

            Romans 6:6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,



            You don't enter that grace of having your sins paid for unless you have faith that is not dead.


            Romans 4:25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.


            Did you read that? Jesus was delivered over to death FOR OUR SINS. You don't think we have to repent of those sins?!


            Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,


            Justification used to be done by doing the old law purification works, in which circumcision was the sign.
            Now we just have to have faith that Jesus cleans us, of the sins we repent of doing.



            Romans 5:2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.



            We gain access to the grace of having our sins paid for by FAITH. Faith that is not dead gives access.



            Romans 6:2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?


            We have to acknowledge that when we come to Jesus to be saved we promise to die to sins.



            Romans 6:6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,


            You don't think you need to say or acknowledge that for when you want to be saved?



            OLD LAW JUSTIFICATION: The Burnt Offering; The Grain Offering; The Fellowship Offering; The Sin Offering; The Guilt Offering; Dietary Laws; Purification After Childbirth; Cleansing From Infectious Skin Diseases; Cleansing From Mildew; Discharges Causing Uncleanness; The Day of Atonement; Rules for Priests; The Sabbath; Firstfruits; The Passover and Unleavened Bread; Feast of Weeks; Feast of Trumpets; Feast of Tabernacles; Oil and Bread Set Before The LORD; the Sabbath Year; The Year of Jubilee; Circumcision.


            GOSPEL JUSTIFICATION: Faith that Jesus does all that cleaning and purification for us, after we do what he says to do. We have to come to him as a good little child, which is about a child ready to do anything their parent says to do. The person who wants to be saved must have a forgiving heart, forgiving all who have ever sinned against them. After confessing and repentance of your sins, the person must call on Jesus to save them.
            Oh how I love the Word of God!

            Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

            Comment


            • #7
              We MUST obey to be saved, it is a condition to our salvation.

              If Noah didn't obey God's instruction to build the ark he would not have been saved.
              If Moses didn't obey God's instruction to speak to Pharoah he would not have been saved.
              If Jonah didn't jump from the ship and obey Gods command to go to Nineveh he would not have been saved.

              God's commands are there to be obeyed. Hebrews 5:9 states:

              "..And after he [Jesus] had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him.." (Hebrews 5:9)

              Jesus became responsible to those who OBEY him, thus it implies he is NOT responsible for those who do not obey him. Hebrews 5:9 cleary shows obedience is required to obtain salvation. What was Jesus last command whilst on earth? Read Matthew 28:19,20 "Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you." (What religion on earth is the only one doing a global preaching work and obeying this command?)

              To call Jesus Lord and yet not obeying him causes Jesus to rejected you. Jesus himself said “Why, then, do you call me ‘Lord! Lord!’ but do not do the things I say?" (Luke 6:46)
              If you cant beat them join them

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by NWL View Post
                We MUST obey to be saved, it is a condition to our salvation.
                That's not what Paul says.

                To be sure, works were a requirement for salvation PRIOR to a certain point. But they are no longer a requirement anymore.

                If Noah didn't obey God's instruction to build the ark he would not have been saved.
                If Moses didn't obey God's instruction to speak to Pharoah he would not have been saved.
                If Jonah didn't jump from the ship and obey Gods command to go to Nineveh he would not have been saved.
                So we can safely say that all of these points in history are BEFORE the point where works are no longer required.

                God's commands are there to be obeyed.
                Was man made for the law? or the law made for man?

                Hebrews 5:9 states:

                "..And after he [Jesus] had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him.." (Hebrews 5:9)
                "Responsible"? "Cause" or "Author", perhaps, but not "responsible." I assure you there is no word "responsible" in the text. A better translation is:

                And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, - Hebrews 5:9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...p;version=NKJV

                Furthermore, could you tell me, NWL, just who exactly the Epistle to the Hebrews is written to?

                Jesus became responsible to those who OBEY him, thus it implies he is NOT responsible for those who do not obey him.
                This is a red herring based off of a false premise. Stay focused.

                Hebrews 5:9 clearly shows obedience is required to obtain salvation.
                Again, who exactly was the Epistle to the Hebrews written to?

                What was Jesus last command whilst on earth? Read Matthew 28:19,20 "Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you."
                Agreed. But maybe instead of leaving it at that, you could also tell us who Jesus was speaking to?

                What religion on earth is the only one doing a global preaching work and obeying this command?)
                What does this have to do with anything?

                To call Jesus Lord and yet not obeying him causes Jesus to rejected you.
                Do you ignore Paul because you think that his writings shouldn't be in the Bible? Or did you just forget that Paul said the following?

                In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. - Ephesians 1:13-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...p;version=NKJV

                Was Paul right or wrong?

                Jesus himself said “Why, then, do you call me ‘Lord! Lord!’ but do not do the things I say?" (Luke 6:46)
                Who was Jesus speaking to?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                  To be sure, works were a requirement for salvation PRIOR to a certain point. But they are no longer a requirement anymore.
                  Could you give me an example of this?

                  "Responsible"? "Cause" or "Author", perhaps, but not "responsible." I assure you there is no word "responsible" in the text. A better translation is:

                  And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, - Hebrews 5:9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...p;version=NKJV
                  Why does it matter whether the Greek term "aitios" means author, responsible or cause, the point I was making and the verse shows is that Jesus being the source/author or the one responsible for salvation is open to the ones who obey, as the scripture states. As you quoted Jesus"became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey him". My point still stands, to obtain salvation through Jesus we must obey.

                  Furthermore, could you tell me, NWL, just who exactly the Epistle to the Hebrews is written to?
                  To the Hebrews, why does this change anything, are you trying to imply the understanding of Hebrews 5:9 only applies to the Jewish Christians?


                  Originally posted by NWL
                  Jesus became responsible to those who OBEY him, thus it implies he is NOT responsible for those who do not obey him.
                  This is a red herring based off of a false premise. Stay focused.
                  The first part of my above sentence is a paraphrase of Hebrews 5:9, the latter half is a basic deduction of the said comment and verse, hardly a red herring. I would say your claim that I made a red herring is a red herring, furthermore, what exactly am I meant to stay focused on, you've only just engaged in conversation with me, what point have I drifted from? smh


                  Agreed. But maybe instead of leaving it at that, you could also tell us who Jesus was speaking to?
                  Explain to me why it matters who Jesus was speaking to? If the command was to make disciples and intruct those newly made disciples to obey all the things he Jesus commanded including the command to make more disciples this encompasses everyone and anyone, so explain to me why it matters who Jesus was speaking to?


                  What does this have to do with anything?
                  nothing, hence why I stuck it in brackets.

                  Do you ignore Paul because you think that his writings shouldn't be in the Bible? Or did you just forget that Paul said the following?

                  In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. - Ephesians 1:13-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...p;version=NKJV

                  Was Paul right or wrong?
                  He was right, but reading the text on face value as you are makes you wrong. Let's do a thought experiment, If there's a bodybuilder and a young man approaches him and says "what must I do t get muscle and to the size you are" and the bodybuilder replies "you have to go to the gym, sleep and eat the right foods" would you say the bodybuilder was correct or incorrect?

                  Who was Jesus speaking to?
                  Tell me why it matters.
                  Last edited by NWL; December 21st, 2019, 03:43 AM.
                  If you cant beat them join them

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Hobie View Post
                    Many people know about God, but how many Christians actually are converted and follow God. As Christ did at Gethsemane we must set aside all and follow Gods will. Jesus came across someone who asked this same question:
                    Matthew 19:16-17
                    "16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
                    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.'

                    This young ruler obviously lived “a good life.” He’d convinced himself that he had “made it” in both before others and in his spiritual life. Yet, for all that, he sensed something was missing.

                    Was Jesus telling the rich young ruler to do something meritorious when He told him to keep the commandments? Obviously not, for salvation is "not of works, lest any man should boast."
                    How did you turn that around?
                    Jesus said 'good' when the rich man said he obeyed the commandments.

                    The part that no longer requires works is being purified.
                    The old law used to require purification works that the Jews used to have to do to purify themselves.
                    THOSE works no longer do anything because now Jesus does the purifying.

                    Originally posted by Hobie View Post

                    But was Jesus telling this man plainly what the condition of salvation was? If we will enter into eternal life, what is necessary?

                    What was Christ saying to the rich young ruler. Was obedience a condition or a requirement that we must meet before God can save us? If we look, Christ wanted more than obedience, Christ was showing that true obedience includes our outward deeds, but it is not just our outward deeds. True obedience is both the outward deed and the inner motive that prompts the deed.
                    EVERYTHING Jesus tells us to do IS to be obeyed.
                    How do you get that Jesus wanted more than obedience? That is illogical.

                    Originally posted by Hobie View Post
                    We see Christ get to this with the rich young ruler:
                    Matthew 19:20-22
                    "20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
                    21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
                    22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions."

                    In order to be saved a person must be converted, and conversion is what makes true obedience possible. Unconverted people cannot truly obey God, they can "talk" about God, but not fully "walk" with Him. The condition or the basis for our salvation is faith. The result of our salvation is obedience. Those who aren't really converted and will be lost at the end, can’t obey. The truly converted or saved at the end, will obey.
                    You are speaking strangely when you say unconverted people cannot truly obey God.

                    Obeying God is how we are saved and converted.

                    God in the flesh was in front of the rich man. What an amazing happening, like no other ever. The rich man did not want to give up his wealth and follow Jesus in his earthly ministry. God was right there in front of him. He did not want to join Jesus’ earthly ministry and travel and preach the most important message ever.

                    We are not all told to leave our homes and give everything away to become traveling ministers. That is nonsense taught by people with no understanding.

                    Can you imagine Paul preaching to the church of the Ephesians, Galatians, and Corinthians that they had to give away everything they owned and become traveling disciples? There would not be churches in the New Testament for Paul to write too! For the houses of the believers were the churches. No one would be there for Paul to write too and visit, for they would all have no homes, and all would be gone doing traveling ministries.

                    If everyone gave their home to the poor in order to do right, then what shall the poor do who received your home? So you see, giving away all you have and following Jesus was about his earthly ministry and those who would help him lay the foundation.

                    Jesus knows everyone’s heart and knew the rich man thought more of his earthly riches than God who was standing right there in front of him.
                    Last edited by God's Truth; January 3rd, 2020, 01:57 PM.
                    Oh how I love the Word of God!

                    Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by NWL View Post
                      Could you give me an example of this?
                      Of what?

                      Why does it matter whether the Greek term "aitios" means author, responsible or cause, the point I was making and the verse shows is that Jesus being the source/author or the one responsible for salvation is open to the ones who obey, as the scripture states.
                      Then why did Paul contradict that?

                      But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, - Romans 4:5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...5&version=NKJV

                      As you quoted Jesus"became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey him". My point still stands, to obtain salvation through Jesus we must obey.
                      Again, then why did Paul contradict that?

                      To the Hebrews,
                      So then why are you reading someone else's mail and responding to it as if you were the one addressed?

                      Seems pretty illogical, to me.

                      Or do you think that you're a Jew, and if so, please state for the record which of the 12 tribes you are from or part of.

                      why does this change anything, are you trying to imply the understanding of Hebrews 5:9 only applies to the Jewish Christians?
                      Rather, Hebrews 5:9 applies to, you guessed it, the Hebrews.

                      Israel was given a works-based method of salvation that was undergirded by grace.

                      Hebrews is consistent with that.

                      You're trying to apply it to Christians, who are NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, and who, with Paul being the first, are saved by grace through faith, and NOT of works.

                      Explain to me why it matters who Jesus was speaking to?
                      Tell me why you think that applying that which only applies to Jews to Gentiles would be logical.

                      If the command was to make disciples and intruct those newly made disciples to obey all the things he Jesus commanded including the command to make more disciples this encompasses everyone and anyone,
                      I'm going to use this as part of my question to you:

                      If [the above], then WHY DID NONE OF THE DISCIPLES TO WHOM JESUS COMMANDED SUCH DO WHAT HE TOLD THEM TO DO?!

                      In fact, they even said they wouldn't (Galatians 2:7-9), and agreed to let Paul do it instead, in direct opposition to what Christ told them to do, while they remained in Jerusalem for most of the rest of their lives!

                      And Paul did it only AFTER confronting the 12 to correct their thinking after he was given a different doctrine entirely!

                      so explain to me why it matters who Jesus was speaking to?
                      If a general in a military tells Squad A at 0800 hours to dig a trench, and then at 1700 tells Squad B to escort him to the nearest military base, do you think Squad B would be wise to dig a trench?

                      No?

                      Then why do you think that the Body of Christ (Squad B) should do what Christ (the General) told the NATION of Israel (Squad A)?

                      He was right,
                      Then why do you ignore it?

                      but reading the text on face value as you are makes you wrong.
                      Because you say so?

                      I asked:
                      Did you just forget that Paul said the following?

                      In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. - Ephesians 1:13-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...p;version=NKJV
                      Taking what Paul said at face value?

                      Those who trust in Christ, who put their faith in Him, are SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, and are GUARANTEED an inheritance.

                      Past tense. Not future.

                      We are saved the moment we accept Christ as our Savior.

                      That's not what Christ and the Twelve said to the Jews.

                      Israel (PRIOR to Paul's conversion) had to work AND believe, and if they did not follow the law to the letter, the greater AND the lesser laws, they would be CUT OFF!

                      James said:

                      You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. - James 2:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...4&version=NKJV

                      In direct opposition to what Paul said:

                      But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, - Romans 4:5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...5&version=NKJV

                      Let's do a thought experiment, If there's a bodybuilder and a young man approaches him and says "what must I do to get muscle and to the size you are" and the bodybuilder replies "you have to go to the gym, sleep and eat the right foods" would you say the bodybuilder was correct or incorrect?
                      Here's the problem with your analogy (and with people using Paul's running a race analogy for salvation).

                      It assumes that being good enough will get the worker to heaven.

                      But there are none righteous, no not one, for all have sinned and fallen short. No one is able to work his way to heaven, because it's not possible to do so.

                      ONLY CHRIST'S COMPLETED WORK ON THE CROSS (Remember, Christ said "It is FINISHED") could pay for the sin of all mankind.

                      Paul's analogy is NOT about salvation, it's about staying faithful AFTER one is saved.

                      No bodybuilder in existence could ever remove the weight of sin from his shoulders, no matter how much he trains or works out. Only Christ can do that, and did so on the Cross. Why are you, NWL, replacing that burden back on the shoulders of those who are saved not by works, but by faith?

                      Tell me why it matters.
                      Answer the military analogy above.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post

                        That's not what Paul says.

                        To be sure, works were a requirement for salvation PRIOR to a certain point. But they are no longer a requirement anymore.



                        So we can safely say that all of these points in history are BEFORE the point where works are no longer required.



                        Was man made for the law? or the law made for man?



                        "Responsible"? "Cause" or "Author", perhaps, but not "responsible." I assure you there is no word "responsible" in the text. A better translation is:

                        And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, - Hebrews 5:9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...p;version=NKJV

                        Furthermore, could you tell me, NWL, just who exactly the Epistle to the Hebrews is written to?



                        This is a red herring based off of a false premise. Stay focused.



                        Again, who exactly was the Epistle to the Hebrews written to?



                        Agreed. But maybe instead of leaving it at that, you could also tell us who Jesus was speaking to?



                        What does this have to do with anything?



                        Do you ignore Paul because you think that his writings shouldn't be in the Bible? Or did you just forget that Paul said the following?

                        In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. - Ephesians 1:13-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...p;version=NKJV

                        Was Paul right or wrong?



                        Who was Jesus speaking to?
                        Just a caveat here: "Requirement" doesn't mean 'you have to do this' by necessity. It can mean "part of the package." Point? Jesus did for us and also has done/is doing in us, the requirements of holiness. There is no sense telling an old wine skin to 'have' new wine other than as a description of what is wrong in the first place. It leads to the Cross and consequently to becoming new, thus able to 'obey' (conform, conformed) to God's holy standards.
                        My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                        Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                        Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                        Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                        No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                        Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                        ? Yep

                        Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                        ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                        Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by NWL
                          To be sure, works were a requirement for salvation PRIOR to a certain point. But they are no longer a requirement anymore.

                          Originally posted by NWL
                          Could you give me an example of this?
                          Originally posted by JudgeRightly
                          Of what?
                          I literally highlighted what I wanted an example of, why play dumb. If you can't/don't wish to answer the question just admit so.

                          Then why did Paul contradict that?

                          But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, - Romans 4:5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...5&version=NKJV
                          Paul didn't contradict it, show me where he contradicts his statement that "obedience is required for salvation" in the bible? Romans 4:5 certainly doesn't contradict Hebrews 5:9 since Romans 4:5 is about the "works of the law", namely the commandments given in the OT to the nation of Israel

                          Again, then why did Paul contradict that?
                          Again he didn't, show me where paul contradicted his statement about general obedience as shown in Hebrews 5:9. Showing me verses about there being no requirement to adhere to the nations of Israel law since there was a new Christian congregation isn't proof.

                          So then why are you reading someone else's mail and responding to it as if you were the one addressed?
                          Are you suggesting that none of the statements or things reveled in the book of Hebrews are truth statements unless a Hebrew reads it? To think so is pure stupidity since the vast majority apart from a few books, e.g gospels, Revelation etc of the NT were written to a group of select peoples, take the book of Romans, who was that written to? The Romans! Why then did you show me a scripture from Romans if it was written to them, "why are you reading someone else's mail and [advising me with it like we are] the ones addressed?". You see how foolish your reasoning is. Pauls's statement of "he [Jesus] became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him" is relevant to all peoples and NOT just the Hebrews, hence why it says "all those obeying him" and NOT "all [Hebrews] obeying him".

                          I'm going to use this as part of my question to you:

                          If [the above], then WHY DID NONE OF THE DISCIPLES TO WHOM JESUS COMMANDED SUCH DO WHAT HE TOLD THEM TO DO?!

                          In fact, they even said they wouldn't (Galatians 2:7-9), and agreed to let Paul do it instead, in direct opposition to what Christ told them to do, while they remained in Jerusalem for most of the rest of their lives!

                          And Paul did it only AFTER confronting the 12 to correct their thinking after he was given a different doctrine entirely!
                          They DID do what he said, they simply did it indirectly. If Jesus said told the apostles "tell Ceaser and all the kings of the earth that I Jesus am King of kings" that wouldn't have restricted the apostles to having to personally tell each and every king themselves in person, they could do it by means of messenger or letters or other means. Likewise, the fact the apostles remained local despite the command "make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit" doesn't necessitate that the apostles be the ones literally going out to all the nations and literally baptizing every single person who wanted to be Christian, such a thought is absurd! They accomplished what Jesus said by setting up the Christian congregation locally and spreading the message further through others. This is basic and cleary evidenced in scripture.

                          Originally posted by NWL
                          Explain to me why it matters who Jesus was speaking to? If the command was to make disciples and intruct those newly made disciples to obey all the things he Jesus commanded including the command to make more disciples this encompasses everyone and anyone, so explain to me why it matters who Jesus was speaking to?

                          Originally posted by JudgeRightly
                          If a general in a military tells Squad A at 0800 hours to dig a trench, and then at 1700 tells Squad B to escort him to the nearest military base, do you think Squad B would be wise to dig a trench?

                          No?

                          Then why do you think that the Body of Christ (Squad B) should do what Christ (the General) told the NATION of Israel (Squad A)?
                          Your question makes little sense. Matthews 28:18 was a command to the apostles as I said in my initial post, why then do you say "why do you think that the Body of Christ (Squad B) should do what Christ (the General) told the NATION[ of Israel (Squad A)?

                          The command to preach (Matt 28:28) was to the apostles, why then are you bringing a second group into the matter? When have I claimed the apostles/body of Christ should do what christ told the nations of Israel for you to ask "why then do you say "why do you think that the Body of Christ (Squad B) should do what Christ (the General) told the NATION[ of Israel (Squad A)?

                          Please rephrase the question or explain how what you are asking makes sense.

                          Then why do you ignore it?
                          I didn't ignore what was said, I clearly gave an illustration and asked you a question show it should be clear I'm attempting to answer the question, you are refusing to answer my question though so I'll just ask it again:

                          If there's a bodybuilder and a young man approaches him and says "what must I do t get muscle and to the size you are" and the bodybuilder replies "you have to go to the gym, sleep and eat the right foods" would you say the bodybuilder was correct or incorrect?


                          Here's the problem with your analogy (and with people using Paul's running a race analogy for salvation).
                          I don't even think you know the reason why I gave an analogy for you to claim there is an issue with it. How about you answer the question I posed and then we can see if there is an issue with my analogy.

                          Again, if there's a bodybuilder and a young man approaches him and says "what must I do t get muscle and to the size you are" and the bodybuilder replies "you have to go to the gym, sleep and eat the right foods" would you say the bodybuilder was correct or incorrect?
                          Last edited by NWL; January 11th, 2020, 03:19 AM.
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