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THE APOSTLES DID NOT PREACH THE SAME GOSPEL

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  • Theo102
    replied
    Originally posted by thborn View Post
    Salvation by faith does not exclude ideals of justice and perfection and a deep theology; in fact, in the proper teaching, it supports justice and perfection.
    That would depend on whether on not what you had faith in was consistent with those ideals.

    Originally posted by thborn View Post
    However, there are those who do seek to ignore vast sections of holy scripture and a call to holiness which seem to me to be essential to the central message of faith in Jesus. Perhaps this sort of thinking has pushed you in a certain direction?
    Ignoring text that doesn't agree with your beliefs is a lot like cherry-picking the facts that don't disrupt your model of the world. It's not a great strategy if you want to be rational about it.

    Originally posted by thborn View Post
    Undoubtedly, Jesus' offering up of His Blood and His sacrifice have great resonance in terms of the covenantal (is that a word? I thought it was) language of the Bible.
    In the original context of the covenant the blood was symbolic, and sacrifice was repudiated by several of the prophets:

    But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
    Matthew 9:13

    For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.
    Hosea 6:6

    For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
    Psalm 51:16

    Will YHWH be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
    Micah 6:7

    Originally posted by thborn View Post
    Thanks for the scripture passages above and giving me the opportunity to familiarize myself with these. Got to get back to my New Testament tonight or tomorrow.
    You're welcome.

    Originally posted by thborn View Post
    I feel that the line you are taking is quite divisive, and divisions can be a grave matter, but I will hold back for now.
    Fair enough. I think it's always better to follow where the evidence leads.

    Originally posted by thborn View Post
    May God bless you.
    May your path be a narrow one.

    Leave a comment:


  • thborn
    replied
    Originally posted by Theo102 View Post
    It doesn't disagree with what you wrote. What I'm looking at is the difference between a faith-based approach to salvation and a theologicial approach, particularly regarding the ideals of justice and perfection which are present in the sermon on the mount.
    Salvation by faith does not exclude ideals of justice and perfection and a deep theology; in fact, in the proper teaching, it supports justice and perfection.

    However, there are those who do seek to ignore vast sections of holy scripture and a call to holiness which seem to me to be essential to the central message of faith in Jesus. Perhaps this sort of thinking has pushed you in a certain direction?

    Undoubtedly, Jesus' offering up of His Blood and His sacrifice have great resonance in terms of the covenantal (is that a word? I thought it was) language of the Bible.

    Thanks for the scripture passages above and giving me the opportunity to familiarize myself with these. Got to get back to my New Testament tonight or tomorrow.

    I feel that the line you are taking is quite divisive, and divisions can be a grave matter, but I will hold back for now.

    May God bless you.

    Leave a comment:


  • Theo102
    replied
    Originally posted by thborn View Post
    I'm not sure where you're going with this, but please explain more. Do you mean that Matthew 5:48 "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect" does not agree with what I wrote above?
    It doesn't disagree with what you wrote. What I'm looking at is the difference between a faith-based approach to salvation and a theologicial approach, particularly regarding the ideals of justice and perfection which are present in the sermon on the mount.

    Originally posted by thborn View Post
    Every Christian probably finds the sermon on the mount beautiful and challenging, too. The blood of Christ washes away all the sins of all those who prove to be among God's elect. Christ's work here is perfect, is it not?
    There's a symbolic aspect to the blood of the last supper, which is represented by wine:

    For this is my blood of the new testament(diatheke), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
    But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
    Matthew 26:26-27

    Diatheke means covenant. The're also symbolism relating to the practice and consent of the people of the covenant:

    And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that YHWH hath said will we do, and be obedient.
    And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which YHWH hath made with you concerning all these words.
    Exodus 24:7-8

    The law of the old covenant relates to the law of the new covenant:

    Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith YHWH:
    But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their Elohim, and they shall be my people.
    Jeremiah 31:31-33


    Originally posted by thborn View Post
    I am not greatly familiar with comparisons of Jonah's experience with the death and Resurrection of Jesus. Someone with greater learning than I will have to comment here.

    Here's the text that relates the sign of Jonah to the crucifixion, for which the law is not relevant:

    Matthew 12
    38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
    39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
    40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
    41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
    42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.


    And here's the text that relates the sign of Jonah to repentance, for which the law is relevant:

    Luke 11
    29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
    30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
    31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
    32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

    Jonah 3
    3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of YHWH. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey.
    4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
    5 So the people of Nineveh believed Elohim, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
    10 And Elohim saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and Elohim repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

    Leave a comment:


  • dodge
    replied
    Galatians 1:23 proves that mad is wrong about Paul being the first to preach the mystery if you can receive it.Gal.1:23 says Paul preached what he tried to destroy. Sorry Madist cannot change God’s word to placate their idol Galatians1:23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.

    Leave a comment:


  • thborn
    replied
    Originally posted by Theo102 View Post
    One of the teachings from the sermon of the mount was of perfection, which in the context of repentance involves an complete understanding of the law.
    I'm not sure where you're going with this, but please explain more. Do you mean that Matthew 5:48 "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect" does not agree with what I wrote above? Every Christian probably finds the sermon on the mount beautiful and challenging, too. The blood of Christ washes away all the sins of all those who prove to be among God's elect. Christ's work here is perfect, is it not? So at the time when God's grace is poured out on a sinner and they truly turn to Christ, there is a sort of perfection. I would say this perfection also encompasses the future spiritual growth of that believer as (s)he grows in faith, remains in Christ, and practices works of kindness...since I think that shows who is truly among God's children.

    1 Thessalonians 3:13 May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones. Ephesians 1:4: For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

    Do you have another way of relating the concept of perfection to the Scripture that comes after the sermon on the mount?

    Originally posted by Theo102 View Post
    The sign of Jonah that alludes to a resurrection of sorts isn't consistent with the historical timeline, i.e. three days and nights is not one day and two nights.
    I am not greatly familiar with comparisons of Jonah's experience with the death and Resurrection of Jesus. Someone with greater learning than I will have to comment here.

    Leave a comment:


  • Theo102
    replied
    Originally posted by thborn View Post
    By the time we get to Paul, I don't see any difference in terms of what a Jew or a Gentile from anywhere on earth needs to do in order to be saved...listen to the Word, repent, call on the name of Jesus, believe in one's heart that Jesus rose from the dead and is Lord, which, if one really believes it, leads towards a holy life and kindness to others.
    One of the teachings from the sermon of the mount was of perfection, which in the context of repentance involves an complete understanding of the law.
    The sign of Jonah that alludes to a resurrection of sorts isn't consistent with the historical timeline, i.e. three days and nights is not one day and two nights.

    Leave a comment:


  • thborn
    replied
    Originally posted by DougE View Post
    Ephesians 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

    The mystery of the gospel was revealed first to Paul.

    Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

    16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

    Paul and the twelve Apostles preached Christ. Paul preached Christ according to the mystery and the scriptures of the prophets. The twelve did not preach Christ according to the mystery.
    I agree thoroughly that the message of the Apostles is not complete or at least not fully explained until one comes to the teachings of Paul (to the degree that God 'fully' explains anything to mere mortals, especially in this life!) I also believe that the Word of God in the Gospels and Paul's Epistles cannot be conflict...though obviously there are differences in audience, emphasis, etc. And I believe that there is a correct understanding which is the final Truth. By the time we get to Paul, I don't see any difference in terms of what a Jew or a Gentile from anywhere on earth needs to do in order to be saved...listen to the Word, repent, call on the name of Jesus, believe in one's heart that Jesus rose from the dead and is Lord, which, if one really believes it, leads towards a holy life and kindness to others. (Correct me if if I have the order wrong, and, yes, it seems there must be a baptism of some sort in there somewhere). If some of my statements are too obvious, I am only trying to establish common ground before I really dig into what you are saying in this thread about definitions of God's Kingdom, prophecies and future events (Initially, these strike me as unessential and perhaps overly divisive, though I am open to listening, while calling upon God to guard me and lead me to Truth.)

    Until a short time ago, so much of much of Paul's message was unfortunately not brought to my attention despite being a professed Christian for years. Thanks be to God for bringing it to my attention and leading to me to read His Word with less preconceived notions in my prideful head. Certainly a Christian is a person who loves the Word of God, whether it is found in the teachings of Jesus or of Paul. And of course it is all Jesus, because He is the word of God. Am I correct in my phrasing and understanding there?

    Leave a comment:


  • Theo102
    replied
    Originally posted by bibleverse2 View Post
    The New Covenant includes Gentile Christians by grafting them into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16).
    Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith YHWH:
    But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their Elohim, and they shall be my people.

    Jeremiah 31:31-33

    Leave a comment:


  • God's Truth
    replied
    Originally posted by Child of God View Post

    So you REJECT the Miracles of the Bible, as they can not be supported by the the relevant evidence? Correct?

    I just figured we should get this out in the open.

    YOU REJECT the Miracles of the Bible as they can not be Supported by your Relevant Evidence?

    CORRECT?

    It kind of sounds Atheist. PROVE GOD DID THIS.

    You REJECT those things in the Bible that can not be PROVEN according to your parameters.


    THAT IS WHAT YOU JUST SAID.
    Show the post where such things are said. You are dishonest.

    Leave a comment:


  • God's Truth
    replied
    Originally posted by Child of God View Post

    Yet you disagree with my last two post, and provide no Scripture to prove me wrong.

    Your OPINION is noted, there is and old saying about opinions, everyone has them and the not noted , and they both stink.

    Please use SCRIPTURE to disprove what I am Saying.

    Not just your OPINION.

    Are you now claiming that the Scriptures CONTRADICT the RELEVANT EVIDENCE?

    Jesus, Raised someone from the Dead?

    This is DISPROVED by the Relevant Evidence. This is your claim?

    You go deeper as you cling to Paul.

    REPENT, let go of the anchor that is taking you to Hell.
    Swim Upwards Towards the Light.
    You speak strangely. You say Jesus didn't raise anyone from the dead? This is disproved? It is my claim? You aren't supposed to just make up things about others.

    Leave a comment:


  • God's Truth
    replied
    Originally posted by Child of God View Post


    How is it that YOU DIE by going through Jesus?

    Is there a ritual?
    DO you actual Die?

    Is it just Magic Words you say?

    You say the MAGIC WORDS, and POOF you have been reborn.
    Containing all the old prejudices of your before reborn life?

    NO you must actually CHANGE your life.
    You do it by repenting of your sins and promising to die to the sins of the world and live for Jesus.


    Romans 6:2 By no means! How can we who died to sin live in it any longer?

    Romans 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.

    Romans 6: 11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

    Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

    Galatians 5:16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

    Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave

    Colossians 2:20 If you have died with Christ to the spiritual forces of the world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its regulations:

    Colossians 3:3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

    1 Peter 2:24 He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. "By His stripes you are healed."

    Luke 13:3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

    Acts 3:19 Therefore repent and turn back so that your sins may be wiped out,

    1 Thessalonians 4:1 As for other matters, brothers and sisters, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more.

    Leave a comment:


  • God's Truth
    replied
    Originally posted by Child of God View Post

    You are so wrong.

    Jesus Brings LIFE, an LIFE more abundantly.

    You have some doctrine you have to DIE to self, in order to Live for God.

    This is a false doctrine.

    Who ever taught you this Doctrine was adding things to confound you.

    All you have to do is is Fulfill the Greatest and Second Commandment.

    I Choose Yeshua as my Lawyer if I am wrong.





    How is it that YOU DIE by going through Jesus?

    Is there a ritual?
    DO you actual Die?

    Is it just Magic Words you say?

    You say the MAGIC WORDS, and POOF you have been reborn.
    Containing all the old prejudices of your before reborn life?

    NO you must actually CHANGE your life.
    We die to the sins of the world with Christ on the cross, and then we raise up to a new life as a new creation as we live to please the Lord.

    Leave a comment:


  • Child of God
    replied
    Repent.

    You believe in God, believe also in me.

    Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

    Leave a comment:


  • Child of God
    replied
    Originally posted by God's Truth View Post

    What you say is contradicted by relevant evidence.
    So you REJECT the Miracles of the Bible, as they can not be supported by the the relevant evidence? Correct?

    I just figured we should get this out in the open.

    YOU REJECT the Miracles of the Bible as they can not be Supported by your Relevant Evidence?

    CORRECT?

    It kind of sounds Atheist. PROVE GOD DID THIS.

    You REJECT those things in the Bible that can not be PROVEN according to your parameters.


    THAT IS WHAT YOU JUST SAID.
    Last edited by Child of God; December 9th, 2019, 07:36 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Child of God
    replied
    Originally posted by God's Truth View Post

    What you say is contradicted by relevant evidence.
    Yet you disagree with my last two post, and provide no Scripture to prove me wrong.

    Your OPINION is noted, there is and old saying about opinions, everyone has them and the not noted , and they both stink.

    Please use SCRIPTURE to disprove what I am Saying.

    Not just your OPINION.

    Are you now claiming that the Scriptures CONTRADICT the RELEVANT EVIDENCE?

    Jesus, Raised someone from the Dead?

    This is DISPROVED by the Relevant Evidence. This is your claim?

    You go deeper as you cling to Paul.

    REPENT, let go of the anchor that is taking you to Hell.
    Swim Upwards Towards the Light.

    Leave a comment:

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