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THE APOSTLES DID NOT PREACH THE SAME GOSPEL

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  • God's Truth
    replied
    Originally posted by Theo102 View Post
    Yes.


    No, Paul didn't distinguish between what he wrote and what the Chruch fathers didn't include.
    In context it means the same as the previous verse since there's nothing there to change the meaning.



    So are the Gnostic texts and the Quran.



    That's ambiguous.


    Of course. In context it's a warning about him.
    The Old Testament is about prophecies; the New Testament is prophecies fulfilled and explained.

    The Old Testament was about Jesus.

    Jesus came and fulfilled the scriptures; and he taught the Way in which was prophesied to be the way to be saved.

    Paul spoke about the Old Testament many times to the Jews and Gentiles, explaining the same things that Jesus did.

    Paul quoted Old Testament over a hundred times in just the letters we have from Paul in the Bible.




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  • Theo102
    replied
    Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
    ...old testament scriptures.
    Yes.

    Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
    ...old testament scriptures AND NEW testament scriptures.
    No, Paul didn't distinguish between what he wrote and what the Chruch fathers didn't include.
    In context it means the same as the previous verse since there's nothing there to change the meaning.


    Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
    The gospels are scriptures.
    So are the Gnostic texts and the Quran.


    Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
    You were given scriptures that say they are scriptures.
    That's ambiguous.

    Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
    That isn't a warning to Paul.
    Of course. In context it's a warning about him.

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  • God's Truth
    replied
    Originally posted by Theo102 View Post

    And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures,
    ...old testament scriptures.
    Originally posted by Theo102 View Post

    which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    2 Timothy 3:16
    ...old testament scriptures AND NEW testament scriptures.

    Originally posted by Theo102 View Post
    In context Paul is talking about the texts that predated the gospels.
    The gospels are scriptures.

    You were given scriptures that say they are scriptures.

    Originally posted by Theo102 View Post

    "The Bible is true because the Bible says that it is true" is circular reasoning.
    There is a way to know.

    Do you want to find out how to know?

    Originally posted by Theo102 View Post

    Peter's endorsement of Paul should also be considered in context, i.e. Paul's warning.

    Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
    John 21:18
    That isn't a warning to Paul. Prove it that it is. Paul wasn't even an apostle yet.

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  • Theo102
    replied
    Originally posted by God's Truth View Post

    Everything in the Bible is God breathed and scripture.

    What Paul wrote is scripture:

    2 Peter 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
    And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    2 Timothy 3:16

    In context Paul is talking about the texts that predated the gospels.

    "The Bible is true because the Bible says that it is true" is circular reasoning.

    Peter's endorsement of Paul should also be considered in context, i.e. Paul's warning.

    Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
    John 21:18

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  • God's Truth
    replied
    Originally posted by Theo102 View Post

    Scripture isn't part of the new covenant.

    But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their Elohim, and they shall be my people.
    Jeremiah 31:33
    Everything in the Bible is God breathed and scripture.

    What Paul wrote is scripture:

    2 Peter 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

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  • Theo102
    replied
    Originally posted by thborn View Post
    I have the ability to make up many religion I want, or follow any religion I want. But if a person is among God's elect, they will not. They will follow Scripture revealed by God. (Of course, there is the question of how one defines that. But the warnings for failing to identify holy scripture or to add or take away from it are clear.)
    Scripture isn't part of the new covenant.

    But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their Elohim, and they shall be my people.
    Jeremiah 31:33

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  • thborn
    replied
    Originally posted by Theo102 View Post
    What is obvious isn't necessarily true, for example man going to the moon. The short story is that the technical challenges (especially the hazard posed by the van Allen radiation) could not be overcome by NASA in the sixties, so their elites faked it rather than admit defeat. One of the proofs is that there's no hypergolic flame evident for the ascent stage leaving the lunar module, another is the short communications response time.

    The idea of a free gift is first expressed as a light to the Gentiles, which is associated with the idea of judgement (Isaiah 42:1-6); i.e. there's no such thing as a free lunch.

    The idea of constancy is expressed here:

    For I am YHWH, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
    Malachai 3:6

    One of the qualities of YHWH is justice/righteousness:

    For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.
    Palm 11:7

    Tying together the ideas of justice and judgment, the inconsistency between that and the idea of an innocent man being crucified as part of a divine plan is pretty stark. Adding the repudiation of sacrifice by the prophets and the alternative expression of the sign relating to the crucifixion, there's grounds for testing the idea that the crucifixion isn't what it seemed to be, IMO.
    I have the ability to make up many religion I want, or follow any religion I want. But if a person is among God's elect, they will not. They will follow Scripture revealed by God. (Of course, there is the question of how one defines that. But the warnings for failing to identify holy scripture or to add or take away from it are clear.)

    I'm rather existentialist. I'm not so much into head knowledge or head logic. Relationships are what matter to me, connections with pets, people, persons I long to see face to face. I want to follow Jesus. I want a closer kinship there. So I'm going to hold onto what has been written about him that has moved so many other people... even if many of those people have not been moved in such a way as to have eternal life.

    I agree, there is no free lunch. But.. Exodus, 9:15 "I show mercy to whom I show mercy" Romans 33:19: "I show mercy to whom I show mercy"

    Often in this life I am disgusted by the world, the bodily, disgusted by human governments and isms. I see myself as a lowly worm. The only way I could be made right with God is by something that defies everyday, straightforward human thinking.

    This does not mean that God's mercy replaces justice and judgment. And of course, the great failing of many so-called Christians over the centuries to act with justice and righteousness must be condemned by believers.

    As to the prophets repudiating sacrifices, doesn't this refer to the Israelite's sacrifices? The ordinary people? I'm talking about something God did.

    Christ's sacrifice abolishes all other sacrifice, and He is not offered up again and again. It is a sacrifice but also a demonstration, an invitation.

    As to the injustice of condemning an innocent man, let's not forget that Christ was willing to die for us.

    The Scriptures Christians have inherited form a longer body of writing than in many other faiths. People have come up with a ton of different ways to reconcile hundreds chapters detailing many stages of tradition. Please make sure you are not trying to reevaluate God's Word without God.






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  • thborn
    replied
    Originally posted by DougE View Post
    The twelve Apostles were not preaching the same gospel as Paul, but rather the gospel of the kingdom, which Paul never preached.

    It is imperative to believe the gospel that was given to us and be justified unto eternal life.
    Yes, at least to the second, certainly. I have a lot of catching up to do, having not grown up really with teachers who talked about dispensationalism or the big ideas in Pauline theology or the details of the end times (which I realize are important to understand, as much as the average person can...Revelation 22:7 "Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book.") My mind is reeling a bit from having to change my opinions a lot in only a short time...

    This is what I've gleaned from reading in this thread. The Kingdom is in heaven. It is in the hearts of those believers who are in the Body of Christ according to the mystery as preached by Paul. It was in the hearts of some who believed Jesus while he preached. A form of the kingdom will exist on the earth, to be ruled by Christ and certain of the Jews, in the future. I'm not sure which earth this necessarily is, but I am open to suggestion. Aside from these manifestations, the Kingdom will exist forever, for all Jews and Gentiles who are justified.

    Paul says new things in his epistles. These are perfectly in line with what Christ taught (John 3:18 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." (NIV) Paul explained further what is said here (that nobody at this time has to follow the bulk of the law's regulations) and further spelled out doctrines of faith, the elect, and Christian kindness.

    Peter and Paul do not seem to have preached the exact message regarding every regulation (luckily I am virtually a vegetarian and don't normally have to worry about how meat has been slaughtered). So, at least in some sense, Paul's message IS different.

    But are you saying that the message Jesus preached during the few years of His earthly ministry did still at that point include all the regulations of the law? If so, I am open to the teaching (unless I am forgetting a line of Scripture that clearly denies this, and if this can be reconciled with the quote from John above). However, that would seem not to be very relevant to us, especially if the end times have not truly begun yet? Please help me out if you think I'm going off the rails at any point...I am not sure about some things yet.

    May God bless you in every way through His Son Our Lord Jesus Christ.









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  • Theo102
    replied
    Originally posted by oatmeal View Post

    Wonderful!

    How do you see that relating to the mystery being his in God?
    The phrase "mystery of the kingdom of God" associates with the parables of the kingdom of heaven, which in turn relates to the wisdom sayings of the gnostic gospel of Thomas. Gnosis of course means knowledge, which suggests that the following verses:

    And out of the ground made YHWH Elohim to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
    Genesis 2:9

    Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.
    Samuel 2:3

    But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
    Matthew 9:13

    But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
    Matthew 12:7

    For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of אלהים (Elohim) more than burnt offerings.
    Hosea 6:6

    My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy אלהיך, I will also forget thy children.
    Hosea 4:6

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  • oatmeal
    replied
    Originally posted by Theo102 View Post

    That the purpose of the parables was both to convey information and to keep secrets.
    Wonderful!

    How do you see that relating to the mystery being his in God?

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  • Theo102
    replied
    Originally posted by oatmeal View Post

    Thanks for the scripture.

    What is your point?
    That the purpose of the parables was both to convey information and to keep secrets.

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  • oatmeal
    replied
    Originally posted by Theo102 View Post

    And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
    That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
    Mark 4:11-12

    And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
    Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
    Isaiah 6:9-10
    Thanks for the scripture.

    What is your point?

    Leave a comment:


  • Theo102
    replied
    Originally posted by oatmeal View Post
    As the mystery was being revealed progressively, it was not all assimilated and preached simultaneously is certain.
    And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
    That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
    Mark 4:11-12

    And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
    Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
    Isaiah 6:9-10

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  • oatmeal
    replied
    Originally posted by DougE View Post
    Ephesians 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

    The mystery of the gospel was revealed first to Paul.

    Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

    16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

    Paul and the twelve Apostles preached Christ. Paul preached Christ according to the mystery and the scriptures of the prophets. The twelve did not preach Christ according to the mystery.

    Paul claims the gospel as being "my gospel", which distinguishes it from all others. Paul states his gospel was according to the mystery. The mystery was kept secret until revealed to Paul, which means the twelve Apostles could not have known it.

    Paul's gospel is now made manifest.

    Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

    Paul was an Apostle to the Gentiles.

    3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

    God clearly states that there are dispensations. We are in the dispensation of the grace of God. Gentiles can now be saved freely, along with Jews, without the law and covenants. Gentiles no longer are seperated from Israel. Gentiles no longer have to come to God through Israel.

    3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

    Jesus revealed the mystery to Paul.

    3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

    3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

    3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

    The church, the body of Christ was revealed first to Paul.

    Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

    1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

    The mystery was hid even from the twelve disciples, but was made manifest to us by Paul.

    Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

    18:32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

    18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

    18:34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

    Paul's gospel includes the death, burial, and the resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). The twelve Apostles had no understanding of any of this according to Luke 18:34, even when Jesus told them of his death and resurrection in Luke 18:33 and in fact, it was hid from them. The twelve Apostles could not have been preaching the same gospel as Paul.

    Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

    Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

    1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


    Jesus was preaching the gospel of the promised Davidic kingdom (Luke 1:32).

    Luke 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

    9:2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

    9:6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.

    The twelve Apostles were not preaching the same gospel as Paul, but rather the gospel of the kingdom, which Paul never preached.

    It is imperative to believe the gospel that was given to us and be justified unto eternal life.

    The gospel has been progressively revealed throughout scripture. Those that believed the gospel revealed in their dispensations, believed God, and were justified unto eternal life (Romans 4:3). If you only believe that the kingdom is at hand (Mark 1:15), as preached by the twelve, you are lost. If you only believe in the name of Jesus, as preached by the twelve, that he is the Christ, the Son of God (John 20:31), you are lost. If you only believe you should repent and be baptized (Acts 2:38), as preached by the twelve, you are lost. If you only believe the gospels of the twelve Apostles you are lost.

    The gospel given us in this dispensation is only found in the epistles of Paul; examples being Romans 3:19-26 and 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
    As the mystery was being revealed progressively, it was not all assimilated and preached simultaneously is certain.

    We do read that Peter spoke of Paul's wisdom in referring to Paul's epistles.

    II Peter 3:15-16

    15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

    16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

    Clearly, Peter, for one, was well aware of the content's of Paul's epistles and recognized the wisdom given to him.

    The apostles who cared to learn from Paul and the others who received the revelation of the mystery did not contradict Paul, and if they carried out their responsibility to God and His son Jesus Christ, the head of the body, they would have adhered to and taught what God revealed to Paul and others about the mystery.

    Paul makes it very clear that the mystery was revealed not only to himself but to others.

    Ephesians 3:4-5

    4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

    5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

    Actually, the mystery would have been first revealed to Jesus Christ, since he is the head of the body which is the church.

    The mystery was hid in God, it was not hid in His son

    Ephesians 3:9

    9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    Most certainly, the twelve apostles did not teach all those things that the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus taught.

    Hebrews 3:1
    Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

    Peter was one of the apostles who notably contradicted the apostle Jesus' doctrine.

    However, Peter was meek enough to continue to learn.

    We all have a learning curve.

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  • Theo102
    replied
    Originally posted by Right Divider View Post

    Again, what does this have to do with the different gospel?
    The bit that I said about contrast.

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