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  • #16
    Is 54:5 "For thy Maker is thine husband - Both these words, ‹maker‘ and ‹husband,‘ in the Hebrew are in the plural number. But the form is evidently the pluralis excellentiae - a form denoting majesty and honor (see 1 Samuel 19:13, 1 Samuel 19:16; Psalm 149:2; Proverbs 9:10; Proverbs 30:3; Ecclesiastes 12:1; Hosea 12:1). Here it refers to ‹Yahweh of hosts,‘ necessarily in the singular" - Albert Barnes Notes.

    That the Hebrew plural is often used for a singular noun to denote “a ‘plural’ of majesty or excellence” is well-known by all Biblical Hebrew language experts and has been known from at least the time of Gesenius (1786-1842), who is still regarded as one of the better authorities for Biblical Hebrew!

    Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament (“long regarded as a standard work for students”), p. 49, shows that elohim, ... (“God/gods”) is sometimes used in a numerically plural sense for angels, judges, and false gods. But it also says,
    “The plural of majesty [for elohim], occurs, on the other hand, more than two thousand times.” And that elohim when used in that sense “occurs in a [numerically] singular sense” and is “constr[ued] with a verb ... and adjective in the singular.”

    Gesenius - Kautzsch’s Hebrew Grammar, 1949 ed., pp. 398, 399, says:
    “The pluralis excellentiae or maiestatis ... is properly a variety of the abstract plural, since it sums up the several characteristics belonging to the idea, besides possessing the secondary sense of an intensification of the original idea. It is thus closely related to the plurals of amplification .... So, especially Elohim ... ‘God’ (to be distinguished from the plural ‘gods’, Ex. 12:12, etc.) .... That the language has entirely rejected the idea of numerical plurality in Elohim (whenever it denotes one God) is proved especially by its being almost invariably joined with a singular attribute.”

    Peloubet’s Bible Dictionary, 1925 ed. Pg. 224:

    Elohim "is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God."
    More modern publications (trinitarian Protestant and Catholic) also make similar acknowledgments of the intended plural of majesty or excellence meaning for elohim. (See the New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. v., p. 287.)

    Nelson’s Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament, describes elohim:
    “The common plural form ‘elohim,’ a plural of majesty.” - Unger and White, 1980, p. 159

    The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says:
    “It is characteristic of Heb[rew] that extension, magnitude, and dignity, as well as actual multiplicity, are expressed by the pl[ural].” - Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1984 ed., Vol. II, p. 1265.

    Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, 1982, Bethany House Publishers, written by trinitarian scholars, says of elohim:
    “Applied to the one true God, it is the result in the Hebrew idiom of a plural magnitude or majesty. When applied to the heathen gods, angels, or judges ..., Elohim is plural in sense as well as form.” - p. 208.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Dartman View Post
      Jehovah alone is the creator of the Universe.



      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Tigger 2 View Post
        Is 54:5 "For thy Maker is thine husband - Both these words, ‹maker‘ and ‹husband,‘ in the Hebrew are in the plural number. But the form is evidently the pluralis excellentiae - a form denoting majesty and honor (see 1 Samuel 19:13, 1 Samuel 19:16; Psalm 149:2; Proverbs 9:10; Proverbs 30:3; Ecclesiastes 12:1; Hosea 12:1). Here it refers to ‹Yahweh of hosts,‘ necessarily in the singular" - Albert Barnes Notes.

        That the Hebrew plural is often used for a singular noun to denote “a ‘plural’ of majesty or excellence” is well-known by all Biblical Hebrew language experts and has been known from at least the time of Gesenius (1786-1842), who is still regarded as one of the better authorities for Biblical Hebrew!

        Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament (“long regarded as a standard work for students”), p. 49, shows that elohim, ... (“God/gods”) is sometimes used in a numerically plural sense for angels, judges, and false gods. But it also says,
        “The plural of majesty [for elohim], occurs, on the other hand, more than two thousand times.” And that elohim when used in that sense “occurs in a [numerically] singular sense” and is “constr[ued] with a verb ... and adjective in the singular.”

        Gesenius - Kautzsch’s Hebrew Grammar, 1949 ed., pp. 398, 399, says:
        “The pluralis excellentiae or maiestatis ... is properly a variety of the abstract plural, since it sums up the several characteristics belonging to the idea, besides possessing the secondary sense of an intensification of the original idea. It is thus closely related to the plurals of amplification .... So, especially Elohim ... ‘God’ (to be distinguished from the plural ‘gods’, Ex. 12:12, etc.) .... That the language has entirely rejected the idea of numerical plurality in Elohim (whenever it denotes one God) is proved especially by its being almost invariably joined with a singular attribute.”

        Peloubet’s Bible Dictionary, 1925 ed. Pg. 224:

        Elohim "is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God."
        More modern publications (trinitarian Protestant and Catholic) also make similar acknowledgments of the intended plural of majesty or excellence meaning for elohim. (See the New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. v., p. 287.)

        Nelson’s Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament, describes elohim:
        “The common plural form ‘elohim,’ a plural of majesty.” - Unger and White, 1980, p. 159

        The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says:
        “It is characteristic of Heb[rew] that extension, magnitude, and dignity, as well as actual multiplicity, are expressed by the pl[ural].” - Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1984 ed., Vol. II, p. 1265.

        Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, 1982, Bethany House Publishers, written by trinitarian scholars, says of elohim:
        “Applied to the one true God, it is the result in the Hebrew idiom of a plural magnitude or majesty. When applied to the heathen gods, angels, or judges ..., Elohim is plural in sense as well as form.” - p. 208.
        Gesenius was a Jew, so of course, he will reject The Trinity.

        Further, no one is discussing elohim, except you.

        Comment


        • #19
          It isn't just Gesenius and it isn't just elohim. Please read it again.

          Pluralis Majestatis: Biblical Hebrew

          "The term ‘majestic plural’ or pluralis majestatis refers to the use of a plural word to refer honorifically to a single person or entity. It is also called the ‘plural of respect’, the ‘honorific plural’, the ‘plural of excellence’, or the ‘plural of intensity’.

          "In the Hebrew Bible such plural forms are most commonly used when referring to the God of Israel, e.g.,adonim ‘I am a master (lit. ‘masters’)’ (Mal. 1.6), although it can also be used when referring to a human, e.g., abraham adonaw ‘Abraham his master (lit. ‘masters’)’ (Gen. 24.9), an object, e.g. gibroteka ‘your grave (lit. ‘graves’)’ (2 Kgs 22.20), ...." - ENCYCLOPEDIA OF HEBREW LANGUAGE AND LINGUISTICS, vol. 3, p. 145.

          There are a number of other nouns treated this way in the Hebrew text.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Apple7 View Post
            Its plural in Hebrew.
            Go argue with the translators.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Apple7 View Post
              Gesenius was a Jew, so of course, he will reject The Trinity.
              And, because of that, he would be a good bet for understanding Hebrew.
              Jesus was a Jew, and Jesus worshiped the God of the Jews ..... NOT a trinity;

              John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: WE know what WE worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Dartman View Post
                Of course.
                That's what I said.
                no

                God's words were in the begining, were with God, and ARE God. God's words DEFINE Him to us.
                such a cascade of errors in that sentence

                notice you didn't capitalize "words" I know you think the translators got it wrong , all cultist say that.

                "the Word" is a person "In him was life" "the Word" was made flesh

                Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
                Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
                Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
                Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

                Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
                  notice you didn't capitalize "words" I know you think the translators got it wrong , all cultist say that.
                  You DO realize there was no distinction between capital and lower case when the NT was written. In fact every choice to capitalize a word/letter is an translator's opinion.
                  Your pretense that the modern translations, by trinitarian translators, is in any way inspired and/or authorized is predictable.
                  The very notion that John uses "LOGOS" ANY differently in chapter 1, than he does in the rest of his gospel is PURE opinion. With ABSOLUTELY no Scriptural basis.

                  The passage makes PERFECT sense with the constant definition of LOGOS being, something uttered or written.
                  The examples of John's use of LOGOS prove this point.

                  John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.
                  John 1:14 And the word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,...
                  John 2:22 ...and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
                  John 4:37 And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.
                  John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
                  John 4:41 And many more believed because of his own word;
                  John 4:50 Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.
                  John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life ...
                  John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
                  John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
                  John 7:36 What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?
                  John 7:40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
                  John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
                  John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
                  John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
                  John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
                  John 8:52 .. thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
                  John 8:55 ... I know him, and keep his saying.
                  John 10:19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
                  John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
                  John 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake,..
                  John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, .. hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
                  John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: ...
                  John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
                  John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
                  John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, ... if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
                  John 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
                  John 17:6 ... thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
                  John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
                  John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
                  John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
                  John 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
                  John 18:32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
                  John 19:8 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid;
                  John 19:13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat
                  John 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Dartman View Post
                    You DO realize there was no distinction between capital and lower case when the NT was written. In fact every choice to capitalize a word/letter is an translator's opinion.
                    Your pretense that the modern translations, by trinitarian translators, is in any way inspired and/or authorized is predictable.
                    The very notion that John uses "LOGOS" ANY differently in chapter 1, than he does in the rest of his gospel is PURE opinion. With ABSOLUTELY no Scriptural basis.
                    like I said
                    notice you didn't capitalize "words" I know you think the translators got it wrong , all cultist say that.

                    The passage makes PERFECT sense with the constant definition of LOGOS being, something uttered or written.
                    The examples of John's use of LOGOS prove this point.


                    "the Word" is a person "In him was life" "the Word" was made flesh

                    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
                    Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
                    Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
                    Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

                    Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Tigger 2 View Post
                      It isn't just Gesenius and it isn't just elohim. Please read it again.

                      Pluralis Majestatis: Biblical Hebrew

                      "The term ‘majestic plural’ or pluralis majestatis refers to the use of a plural word to refer honorifically to a single person or entity. It is also called the ‘plural of respect’, the ‘honorific plural’, the ‘plural of excellence’, or the ‘plural of intensity’.

                      "In the Hebrew Bible such plural forms are most commonly used when referring to the God of Israel, e.g.,adonim ‘I am a master (lit. ‘masters’)’ (Mal. 1.6), although it can also be used when referring to a human, e.g., abraham adonaw ‘Abraham his master (lit. ‘masters’)’ (Gen. 24.9), an object, e.g. gibroteka ‘your grave (lit. ‘graves’)’ (2 Kgs 22.20), ...." - ENCYCLOPEDIA OF HEBREW LANGUAGE AND LINGUISTICS, vol. 3, p. 145.

                      There are a number of other nouns treated this way in the Hebrew text.

                      'Plural of Majesty' was invented by Jews in an attempt to cover-up the Plural Creator described in scripture.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Dartman View Post
                        And, because of that, he would be a good bet for understanding Hebrew.
                        Jesus was a Jew, and Jesus worshiped the God of the Jews ..... NOT a trinity;
                        The Lord's Prayer is Triune.




                        Originally posted by Dartman View Post
                        John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: WE know what WE worship: for salvation is of the Jews.


                        John 4.22

                        You worship what you do not know: we worship what we know: for salvation is of the Jews.

                        From the Greek, 'ek', literally 'out from'.....

                        The recipe for salvation was given to the Jews, but they lost it...that is why the NT states that Jews have now become a conduit for the rest of us to be saved from their ignorance...

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Apple7 View Post
                          The Lord's Prayer is Triune.
                          Hogwash.
                          Originally posted by A
                          John 4.22

                          You worship what you do not know: we worship what we know: for salvation is of the Jews.

                          From the Greek, 'ek', literally 'out from'.....

                          The recipe for salvation was given to the Jews, but they lost it...that is why the NT states that Jews have now become a conduit for the rest of us to be saved from their ignorance...
                          True, but this text is ALSO discussing WHAT is WORSHIPED. Jesus told her she didn't know what she worshiped, but Jesus and the rest of the Jews did.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Dartman View Post
                            True, but this text is ALSO discussing WHAT is WORSHIPED. Jesus told her she didn't know what she worshiped, but Jesus and the rest of the Jews did.

                            Ever heard of context?


                            Jesus changed the location of worshipping The Father, to Himself and The Holy Spirit, in John 4.


                            • John 4.21; Worship to The Father is no longer to take place in the Mountain, or in Jerusalem.
                            • John 4.22; Salvation is out from the Jews.
                            • John 4.23 – 24; Jesus declares that the NEW place to worship The Father is in Spirit and Truth, which is to worship in the Person of Jesus Christ, who is the temple, holding the Second and Third Persons’ of the Trinity.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Apple7 View Post
                              Ever heard of context?


                              Jesus changed the location of worshipping The Father, to Himself and The Holy Spirit, in John 4.


                              • John 4.21; Worship to The Father is no longer to take place in the Mountain, or in Jerusalem.
                              • John 4.22; Salvation is out from the Jews.
                              • John 4.23 – 24; Jesus declares that the NEW place to worship The Father is in Spirit and Truth, which is to worship in the Person of Jesus Christ, who is the temple, holding the Second and Third Persons’ of the Trinity.
                              Sorry, you are not close.

                              Jesus was first, telling the Samaritan woman that their copy of the Idolatry of the 10 tribes was NOT going to produce salvation. Jesus told her
                              Salvation IS of the Jews, because WE know what WE worship.

                              Jesus and the other Jews had the right God. Jehovah/YHVH, the "God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob".

                              At the moment Jesus was speaking to her, Jerusalem WAS God's choice for WHERE ..... Jehovah would be worshiped. Jesus explained the coming CHANGE in covenant.
                              No longer was the PLACE of worship a commandment ... in stead being transformed in spirit, in heart, in mind, in the INNER man, is the issue. A new Law, designed to change the focus from merely going through the motions, to being transformed;

                              Mark 7:6-7 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Dartman View Post
                                Sorry, you are not close.

                                Jesus was first, telling the Samaritan woman that their copy of the Idolatry of the 10 tribes was NOT going to produce salvation. Jesus told her
                                Salvation IS of the Jews, because WE know what WE worship.
                                Incorrect.

                                The Greek term used here is arthrous, and is rendered as 'The Salvation', and, as you already freely admitted, it comes 'out from' the Jews.

                                All NT locations of 'The Salvation', outside of John 4.22, have Jesus as the referent.

                                Thus, we can be completely confident that John 4.22 is likewise discussing Jesus.

                                Comment

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