Is Calvinism Wrong?

glorydaz

Well-known member
In Eden before the fall, there was no labor for man in the garden. Labor enters the picture for the first time with the curse, as the ground becomes cursed, "in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread" ... it says. This would be the most opportune time to mention anything about a restriction on when Adam was to labor, should such a command ever have existed, seeing this would be the first time it could have found application.

No labor? :doh: He had to gather food, and tend the garden.

Gen. 1:28-29 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Genesis 2:15
15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.​


Therein is reason for God instituting the seventh day as a sabbath unto Israel, and the seventh day sabbath (there are other sabbaths as well) points to the Creation and the Creator. Yet the passage of Genesis 2:3 does not institute a sabbath commandment.

So when God sanctifies something (makes it holy), you think man should just ignore that? Moses didn't.

Exodus 19:23 And Moses said unto the Lord, The people cannot come up to mount Sinai: for thou chargedst us, saying, Set bounds about the mount, and sanctify it.

If it was passed down, then not only did it escape mention from the entire scripture but Israel also seems to have completely forgotten it during their time in Egypt. When God proclaimed a sabbath in Exodus 16:23 he taught them in a visible dramatic way that now this day was holy compared to any other day. The manna which they ate would not fall that day, but rather be preserved.

You are presuming they didn't know about the day of rest. They knew they should be resting. After all, the Sabbath was made for man. You think if it wasn't mentioned prior to that, it had been forgotten? That's a lot of presuming right there.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Rosenritter, do you have a 'personal testimony' of how and when you became a member of the 'Body of Christ,' and what assurance do you have that you'll receive eternal life?

Matthew 7:6 KJV
(6) Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you: that is, despise the admonitions and reproofs given, and hurt the persons who give them, either by words or deeds; see Pro_9:7. The Jews have some sayings much like these, and will serve to illustrate them (k); אל תשליכו הפנינים לפני החזירים, "do not cast pearls before swine", nor deliver wisdom to him, who knows not the excellency of it; for wisdom is better than pearls, and he that does not seek after it, is worse than a swine.''

"Swine" in this context seems to be defined as those that "turn again and rend you." Considering how you tried to twist about a simple answer like "yes" from the last question, your security clearance seems to be in a "suspended" status. Perhaps you might seek to re-establish good faith?
 

Rosenritter

New member
Well, I suppose that could be, but I believe the Ten does contain all that. The command not to commit adultery for instance. Adultery is not limited to a woman.
Jeremiah 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Jeremiah 3:9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.

Ezekiel 23:37 That they have committed adultery, and blood is in their hands, and with their idols have they committed adultery, and have also caused their sons, whom they bare unto me, to pass for them through the fire, to devour them.​

The commandment about coveting includes any and all desire of what does not belong to you. I believe this moral Law (including homosexuality) is written in the hearts of men.

Wouldn't those three passages be examples of a metaphor comparing idolatry to adultery, rather than literal adultery? If you are looking for a literal commandment applicable to those passages, I would suggest Exodus 20:4, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image..."
 

Rosenritter

New member
If it's the heart that matters, give the glory to God for what He accomplishes in you. Stop making it look like you are doing something to boast about (while faulting others for not doing what you boast in).

So what is it called when someone accuses someone of boasting who was never boasted at all?
 

Rosenritter

New member
No labor? :doh: He had to gather food, and tend the garden.

No, they didn't need to work or labor in Eden. In this paradise, everything they needed literally grew on trees.

So when God sanctifies something (makes it holy), you think man should just ignore that?

It wouldn't me just me Glory. For example, John Gill notes the sanctification in Genesis 2:3 refers to the day of Moses, rather than the day when God rested from creation:

Genesis 2:2-3 KJV
(2) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
(3) And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

because that in it he had rested from all his work, which God created and made; which shows, that this refers not to the same time when God blessed and hallowed the seventh day, which was done in the times of Moses, but to what had been long before, and was then given as a reason enforcing it; for it is not here said, as in the preceding verse, "he rested", but "had rested", even from the foundation of the world, when his works were finished, as in Heb_4:3 even what "he created to make" (e), as the words may be here rendered; which he created out of nothing, as he did the first matter, in order to make all things out of it, and put them in that order, and bring them to that perfection he did.

Regardless, "abstaining from work" is not recorded anywhere as a means of "recognizing a thing as holy" at any time until Exodus 16:23. Even setting aside the observation from John Gill above, we might suppose that God sanctified the seventh day in Eden, but if so he did not place any obligation upon the man to perform any special rite or observance. The only commandment defined for Adam was concerning the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Somehow the story of Eden doesn't seem quite the same with the serpent tempting Eve "don't you want to do some work today?" Which indeed, if that were a commandment, would be just as valid a means of corrupting the man as tempting him to eat the fruit.

You are presuming they didn't know about the day of rest. They knew they should be resting. After all, the Sabbath was made for man. You think if it wasn't mentioned prior to that, it had been forgotten? That's a lot of presuming right there.

The practice of positive assumption without evidence allows for a great multitude of error. When lacking evidence, negative assumption is the prudent norm. The Bible does not have specific evidence that a "flying spaghetti monster" is not orbiting Jupiter, but it would the height of folly to argue that an absence of specific denial of this "spaghetti monster" is actually evidence for its existence.

Glory, there are a good many people that would love to have positive evidence of "the Sabbath was commanded from Creation" ... even specifically groups like the Seventh-day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses. I think you've already used the best of their arguments already, but the evidence simply isn't there.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
So what is it called when someone accuses someone of boasting who was never boasted at all?

I know you're not talking about yourself. :chuckle:

Like most words, boasting is not confined to one specific action or series of words.

Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.​
 

Rosenritter

New member
I know you're not talking about yourself. :chuckle:

Like most words, boasting is not confined to one specific action or series of words.
Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.​

Glory, you are entering into the realm of false accusation. At this point the burden of proof would be upon you to show evidence of boasting from my own words. You may show specific quotations (with links) that may be addressed, or you may retract the accusation. One or the other would might allow positive progress, but the unsupported accusation against character needs to stop now.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
No, they didn't need to work or labor in Eden. In this paradise, everything they needed literally grew on trees.

Guess you've never picked any thing that grew on trees, have you? Cherries, pears, apples? Ever picked nuts up off the ground? Did they just fly into your dish and crack themselves? Ever picked herbs or planted seeds? Keeping the garden required work.

Are you thinking that God just created man to sit around with his feet up, and have grapes fall into his mouth while he watched the stars in the sky? Did you bother to read the verses I gave about tending the garden?

Adam means MAN. Adam was the first MAN.

Genesis 2:1-3 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:​


Spoiler
It wouldn't me just me Glory. For example, John Gill notes the sanctification in Genesis 2:3 refers to the day of Moses, rather than the day when God rested from creation:

Genesis 2:2-3 KJV
(2) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
(3) And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

because that in it he had rested from all his work, which God created and made; which shows, that this refers not to the same time when God blessed and hallowed the seventh day, which was done in the times of Moses, but to what had been long before, and was then given as a reason enforcing it; for it is not here said, as in the preceding verse, "he rested", but "had rested", even from the foundation of the world, when his works were finished, as in Heb_4:3 even what "he created to make" (e), as the words may be here rendered; which he created out of nothing, as he did the first matter, in order to make all things out of it, and put them in that order, and bring them to that perfection he did.

Regardless, "abstaining from work" is not recorded anywhere as a means of "recognizing a thing as holy" at any time until Exodus 16:23. Even setting aside the observation from John Gill above, we might suppose that God sanctified the seventh day in Eden, but if so he did not place any obligation upon the man to perform any special rite or observance. The only commandment defined for Adam was concerning the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.


Somehow the story of Eden doesn't seem quite the same with the serpent tempting Eve "don't you want to do some work today?" Which indeed, if that were a commandment, would be just as valid a means of corrupting the man as tempting him to eat the fruit.

I'll quote from Gill...."but if so he did not place any obligation upon the man to perform any special rite or observance".

I'm not talking about any rite or commandment. The seventh day was deemed holy by God, and it was a gift to man to have a day of rest. Even Adam needed to rest. Mark 2:27


The practice of positive assumption without evidence allows for a great multitude of error. When lacking evidence, negative assumption is the prudent norm. The Bible does not have specific evidence that a "flying spaghetti monster" is not orbiting Jupiter, but it would the height of folly to argue that an absence of specific denial of this "spaghetti monster" is actually evidence for its existence.

Glory, there are a good many people that would love to have positive evidence of "the Sabbath was commanded from Creation" ... even specifically groups like the Seventh-day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses. I think you've already used the best of their arguments already, but the evidence simply isn't there.

Rosen, the Lord's day of rest is not a flying spaghetti monster. And your insinuation that I'm using evidence from some cult is just ignorance on your part. After all, you're the one who thinks food just fell off the trees into Adam's lap. :chuckle:
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Glory, you are entering into the realm of false accusation. At this point the burden of proof would be upon you to show evidence of boasting from my own words. You may show specific quotations (with links) that may be addressed, or you may retract the accusation. One or the other would might allow positive progress, but the unsupported accusation against character needs to stop now.

Your unsupported accusations against me haven't stopped. :think:

Rosen, who made you queen of this forum? You order people around like you carry a scepter and crown wherever you go. Do this...do that....you need to.... you MAY SHOW...you MAY RETRACT. :rolleyes:

That's boasting in your own (supposed) great wisdom and authority.

I've explained that words have many definitions and meanings. There are many ways to boast. You boast by making up four silly questions saying any Christian would never have a problem answering them. Thus, though implication, you answer them so you are a Christian. And those questions must be answered including with your personal definitions or the other person is suspect. You have repeated this ad nauseum, so I do not have to, nor will I, go back and list them out for you.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Wouldn't those three passages be examples of a metaphor comparing idolatry to adultery, rather than literal adultery? If you are looking for a literal commandment applicable to those passages, I would suggest Exodus 20:4, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image..."

No, and No.

No, it means literal adultery with stones and rocks?
No, it means Exodus 20:4 is not a literal commandment applicable to idolatry with stones and rocks?

No, it does not mean literal (physical) adultery with stones and rocks.

And, no, adultery in the Bible is used in many different ways.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Guess you've never picked any thing that grew on trees, have you? Cherries, pears, apples? Ever picked nuts up off the ground? Did they just fly into your dish and crack themselves? Ever picked herbs or planted seeds? Keeping the garden required work.

I have picked fruit from trees, apples from the ground, wild onions from the plant, and so on and so forth... and that being in this fallen world that fights against us with thorn and brier. But this isn't a cash-crop harvest scenario in a post-fall, post-flood world. this is the Paradise of God in Eden with the tree of life for man in its midst, you don't need protective gloves or boots, or clothing of any sort for that matter.

Adam means MAN. Adam was the first MAN.
Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:​


Glory, Mark 2:27 is from the Greek (not Hebrew) and the word there for "man" means "mankind" and unlike the Hebrew word which can have either meaning, anthropos (Mark 2:27) does not mean adam (Luke 3:38). If Jesus meant to say "the sabbath was made for Adam" he would have used the name "Adam."
I'll quote from Gill...."but if so he did not place any obligation upon the man to perform any special rite or observance".

Just for accuracy, that part was my quote. I placed John Gill in the box.

I'm not talking about any rite or commandment. The seventh day was deemed holy by God, and it was a gift to man to have a day of rest. Even Adam needed to rest. Mark 2:27

Your interpretation of Mark 2:27 is not supported by the text. Anthropos does not mean Adam. Past this you're flying forward on unsupported reasoning... or rather circular reasoning, as it depends on accepting the assumption as fact to prove the rest of the argument.

Rosen, the Lord's day of rest is not a flying spaghetti monster. And your insinuation that I'm using evidence from some cult is just ignorance on your part. After all, you're the one who thinks food just fell off the trees into Adam's lap. :chuckle:

The reference to "flying spaghetti monster" refers to the challenge that the premise of the existence of a thing should have some sort of evidence, and not be accepted on an arbitrary say-so. It isn't a reference to the H.P. Lovecraft or the Cult of Cthulhu or the like.

By the way, apples literally DO fall off the tree into your lap.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I have picked fruit from trees, apples from the ground, wild onions from the plant, and so on and so forth... and that being in this fallen world that fights against us with thorn and brier. But this isn't a cash-crop harvest scenario in a post-fall, post-flood world. this is the Paradise of God in Eden with the tree of life for man in its midst, you don't need protective gloves or boots, or clothing of any sort for that matter.

There you go adding protective gloves and boots to what I said. :chuckle:

I'm glad you can boast over your harvesting skills, but you ignore the words of scripture when you do so.

Does this sound like they are supposed to sit around and let apples fall into their laps?

Genesis 1:28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.​

Do you seriously believe God didn't expect the MAN to rest after dressing and keeping the garden all week long?

Genesis 2:15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

Young's goes so far as to say..."And Jehovah God taketh the man, and causeth him to rest in the garden of Eden, to serve it, and to keep it." Others say to "cultivate" and "tend" it. That certainly doesn't square with your idea of apples falling into their laps.



Glory, Mark 2:27 is from the Greek (not Hebrew) and the word there for "man" means "mankind" and unlike the Hebrew word which can have either meaning, anthropos (Mark 2:27) does not mean adam (Luke 3:38). If Jesus meant to say "the sabbath was made for Adam" he would have used the name "Adam."

And here I was thinking Adam was part of mankind....the first one, actually. The first man who had a big job cultivating and tending the Garden.


Just for accuracy, that part was my quote. I placed John Gill in the box.

I couldn't make heads nor tails of what you were attempting to say...even with Gill's help. It certainly did not point to Moses if that was the claim.

Your interpretation of Mark 2:27 is not supported by the text. Anthropos does not mean Adam. Past this you're flying forward on unsupported reasoning... or rather circular reasoning, as it depends on accepting the assumption as fact to prove the rest of the argument.

Common sense does support my "interpretation".

The reference to "flying spaghetti monster" refers to the challenge that the premise of the existence of a thing should have some sort of evidence, and not be accepted on an arbitrary say-so. It isn't a reference to the H.P. Lovecraft or the Cult of Cthulhu or the like.

Oops, is that an attempt at condescension? :think:

By the way, apples literally DO fall off the tree into your lap.

I have a lot of apple trees, and they don't fall into my lap....because I'm not lazing around like I had nothing else to do.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
My point is that if someone came to you, today, and asked you, "What must I do to gain everlasting life?", if you answered the same way Jesus did, you'd be giving the wrong answer! To get the answer right, you are forced - forced - to go to Paul to get it. "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." is the right answer and it is nowhere to be found on the lips of Jesus Christ nor anyone else other than the Apostle Paul.

Clete

AMEN I didn't want this to go by. It addresses the very problem we see of not understanding the two Gospels. Those who try and mix law and grace are blind to this great truth Clete has stated so perfectly. :thumb:
 

Rosenritter

New member
And here I was thinking Adam was part of mankind....the first one, actually. The first man who had a big job cultivating and tending the Garden.

Surely you understand that "The sabbath was made for man" is not a proof that the Sabbath was made for the first man of creation? Note that "the seventh day" is not the same as "sabbath" - they are two separate terms.

I couldn't make heads nor tails of what you were attempting to say...even with Gill's help. It certainly did not point to Moses if that was the claim.

I didn't think that Gill was hard to understand, but if you cannot make "heads or tails" of the several lines of Gill's commentary then I don't think that you can truthfully claim to understand both sides of the issue just yet. You certainly cannot refute what you admit you do not understand. Do you have access to Gill's commentary?

Common sense does support my "interpretation".
Oops, is that an attempt at condescension? :think:

You certainly seem to have a chip on your shoulder...
 

Rosenritter

New member
No, it does not mean literal (physical) adultery with stones and rocks.

And, no, adultery in the Bible is used in many different ways.

A word can be used in both the literal and figurative (metaphorical) sense.

a·dul·ter·y
əˈdəlt(ə)rē/
noun
noun: adultery; plural noun: adulteries
voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse.
  • "she was committing adultery with a much younger man"
    synonyms:infidelity, unfaithfulness, falseness, disloyalty, cuckoldry, extramarital sex; More

Adultery has a specific literal meaning. When it is used in another sense outside its literal meaning, this non-literal meaning is often referred to as "metaphor."

met·a·phorˈ
medəˌfôr,ˈmedəˌfər/
noun
noun: metaphor; plural noun: metaphors
a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.
  • “I had fallen through a trapdoor of depression,” said Mark, who was fond of theatrical metaphors"
    synonyms:figure of speech, image, trope, analogy, comparison, symbol, word painting/picture"the profusion of metaphors in her everyday speech has gotten pretty tiresome"
    • a thing regarded as representative or symbolic of something else, especially something abstract.
      "the amounts of money being lost by the company were enough to make it a metaphor for an industry that was teetering"

It would be very useful to have an agreement concerning the literal meanings of "literal" and "metaphor" or any discussion of anything is going to go about in circles and cause no end of frustration. ("Circles" in that last sentence would also be an example of a metaphorical usage.)
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Surely you understand that "The sabbath was made for man" is not a proof that the Sabbath was made for the first man of creation?


Surely you understand that nothing you've offered proves otherwise.

Note that "the seventh day" is not the same as "sabbath" - they are two separate terms.

Note - as per the subject at hand. Would you care to read the scripture?

Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


I didn't think that Gill was hard to understand, but if you cannot make "heads or tails" of the several lines of Gill's commentary then I don't think that you can truthfully claim to understand both sides of the issue just yet. You certainly cannot refute what you admit you do not understand. Do you have access to Gill's commentary?

I do understand the issue. Gill can't change that one way or the other.

So, let me simplify this just for you. I have no problem understanding Gill's commentary when I'm given more than a little blurb that starts mid-sentence the way you did. I'm not sure why you are so reliant on one particular commentator, anyway, when what is being discussed here is so obvious and simple.

Your nitpicking is certainly a marvel to behold, but it leads you off into the weeds, and I really see no profit in following you there.


You certainly seem to have a chip on your shoulder...

Oh, I've hurt your feelings? I certainly didn't mean to do that.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
A word can be used in both the literal and figurative (metaphorical) sense.

a·dul·ter·y
əˈdəlt(ə)rē/
noun
noun: adultery; plural noun: adulteries
voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse.
  • "she was committing adultery with a much younger man"
    synonyms:infidelity, unfaithfulness, falseness, disloyalty, cuckoldry, extramarital sex; More

Adultery has a specific literal meaning. When it is used in another sense outside its literal meaning, this non-literal meaning is often referred to as "metaphor."

met·a·phorˈ
medəˌfôr,ˈmedəˌfər/
noun
noun: metaphor; plural noun: metaphors
a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.
  • “I had fallen through a trapdoor of depression,” said Mark, who was fond of theatrical metaphors"
    synonyms:figure of speech, image, trope, analogy, comparison, symbol, word painting/picture"the profusion of metaphors in her everyday speech has gotten pretty tiresome"
    • a thing regarded as representative or symbolic of something else, especially something abstract.
      "the amounts of money being lost by the company were enough to make it a metaphor for an industry that was teetering"

It would be very useful to have an agreement concerning the literal meanings of "literal" and "metaphor" or any discussion of anything is going to go about in circles and cause no end of frustration. ("Circles" in that last sentence would also be an example of a metaphorical usage.)

My my, the lengths you will go to. All those fonts and lists and boxes.

So much work....as if I didn't know the difference between literal and figurative.

This is the condescension I've been talking about. :rolleyes:

But, please, don't let me spoil your boasting. I love comedy as well as the next guy.
 
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