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Sam Harris interviews Bart Ehriman

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  • #31
    Lon, everything you said in the post above is completely unrelated to the point I made. We were not discussing your credentials or aspirations. You made a false claim, I called you out on it. You should have just admitted you misspoke.

    You said Ehrman was not a scholar, and you were wrong. I’m not offended, people make mistakes. But a wise man will acknowledge his own. FWIW.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Guyver View Post
      Lon, everything you said in the post above is completely unrelated to the point I made.
      I thought you said his degrees impressed you?

      Originally posted by Guyver View Post
      We were not discussing your credentials or aspirations.
      Not mine, just his?

      Originally posted by Guyver View Post
      You made a false claim, I called you out on it. You should have just admitted you misspoke.
      you misread. I said "...thinks he is a scholar...." See, he's not anymore. At least not in Christian circles. We are sad, but he cut his influence with us. Its gone.

      Originally posted by Guyver View Post
      You said Ehrman was not a scholar, and you were wrong. I’m not offended, people make mistakes. But a wise man will acknowledge his own. FWIW.
      Are you a wise man? I said "...thinks he is a scholar...." Did you want it to read '...knows he is a scholar..?" When Ehrman has denied the faith, he is no longer a reputable scholar. He isn't the first or last sad guy that went off the deep end, but he's no longer reputable among us. My next sentence after the quote however, was:
      Originally posted by Lon View Post
      He 'thinks' he's a scholar...didn't hear much but ... opinions."
      Then:

      Originally posted by Lon View Post
      He was this smart guy who was able to read the languages, and then he started missing the easy stuff. He literally asks questions and says things, that are answered in the Bible and he seems completely oblivious to having read them.
      See, I recognize the guy knows language, but he certainly is going beyond his degree. All of us who have Koine Greek get a New Testament with all variants listed. We are all quite aware of what is different. Guess how many of us 'scholars' who are apparently no match for Ehrman, have denied the faith? Guess how many of us were ever convinced, by our translation studies, that the scriptures didn't represent what Jesus or the Apostles said? You guessed right, just Ehrman (and few others who, like me, aren't well known). The rest of us can read those variants any time in our Greek NT and we do. None of us agree with Ehrman (neither did Metzger, his mentor).

      ONLY those who deny the faith go this direction. Pay attention: They FIRST reject, THEN go this direction. The rest of us, reading and studying the same stuff, whether we ever publish or not, recognize the difference and yet NEVER question that the copies are very comfortably close to one another in such a way that I've incredible confidence. Further, it is such a weird - odd, CRAZY notion that anyone but the original Apostles and those with them wrote these books. They aren't 'made up' nor remotely have that vibe (evidence) about them. It'd have been better to have said "Ehrman still thinks he's a scholar..." with qualifications about that. He's in a secular college and is qualified for a secular education. He isn't qualified to speak in any evangelical or orthodox university other than as one against what they hold as true and only for that purpose. If you understand this, you won't be bothered by my previous statement. He is no longer qualified to be a spokesman for the Christian community any longer. That means his scholarship is only noteworthy among people who happen to agree with him and aren't Christians themselves. He laughed, as I said, about the qualifications of being a Christian, but again, God says plainly what that is: one whom He knows. That's it. Paul gave signs of how we can tell if one is behaving as a Christian, and you can certainly tell if someone knows Christ portrayed in scripture, but the mark of a Christian is simply who Christ has a hold of. There are people who will say to Him: "Lord Lord" that He says do not know Him. Therefore, it must always come down to "does He know you?" It has to.
      My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
      Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
      Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
      Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
      No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
      Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

      ? Yep

      Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

      ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

      Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

      Comment


      • #33
        Lon, if you were able to successfully pass the bar exam, or complete your course of study and residency to become a certified lawyer or doctor, practice many years, become a reputable expert in your field...then suddenly change religions....do you think you would be suddenly unqualified in your field?

        Like say.....let’s say you were a doctor who happened to be Jewish, but you wished to marry a woman who was Catholic, so you converted to her religion, should you be disqualified as a practicing doctor?

        Obviously, that is a rhetorical question because the answer is no. A persons professional qualifications are their own achievement, and it’s not based on religion. You don’t like what he has to say, you don’t share his beliefs, but you don’t have the right to consider him not expert in his field.

        It seems you wish to avoid admitting that you were mistaken regarding the comments you made about him being a bible scholar. Why? I’m not sure if it’s pride on your part, or the bias that would allow you to dismiss his work as misguided so as to not influence your own beliefs. Doesn’t make any difference to me. I only support and stand behind my statements in this thread about factual, verifiable information pertaining to manuscript variation.

        Dr. Ehrmans personal beliefs are inconsequential to my understanding of truth. FWIW.

        Comment


        • #34
          corrected your flawed analogy:
          Originally posted by Guyver View Post
          Lon, if you were able to successfully ... complete your course of study and residency to become a certified ... doctor, practice many years, become a reputable expert in your field...then suddenly ....

          and then suddenly reject modern medicine and start treating patients with leeches and hex signs, burning smudge and chanting sacred chants over the ill ....


          Originally posted by Guyver View Post
          ... do you think you would be suddenly unqualified in your field?

          yes, of course

          Comment


          • #35
            If anyone around here has been Christian long enough to remember when Amy Grant went secular, you’ll understand this.

            It was a real bummer for many Christian people when Amy Grant went secular, as it was when Jimmy Swaggart got caught with prostitutes. It was a difficult thing. It was sort of a blow to the faith of many people.

            But, not one could say that Amy Grant was not a musician, because she was. People probably didn’t want to listen to her music after that....but it doesn’t mean she wasn’t still making music.

            It just means that people didn’t want to hear her brand anymore. I think we’re dealing with a similar situation here. As an aside to the real points of meaningful debate or discussion in this particular topic.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Guyver View Post
              But, not one could say that Amy Grant was not a musician, because she was.
              she wasn't a Christian contemporary musician

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by ok doser View Post
                she wasn't a Christian contemporary musician
                Right, but she was....long time.

                For many years millions of Christians all around the world listened to her music, and for those kinds of Christians who believe in “praise and worship” many of them actually worshipped God along with Amy Grant. It would be no surprise that many Christians would swear to the anointing of the Holy Spirit upon her music. And then one day, she switched.

                So, once she was of God and then she was not. Once, her music was worth listening to, and then it was not. Somehow she went from having God’s anointing, to no longer having it. Does that mean that for all those many years the Christians who praised God with Amy Grant were involved in false worship?

                Of course not. But, whatever...Amy Grant is not the topic of this thread. Yet the same idea applies. If Bart Erhman were not atheist, most Christians would probably consider him a righteous bible scholar. But now that he is, they want to reject everything about him, just as all the people who refused to listen to Amy Grant wouldnt play her albums any more even though for years before they considered it to be of the Holy Spirit.

                Comment


                • #38
                  not surprised that you don't get it

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by ok doser View Post
                    not surprised that you don't get it
                    Not surprised that your response is not comprised of meaningful sentences.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Lon View Post

                      I've always had reservations about Ehrman, both pre and post. He was able to report what he was reading and what was affecting his thinking, but he has no way of acknowledging Christ barring His Spirit in Him. I've told you the same thing. There is absolutely NO way an unbeliever can grasp God, if He does not abide in them.

                      this is the reason i don't spend much time and effort on unbelievers like guvyer

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Guyver View Post
                        Lon, if you were able to successfully pass the bar exam, or complete your course of study and residency to become a certified lawyer or doctor, practice many years, become a reputable expert in your field...then suddenly change religions....do you think you would be suddenly unqualified in your field?
                        Doser answered and his reply stands, but for any kind of addition that might help, I've also gone ahead and answered this post.

                        There is an incorrect equivocation here that I'll point out in a moment BUT, yes, it is malpractice. Yes they lose their license. "IF" you respect the doctor's degree after that, it is okay, I guess, but the guy is no longer allowed to practice medicine.

                        In this case, the problem is 'Who' is giving credentials. As believing Christians, it is ALWAYS the Lord Jesus Christ that gives the credential. Read the Bible. It is as clear as day.

                        Originally posted by Guyver View Post
                        Like say.....let’s say you were a doctor who happened to be Jewish, but you wished to marry a woman who was Catholic, so you converted to her religion, should you be disqualified as a practicing doctor?
                        This isn't the same. It'd be like a doctor in the U.S. marrying a witchdoctor in Africa AND joining in that practice, in order for it to be closer to actuals. Hope that helps you grasp the problem. The most important thing for you to get, is that the Lord Jesus Christ gives credentials. The Bible is very clear what to do if those in the church leave the faith. Can you respect him for his college job and his grasp of languages? Yes. Can you respect his lack of ability to reason through Christian doctrine? You can try, but it is extremely important to recognize that just run of the mill language scholars like me, find him disreputable. Shoot, listen to the interview: Bart himself laughs at serious matters that are supposed to be his degree. Take your doctor analogy: If a doctor told you that you had cancer then started laughing at your 'options' that he didn't like, you'd 1) question his unorthodox practice given up instead and 2) wonder why no other doctor bought into his weird ideas. You don't, because you 'like' the alternative methodology, probably with a proclivity of already having those unorthodox views already (both medicine and theology by analogy).


                        Originally posted by Guyver View Post
                        Obviously, that is a rhetorical question because the answer is no. A persons professional qualifications are their own achievement, and it’s not based on religion. You don’t like what he has to say, you don’t share his beliefs, but you don’t have the right to consider him not expert in his field.
                        Having a similar degree? Incorrect. You are simply saying you like what is not orthodox when it comes to Christian considerations. Ehrman has nothing to teach me.

                        Originally posted by Guyver View Post
                        It seems you wish to avoid admitting that you were mistaken regarding the comments you made about him being a bible scholar.
                        I said "...he thinks he's a scholar..." Bible certainly was implied because I immediately said he makes rookie mistakes that no bible scholar I know of 'could' make. Sorry, it is just this bad. He doesn't know his or anybody else's bible when he doesn't know what God requires. It is as sad as that. Did you listen to his interview?

                        Originally posted by Guyver View Post
                        Why? I’m not sure if it’s pride on your part, or the bias that would allow you to dismiss his work as misguided so as to not influence your own beliefs.
                        If it is pride, it isn't 'false' pride, but pride in orthodox truth. Ehrman LOST that, even by his own admission. You want to look up to him? Go ahead. I'm not going to stop you. He's a witchdoctor when it comes to theology any longer. He's a best-seller. Among Christians? Not unless they want to rebut him and warn others away from him.

                        Doesn’t make any difference to me. I only support and stand behind my statements in this thread about factual, verifiable information pertaining to manuscript variation.
                        CAN you read Greek? If not, you've no stance other than depending who your guru is. You are stuck following a man. I know and have those variants.
                        Originally posted by Guyver View Post
                        Dr. Ehrmans personal beliefs are inconsequential to my understanding of truth. FWIW.
                        It doesn't add up. You are concerned entirely with Ehrman and naught but in this thread with me.
                        My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                        Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                        Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                        Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                        No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                        Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                        ? Yep

                        Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                        ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                        Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by ok doser View Post
                          this is the reason i don't spend much time and effort on unbelievers like guvyer
                          My prayer is God will open eyes 'for those who have eyes to see.'
                          My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                          Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                          Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                          Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                          No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                          Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                          ? Yep

                          Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                          ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                          Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Guyver View Post
                            If anyone around here has been Christian long enough to remember when Amy Grant went secular, you’ll understand this.

                            It was a real bummer for many Christian people when Amy Grant went secular, as it was when Jimmy Swaggart got caught with prostitutes. It was a difficult thing. It was sort of a blow to the faith of many people.
                            Some of those Southern gospel folks, but they didn't like her to begin with. Many Christians?

                            Same with Swaggart: He is a Pentecostal. His fall had mostly to do with his church. He lost funding for his television broadcast as well. Did it rock the rest of our faith? No.

                            Ehrman is the same way. He's just a guy. One of many many many Christian representatives in the sea. The ones on television have a bigger audience. Amy has never denied the faith.

                            Originally posted by Guyver View Post
                            But, not one could say that Amy Grant was not a musician, because she was. People probably didn’t want to listen to her music after that....but it doesn’t mean she wasn’t still making music.
                            No, no. This is like saying Bart Ehrman isn't a dad (if he is one). One has nothing to do with the other. Its a false comparison.

                            Originally posted by Guyver View Post
                            It just means that people didn’t want to hear her brand anymore.
                            True, though she never left Christian music. She simply added love songs and other songs of family and social values that still reflected her faith. Rather, if she started playing on a garbage can meowing like a cat? Yeah, she'd have none of us former listeners listening.

                            Originally posted by Guyver View Post
                            I think we’re dealing with a similar situation here. As an aside to the real points of meaningful debate or discussion in this particular topic.
                            It would not hurt his seminary to revoke his degrees. I had his 'textual criticism' book at one point. It was okay for reading, but nothing I wasn't already aware of, nor any additional information than I already had by the time I'd gotten to it.
                            My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                            Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                            Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                            Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                            No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                            Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                            ? Yep

                            Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                            ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                            Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Lon View Post
                              It would not hurt his seminary to revoke his degrees. I had his 'textual criticism' book at one point. It was okay for reading, but nothing I wasn't already aware of, nor any additional information than I already had by the time I'd gotten to it.
                              Revoke his degrees? Wow. I'm really surprised to hear such thinking, especially from you Lon. You said you were pursuing a higher education but you seem to be completely uninformed as to how acadamia and even corporate America work. People are actually protected from such bias legally. You can't revoke a person's degrees or even dismiss them from their position because you don't like their religious beliefs. And that is how it should be since everyone's beliefs and opinions differ.

                              Ehrman is a respected professional scholar. He's probably had tenure for over twenty years.

                              "Ehrman has taught at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill since 1988, after four years of teaching at Rutgers University. At UNC he has served as both the Director of Graduate Studies and the Chair of the Department of Religious Studies. He was the recipient of the 2009 J. W. Pope "Spirit of Inquiry" Teaching Award, the 1993 UNC Undergraduate Student Teaching Award, the 1994 Phillip and Ruth Hettleman Prize for Artistic and Scholarly Achievement, and the Bowman and Gordon Gray Award for excellence in teaching." Wikipedia.

                              The idea that he should be rejected from his professional position or have his degrees revoked is just inconceivable to me in today's modern world. There is no requirement that a person be a born again Christian in order to be a bible scholar. In fact, thinking back to my own born again days, I remember quite clearly that it was commonly thought most of the bible scholars were actually not believers in the bible being the "word of God."

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Lon View Post
                                Some of those Southern gospel folks, but they didn't like her to begin with. Many Christians?
                                Lon, this thread isn't about Amy Grant. But, you just poo-pooed the idea of how popular she was. Again, you are just mistaken. This demonstrates that many of your beliefs and ideas are not actually based on any factual information......but instead, your own flawed perception of things. I don't mean to insult.....but I am a stickler for truth, because it's important to me. the following from wiki.

                                "Amy Lee Grant (born November 25, 1960) is an American singer, songwriter, musician, author and media personality. She is known for performing contemporary Christian music (CCM) and for a successful crossover to pop music in the 1980s and 1990s. She has been referred to as "The Queen of Christian Pop".[1][2]

                                As of 2009, she had sold more than 30 million albums worldwide,[3] won six Grammy Awards and 22 Gospel Music Association Dove Awards, and had the first Christian album to go Platinum."

                                First Christian album to go platinum. Repeated for emphasis.

                                Comment

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