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  • Originally posted by blackbirdking View Post
    But it's in this thread; you said so. Why two threads on the same thing?

    If obedience is not required for salvation, why is it required as you said?





    You said, "required". Why? In order to get to heaven?



    Again, you said, "required". Why? In order to get to heaven?

    Is believing required for salvation?

    Are works required for salvation?

    Is believing/faith required for a person to get to heaven?

    You partially covered this in your thread; surely you can discuss this in your thread.
    You're confused about this thread it hasn't anything to do with what you are talking about. Maybe you ought to read again the Op to understand what the premise of my thread is about.

    Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

    Comment


    • What is faith?

      Faith= pisteo= strong persuasion

      Pisteo akin to peitho

      We read of the “faith of God” -Romans 3.3

      “Your faith” -Rom. 1.8 /2 Cor.2.5/ 2 Cor. 15.17/ Eph. 1.15/ 2 Tim. 1.3/1 Tim. 3.9/ 2 Tim. 1.3

      “The faith of Christ” -Gal. 2,16

      “The faith of the Son of God” -Gal. 2.20"

      “The faith of Christ” -Phil. 3.9

      “Profession of our faith.” -Hebr. 10.23

      “Christ the Author & Finisher of our faith” -Hebr. 12.2

      Author and Finisher of [our] faith

      Comment


      • Originally posted by FineLinen View Post
        What is faith?

        Faith= pisteo= strong persuasion

        Pisteo akin to peitho

        We read of the “faith of God” -Romans 3.3

        “Your faith” -Rom. 1.8 /2 Cor.2.5/ 2 Cor. 15.17/ Eph. 1.15/ 2 Tim. 1.3/1 Tim. 3.9/ 2 Tim. 1.3

        “The faith of Christ” -Gal. 2,16

        “The faith of the Son of God” -Gal. 2.20"

        “The faith of Christ” -Phil. 3.9

        “Profession of our faith.” -Hebr. 10.23

        “Christ the Author & Finisher of our faith” -Hebr. 12.2

        Author and Finisher of [our] faith
        Wrong.

        Faith is pistis, the noun. Pisteuo is the verb. Nouns aren’t verbs. Pistis, though directly related to pisteuo, is not pisteuo.

        Strike 3 HUNDRED for you. Sigh.
        Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
        “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

        Comment


        • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
          You're confused about this thread it hasn't anything to do with what you are talking about. Maybe you ought to read again the Op to understand what the premise of my thread is about.
          Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
          Really now?
          Your OP:

          Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
          The answer is absolutely yes. If we agree with the overall definition of work according to the greek word for work ergon:

          See strongs # 2041:

          1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied
            1. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

          2. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind


          3. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

            A work is anything done, accomplished by #1 hand, #2 art, #3 industry, #4 or MIND

            The mind is :

            (in a human or other conscious being) the element, part, substance, or process that reasons, thinks, feels, wills, perceives, judges, etc.

            Psychology. the totality of conscious and unconscious mental processes and activities.

            So believing something via the mental activity and process of reasoning is work. The process of decision making is a activity, work of the mind.

            Now for instance, the sin of hatred Gal 5:19-20


            Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


            20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

            How is that sin committed ? It starts in the mind or heart ! Yet in Vs 19 its stated as an work of the flesh

            So activity in and with the mind/heart is a work, this cannot be denied..

            Now believing is either a work of the flesh [unregenerate] or of the Spirit [ regenerated]

            But now Salvation is not by works, Neither by works of the flesh or works of the Spirit.


          Your second post:

          Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
          So if one says God saved me because of my believing/ faith

          Then congratulations you are boasting about God saved you by your works !
          Your third post:

          Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
          Spam rabbit trail
          Your fourth post:

          Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
          Amen. As 2 Tim 2:10 emphasizes "not according to our works" not because we believe, since believing is a work we do!
          Your fifth post:

          Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
          Believing is a work. That's the point of this thread.
          You affirm that believing is works and that salvation is not by works/believing/faith.

          Then this:


          Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
          Any act of obedience to Gods command is a work, a good work. Believing on Christ is a commandment of God, so therefore a good work 1 Jn 3:23

          And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

          Acts 16:31

          And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

          The word believe here is the greek word
          pisteuō and in this instance its an imperative which means:

          The imperative mood corresponds to the English imperative, and expresses a command to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order and authority of the one commanding. Thus, Jesus' phrase, "Repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mk.1:15) is not at all an "invitation," but an absolute command requiring full obedience on the part of all hearers.So believing here would be a good work performed by the Jailor if he obeyed the imperative !

          And if his act of obeying this command caused God to save him, then he was saved because of a god work he performed !
          Then you repeat:

          Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
          Here's another scripture that indicates faith has an element of action to it. Jesus says in Mk 11:22

          And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

          This is an imperative that requires action

          The imperative mood corresponds to the English imperative, and expresses a command to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order and authority of the one commanding. Thus, Jesus' phrase, "Repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mk.1:15) is not at all an "invitation," but an absolute command requiring full obedience on the part of all hearers.

          People try to dismiss truth by worldly arguments, the wisdom of this world.

          Yes Faith here is a noun however an action is required, which is a work
          After all the blustering about works you slip up and admit that works are required, implying that they are required for salvation; that you do is undeniable, as is shown by your posts.

          I wouldn't want to discuss it either if I were you, so I don't blame you for trying to avoid my question about your points.

          You really do want to believe what you've been taught about God, but you know it just doesn't add up; therefore, you slipped up and portrayed what you really believe. You know down deep inside that salvation is by a co-operative action by God and man and that believing is required by man and that man has salvation only when he has believing/faith/works, as you call it.

          Your quandary cannot be avoided while adhering to the monergistic conundrum of Calvinism. Keep up the good work of exposing how your doctrine is indeed the doctrine of man.

          Your entire doctrine is based upon your ability to comprehend the character and existence of God, while claiming others to be boasting about their ability to believe.

          Read the Bible, all of it, without man's preconceived notions, and it will straighten you out.
          And... never forget that a god who creates evil, cannot be trusted.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by blackbirdking View Post
            Really now?
            Your OP:



            Your second post:



            Your third post:



            Your fourth post:



            Your fifth post:


            You affirm that believing is works and that salvation is not by works/believing/faith.

            Then this:




            Then you repeat:



            After all the blustering about works you slip up and admit that works are required, implying that they are required for salvation; that you do is undeniable, as is shown by your posts.

            I wouldn't want to discuss it either if I were you, so I don't blame you for trying to avoid my question about your points.

            You really do want to believe what you've been taught about God, but you know it just doesn't add up; therefore, you slipped up and portrayed what you really believe. You know down deep inside that salvation is by a co-operative action by God and man and that believing is required by man and that man has salvation only when he has believing/faith/works, as you call it.

            Your quandary cannot be avoided while adhering to the monergistic conundrum of Calvinism. Keep up the good work of exposing how your doctrine is indeed the doctrine of man.

            Your entire doctrine is based upon your ability to comprehend the character and existence of God, while claiming others to be boasting about their ability to believe.

            Read the Bible, all of it, without man's preconceived notions, and it will straighten you out.
            And... never forget that a god who creates evil, cannot be trusted.
            You don't understand how I'm using required and the context to which its said. So you still seem not to understand the point of the Op. It has nothing to do with your inquiry sorry.

            Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
            "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
            preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
            called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
            a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

            Charles Spurgeon !

            Comment


            • Originally posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
              Wrong.

              Faith is pistis, the noun. Pisteuo is the verb. Nouns aren’t verbs. Pistis, though directly related to pisteuo, is not pisteuo.

              Strike 3 HUNDRED for you. Sigh.
              Dear P.P.S. I appreciate your advisement. "Peitho and pisteuo" (to trust) are closely related etymologically; the difference in meaning is that the former implies the obedience that is produced by the latter.

              “This is the God of the gospel of grace. A God who, out of love for us, sent the only Son He ever had wrapped in our skin. He learned how to walk, stumbled and fell, cried for His milk, sweated blood in the night, was lashed with a whip and showered with spit, was fixed to a cross, and died whispering forgiveness on us all.” - Brennan Manning-

              Comment


              • "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God"

                Not= μή=

                The absolute negative primary word.

                Dear Beloved 57 : Repeat NOT!

                “The chief proof of man’s real greatness lies in his perception of his own smallness”

                Comment


                • Originally posted by FineLinen View Post
                  Dear P.P.S. I appreciate your advisement. "Peitho and pisteuo" (to trust) are closely related etymologically; the difference in meaning is that the former implies the obedience that is produced by the latter.

                  “This is the God of the gospel of grace. A God who, out of love for us, sent the only Son He ever had wrapped in our skin. He learned how to walk, stumbled and fell, cried for His milk, sweated blood in the night, was lashed with a whip and showered with spit, was fixed to a cross, and died whispering forgiveness on us all.” - Brennan Manning-
                  And now an attempt to allegly “school me” on language. Puh-lease. It’s you who used the verb as the noun. I said nothing of peitho and pisteuo.

                  You expose your overt ignorance with these forays. Why would you perpetually do that?

                  And what’s with all the stupid closing blurp or quotes? You’re a trip.
                  Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
                  “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
                    And now an attempt to allegly “school me” on language. Puh-lease. It’s you who used the verb as the noun. I said nothing of peitho and pisteuo.

                    You expose your overt ignorance with these forays. Why would you perpetually do that?

                    And what’s with all the stupid closing blurp or quotes? You’re a trip.
                    Dear P.P.S. I do appreciate your kind remarks. I mentioned to my precious matrimonial partner that everybody hates me.

                    The response= "everybody has not met you yet."

                    "If ever I want to amuse myself with an idiot, I have not far to look for one. I laugh at myself." -Frederic Farrar-

                    Frederic W. Farrar - Christian Classics Ethereal Library - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

                    Comment


                    • A genuine saving faith always bears fruit/works. A faith that doesn't work, is a useless faith, of no use to anyone. Such "faith" is worthless and has no redemptive value. Anyone that tells you, a person can have faith and not manifest the fruits of faith, is probably under the influence of demons or strong drink.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by FineLinen View Post
                        Dear P.P.S. I do appreciate your kind remarks. I mentioned to my precious matrimonial partner that everybody hates me.

                        The response= "everybody has not met you yet."

                        "If ever I want to amuse myself with an idiot, I have not far to look for one. I laugh at myself." -Frederic Farrar-

                        Frederic W. Farrar - Christian Classics Ethereal Library - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
                        You don’t even know the meaning of the word hate. Nor do you know the meaning of the word love. So therein lie two aspects of your whole series of problems.

                        But be sure and attempt to blame the whole world for your self-inflicted issues.
                        Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
                        “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by RealityJerk View Post
                          A genuine saving faith always bears fruit/works. A faith that doesn't work, is a useless faith, of no use to anyone. Such "faith" is worthless and has no redemptive value. Anyone that tells you, a person can have faith and not manifest the fruits of faith, is probably under the influence of demons or strong drink.
                          But it is the OP who is insisting that faith (the noun) itself IS a work. This is entirely different from faith being the source of works and that faith without them is dead.
                          Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
                          “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
                            But it is the OP who is insisting that faith (the noun) itself IS a work. This is entirely different from faith being the source of works and that faith without them is dead.
                            I'd say faith is a work of God in us. For example, faith comes through hearing the word, but that faith that is generated through the hearing of God's work, is a divine work. That word is described in the NT as "Energia", divine energy. The word "Energia" is often used for "Work". Faith is a divine energy, working within and through us. We can undermine that work, that energy, interrupting it, by surrendering to the impulses of the flesh. Our faith is a work of God, but it doesn't find its origin or source in us. It descends from the Heavenly Father, from our Creator.
                            Last edited by RealityJerk; April 5, 2019, 12:17 PM. Reason: Typo correction: "word" = "work"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by RealityJerk View Post
                              I'd say faith is a work of God in us. For example, faith comes through hearing the word, but that faith that is generated through the hearing of God's work, is a divine work. That word is described in the NT as "Energia", divine energy. The word "Energia" is often used for "Work". Faith is a divine energy, working within and through us. We can undermine that work, that energy, interrupting it, by surrendering to the impulses of the flesh. Our faith is a work of God, but it doesn't find its origin or source in us. It descends from the Heavenly Father, from our Creator.
                              Faith is the result OF the work of God in us. Energia is latent potentiality for work. Not the work itself. It’s the workER of the work. The delegated source, directly from God. Faith is a noun.

                              Receiving a thing (noun) is not a work. God giving the noun is the work. And the “hearing” in Romans 10:17 is also a noun. It’s not acting as an act with a resulting action. It’s the message/report/news itself.

                              No need to pander to the OP and confuse the issues. Faith is a noun, and is not believING. Faith is not a verb. Faith is not a work. Faith is the noun that is the resulting thing from God’s work alone.
                              Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
                              “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
                                Faith is the result OF the work of God in us. Energia is latent potentiality for work. Not the work itself. It’s the workER of the work. The delegated source, directly from God. Faith is a noun.

                                Receiving a thing (noun) is not a work. God giving the noun is the work. And the “hearing” in Romans 10:17 is also a noun. It’s not acting as an act with a resulting action. It’s the message/report/news itself.

                                No need to pander to the OP and confuse the issues. Faith is a noun, and is not believING. Faith is not a verb. Faith is not a work. Faith is the noun that is the resulting thing from God’s work alone.
                                Then in regards to Romans 10:14, would hear mean being persuaded?

                                Comment

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