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  • Is God Three?

    The trinity, as an official doctrine, began to be developed in 325 A.D. at the Council of Nicaea and was completed in 381 at the Council of Constantinople. Both of these official events were convened and presided over by Roman Emperors. So by 381 A.D. it was officially decreed that God was three persons who were equally the one God.

    “[The Trinity Doctrine] is not ... directly and immediately the word of God.” - (p. 304) “The formulation ‘One God in three persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian Dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers [those very first Christians who had known and been taught by the Apostles and their disciples for over 100 years], there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.” - New Catholic Encyclopedia, p. 299, v. 14, 1967.


    Now it is obvious that Scripture uses the word 'one' numerous times to describe God. And it is equally obvious that every dream or vision of God shows a single person as God (sometimes the Messiah is shone approaching or standing by the one person depicted as God (Acts 7:55 and Dan. 7:9, 13, 14 are good examples).

    So, how many times in Scripture is God described using the word 'three'?

    And how many times is he shown in scripture as three persons? or one person with three faces?

  • #2
    Roman Emperors deciding what is Christian doctrine.

    Good post!
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

    Comment


    • #3
      Tigger 2, excellent post.


      Sent from my iPad using TOL
      Psalm 1[/COLOR] and Job 28:28

      Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

      Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Tigger 2 View Post
        The trinity, as an official doctrine, began to be developed in 325 A.D. at the Council of Nicaea and was completed in 381 at the Council of Constantinople. Both of these official events were convened and presided over by Roman Emperors. So by 381 A.D. it was officially decreed that God was three persons who were equally the one God.

        “[The Trinity Doctrine] is not ... directly and immediately the word of God.” - (p. 304) “The formulation ‘One God in three persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian Dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers [those very first Christians who had known and been taught by the Apostles and their disciples for over 100 years], there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.” - New Catholic Encyclopedia, p. 299, v. 14, 1967.


        Now it is obvious that Scripture uses the word 'one' numerous times to describe God. And it is equally obvious that every dream or vision of God shows a single person as God (sometimes the Messiah is shone approaching or standing by the one person depicted as God (Acts 7:55 and Dan. 7:9, 13, 14 are good examples).

        So, how many times in Scripture is God described using the word 'three'?

        And how many times is he shown in scripture as three persons? or one person with three faces?

        Early Trinitarian Quotes
        by Matt Slick

        There are cult groups (Jehovah's Witnesses, The Way International, Christadelphians, etc.) who deny the Trinity and state that the doctrine was not mentioned until the 4th Century until after the time of the Council of Nicea (325). This council "was called by Emperor Constantine to deal with the error of Arianism [see page 45] which was threatening the unity of the Christian Church."

        The following quotes show that the doctrine of the Trinity was indeed alive-and-well before the Council of Nicea:

        Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

        "O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

        Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.

        "For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

        Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

        "In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
        "We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

        Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

        "The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . '" (Against Heresies X.l)

        Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

        "We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

        Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.

        "If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority . . . There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

        "For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

        "Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification . . . " (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

        Conclusion
        If, as the anti-Trinitarians maintain, the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine and was never taught until the council of Nicea in 325, then why do these quotes exist? The answer is simple: the Trinity is a biblical doctrine, and it was taught before the council of Nicea in 325 A.D.

        Part of the reason that the Trinity doctrine was not "officially" taught until the time of the Council of Nicea is that Christianity was illegal until shortly before the council. It wasn't really possible for official Christian groups to meet and discuss doctrine. For the most part, they were fearful of making public pronouncements concerning their faith.

        Additionally, if a group had attacked the person of Adam, the early church would have responded with an official doctrine of who Adam was. As it was, the person of Christ was attacked. When the Church defended the deity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity was further defined.

        The early church believed in the Trinity as is evidenced by the quotes above, and it wasn't necessary to really make them official. It wasn't until errors started to creep in that councils began to meet to discuss the Trinity as well as other doctrines that came under fire.
        He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

        Jim Elliot

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
          Early Trinitarian Quotes
          by Matt Slick

          There are cult groups (Jehovah's Witnesses, The Way International, Christadelphians, etc.) who deny the Trinity and state that the doctrine was not mentioned until the 4th Century until after the time of the Council of Nicea (325). This council "was called by Emperor Constantine to deal with the error of Arianism [see page 45] which was threatening the unity of the Christian Church."

          The following quotes show that the doctrine of the Trinity was indeed alive-and-well before the Council of Nicea:

          Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

          "O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

          Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.

          "For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

          Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

          "In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
          "We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

          Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

          "The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . '" (Against Heresies X.l)

          Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

          "We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

          Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.

          "If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority . . . There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

          "For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

          "Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification . . . " (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

          Conclusion
          If, as the anti-Trinitarians maintain, the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine and was never taught until the council of Nicea in 325, then why do these quotes exist? The answer is simple: the Trinity is a biblical doctrine, and it was taught before the council of Nicea in 325 A.D.

          Part of the reason that the Trinity doctrine was not "officially" taught until the time of the Council of Nicea is that Christianity was illegal until shortly before the council. It wasn't really possible for official Christian groups to meet and discuss doctrine. For the most part, they were fearful of making public pronouncements concerning their faith.

          Additionally, if a group had attacked the person of Adam, the early church would have responded with an official doctrine of who Adam was. As it was, the person of Christ was attacked. When the Church defended the deity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity was further defined.

          The early church believed in the Trinity as is evidenced by the quotes above, and it wasn't necessary to really make them official. It wasn't until errors started to creep in that councils began to meet to discuss the Trinity as well as other doctrines that came under fire.
          BR,

          As evidence for the trinity, that is as pitiful a list as can be made.

          Which author substantiated their conclusions with scripture?

          Not a one. At least not in the quotes you supplied.

          For that matter, look at your first one:

          Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

          "O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).
          Who is listed?

          1. God, the Lord God Almighty

          2. "the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son" he is not referred to as God but as God's high priest and beloved Son. Aaron, Melchizedek, and others were high priests, do you believe they are God? I have eternal life, does that make me God? Romans 6:23

          3. The Holy Spirit, which is simply another name that God gives to himself. For that matter is that referring to God the Father of the lord Jesus Christ or the gift which is pneuma hagion or holy spirit. I John 4:13

          How does glory reach the Lord God Almighty?

          I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you,

          THROUGH the Son, not to the Son.

          Really? How pitiful
          "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

          "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

          Pro scripture = Protestant

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by oatmeal View Post
            BR,

            As evidence for the trinity, that is as pitiful a list as can be made.

            Which author substantiated their conclusions with scripture?

            Not a one. At least not in the quotes you supplied.

            For that matter, look at your first one:



            Who is listed?

            1. God, the Lord God Almighty

            2. "the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son" he is not referred to as God but as God's high priest and beloved Son. Aaron, Melchizedek, and others were high priests, do you believe they are God? I have eternal life, does that make me God? Romans 6:23

            3. The Holy Spirit, which is simply another name that God gives to himself. For that matter is that referring to God the Father of the lord Jesus Christ or the gift which is pneuma hagion or holy spirit. I John 4:13

            How does glory reach the Lord God Almighty?

            I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you,

            THROUGH the Son, not to the Son.

            Really? How pitiful
            Bright Raven's point was that the doctrine of the Trinity was believed and taught long before 325 AD.

            He wasn't proving it, rather, disproving the OP.


            Sent from my iPhone using TOL

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
              Early Trinitarian Quotes
              by Matt Slick

              There are cult groups (Jehovah's Witnesses, The Way International, Christadelphians, etc.) who deny the Trinity and state that the doctrine was not mentioned until the 4th Century until after the time of the Council of Nicea (325). This council "was called by Emperor Constantine to deal with the error of Arianism [see page 45] which was threatening the unity of the Christian Church."

              The following quotes show that the doctrine of the Trinity was indeed alive-and-well before the Council of Nicea:

              Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

              "O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).
              Polycarp is not claiming there is a trinity when listing God almighty, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit in one sentence.
              The three are obviously listed as being separate.

              Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
              Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.

              "For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).
              Justin Martyr is not claiming there is a trinity when listing God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit in one sentence.
              The three are obviously listed as being separate.

              Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
              Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

              "In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
              "We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)
              Ignatius is not claiming there is a trinity when listing Christ Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit in one sentence.
              The three are obviously listed as being separate.
              The second quote is only about Jesus and not about the Father nor the Holy Spirit, so cannot be counted as supporting the idea of a trinity.

              Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
              Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

              "The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . '" (Against Heresies X.l)
              Irenaeus is not claiming there is a trinity when listing the Father Almighty, Christ Jesus, and the Holy Spirit in one sentence.
              The three are obviously listed as being separate.

              Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
              Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

              "We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).
              Tertullian can be called the father of the trinity based on this quote.

              Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
              Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.

              "If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority . . . There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

              "For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

              "Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification . . . " (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).
              Origen had a lot of problems with trying to impose Greek philosophy onto the New Testament.

              Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
              Conclusion
              If, as the anti-Trinitarians maintain, the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine and was never taught until the council of Nicea in 325, then why do these quotes exist? The answer is simple: the Trinity is a biblical doctrine, and it was taught before the council of Nicea in 325 A.D.

              Part of the reason that the Trinity doctrine was not "officially" taught until the time of the Council of Nicea is that Christianity was illegal until shortly before the council. It wasn't really possible for official Christian groups to meet and discuss doctrine. For the most part, they were fearful of making public pronouncements concerning their faith.

              Additionally, if a group had attacked the person of Adam, the early church would have responded with an official doctrine of who Adam was. As it was, the person of Christ was attacked. When the Church defended the deity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity was further defined.

              The early church believed in the Trinity as is evidenced by the quotes above, and it wasn't necessary to really make them official. It wasn't until errors started to creep in that councils began to meet to discuss the Trinity as well as other doctrines that came under fire.
              The Trinity is not a biblical doctrine.
              The idea of God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son of God, and God's Holy Spirit comprising a single being that was a trinity of three beings can be traced to Tertullian and to the fear of a man wielding the power and authority that God gave to Jesus.
              Learn to read what is written.

              _____
              The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
              ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Tigger 2 View Post
                So, how many times in Scripture is God described using the word 'three'?

                And how many times is he shown in scripture as three persons? or one person with three faces?
                three is a running theme in the bible

                Three in the Bible: Consider the Bible's extraordinary use of this number. Christ was three days in the tomb, which Jonah’s three days foreshadowed, as did Abraham’s three days of thinking that he would sacrifice his son Isaac on that same hill called Golgotha, the Skull, and Mt. Moriah (Gen. 22:14; 2 Chron. 3:1). Israel's three patriarchs are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The priestly tribe of Levi is from Jacob's third child (Gen. 29:34), as Leviticus is the third book of the Bible. And the day the law was given, the sons of Levi killed “about three thousand men” (Ex. 32:28), whereas the day the Spirit was given, “that day about three thousand souls" were saved (Acts 2:41; and see 2 Cor. 3:6 and The Plot).


                The Hebrew Scriptures comprise three sections, the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings ( Luk. 24:44), and God created three archangels. The most noteworthy women are Eve, Sarah, .... http://kgov.com/bel/20130920

                Comment


                • #9
                  Was Jesus conceived by the holy Spirit?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                    Polycarp is not claiming there is a trinity when listing God almighty, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit in one sentence.
                    The three are obviously listed as being separate.


                    Justin Martyr is not claiming there is a trinity when listing God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit in one sentence.
                    The three are obviously listed as being separate.


                    Ignatius is not claiming there is a trinity when listing Christ Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit in one sentence.
                    The three are obviously listed as being separate.
                    The second quote is only about Jesus and not about the Father nor the Holy Spirit, so cannot be counted as supporting the idea of a trinity.


                    Irenaeus is not claiming there is a trinity when listing the Father Almighty, Christ Jesus, and the Holy Spirit in one sentence.
                    The three are obviously listed as being separate.


                    Tertullian can be called the father of the trinity based on this quote.


                    Origen had a lot of problems with trying to impose Greek philosophy onto the New Testament.


                    The Trinity is not a biblical doctrine.
                    The idea of God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son of God, and God's Holy Spirit comprising a single being that was a trinity of three beings can be traced to Tertullian and to the fear of a man wielding the power and authority that God gave to Jesus.
                    Every one of your points is simple denial of what is plainly being described.

                    For example, you claim Ignatius listed the three as separate. This is not true. The quote says "God Jesus." This denotes that they are one and the same. Like "Lord Father," denotes that God is Lord and Father, not two separate entities.


                    Sent from my iPhone using TOL

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      "God is Spirit."

                      It all deals with the of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It will never be fully understood by any Christian here on earth. I study the Bible to learn what God wants from me. I study the OT to learn from the mistakes of others. I study the NT to learn what Christ wants/expects from me.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Jesus taught the Most High was one. i agree with Him.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          First, unlike the writings of Holy Scripture, there are very few existing manuscripts of the writings of the first Christians. For many of these writers there are only one or two manuscripts available, and they are often of relatively late date (many hundreds of years after the original was composed). In other words, instead of having the original words of the ancient writers themselves, we have copies of copies, etc. many times over (all by trinitarian copyists, of course). Justin Martyr’s important ‘Dialogue with Trypho,’ for example, exists only in a copy made over a thousand years after the original was written.

                          Second, the copyists very often did not take the same care or have the same reverence for these manuscripts as they did for the scriptures themselves. They would sometimes change the wording and even add their own thoughts and beliefs to the original writings in order to provide greater authority for their more 'orthodox' beliefs in an attempt to persuade others.

                          “Furthermore, the manuscripts of the Church Fathers have suffered the usual transcriptional modifications to which all ancient manuscripts were subject; this was especially true for Biblical passages where the tendency of scribes was to accommodate readings to the Byzantine textual tradition.” - p. xxxvi, 'A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament', United Bible Societies (1971 ed.) [The Byzantine textual tradition is of relatively late date and, of course, trinitarian.]

                          Third, since trinitarians have ruled the world of Christendom in every way, politically, economically, numerically (95% of all professing Christians even today are trinitarian), etc. for over 1600 years now, and non-trinitarians were severely punished by them (including banishment and death), it should not be too surprising that trinitarians are the ones who have written the modern translations of the existing manuscript copies of these ancient writers. And these trinitarian translators have written their translations for trinitarian publishers who publish for a trinitarian market! Surely we wouldn’t expect them to translate an ambiguous or vague passage (and the trinitarian translators themselves have admitted that these writings are full of such passages) in a non-trinitarian way if they could find another (even if much less probable), trinitarian, interpretation. (They even admit that they have purposely done so. See Preface, Vol. 5, 'Ante-Nicene Fathers' or ANF)

                          Fourth, the terminology used by these early Christians has been redefined in later years. Terms translated today as “person,” “substance,” “nature,” “begotten,” “of the same substance ['homoousios'],” etc. often had a different meaning for these first Christians. But early trinitarians began REdefining them starting in the 4th century.

                          For example, early Christian Heracleon [c. 160 A. D.] taught that those who worshiped God in spirit and truth were themselves “of the same nature ['homoousios'] as the Father”! - p. 394, note #111, The Rise of Christianity, W. H. C. Frend (trinitarian), Fortress Press, 1985.

                          Obviously he didn't mean the same thing that later trinitarians have since redefined 'homoousios' as.

                          So, after more than 1500 years of trinitarian dominance, redefinition, rewording, and selective translating, it should not be surprising that the trinitarian translations of the very few relatively recent copies of the existing manuscripts of those early Christian writers will at times appear trinitarian.

                          What would be very surprising would be, given the above conditions, that there would be any support for a non-trinitarian doctrine still left in modern trinitarian translations of the writings of these earliest Christians!

                          “Before the Council of Nicaea (AD 325) all theologians viewed the Son as in one way or another subordinate to the Father.” - pp. 112-113, 'Eerdman’s Handbook to the History of Christianity' (trinitarian), 1977; and p. 114, 'The History of Christianity', A Lion Handbook, Lion Publishing, 1990 revised ed.

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                          • #14
                            “Justin and the other Apologists therefore taught that the Son is a creature. He is a high creature, a creature powerful enough to create the world, but nevertheless, a creature. In theology this relationship of the Son to the Father is called Subordinationism. The Son is subordinate, that is, secondary to, dependent upon, and caused by the Father.” - p. 110, 'A Short History of the Early Church', Eerdmans (trinitarian), 1976.

                            Justin Martyr’s ‘Apology’ and ‘Dialogue [With Trypho]’ “are preserved but in a single ms (Cod. Paris, 450, A.D. 1364)” - Britannica, 14th ed.

                            Clement, St., Pope of Rome (ca. 92-101) .... St. Clement is looked upon as the first of the ‘Apostolic Fathers.’ - p. 177, 'An Encyclopedia of Religion', Ferm (ed.), 1945.

                            "[In the early days of Christianity] one believed in the Father, in the Son and in the Holy Spirit, but no tie was available to unite them together. They were mentioned separately. Prayers were addressed, for example, to the Father who ‘alone,’ according to Clement of Rome, ‘was God.’" - 'Revue d’ Histoire et de Litterature Religieuses' (Review of History and of Religious Literature), May-June, 1906, pp. 222, 223.

                            Irenaeus:
                            ‘But there is only one God, the Creator ... He it is ... whom Christ reveals .... He is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ: through His Word, who is His Son, through Him He is revealed.’ - pp. 110, 111, 'A Short History of the Early Church', Eerdmans, 1976. (Ellipses were provided by Boer. Irenaeus quote by Boer is from ANF, 1:406.)

                            “... neither the prophets, nor the apostles, nor the Lord Christ in His own person, did acknowledge any other Lord or God, but the God and Lord supreme .... the Lord Himself handing down to His disciples, that He, the Father, is the only God and Lord, who alone is God and ruler of all; it is incumbent on us to follow ... their testimonies to this effect.” (ANF, 1:422, ‘Against Heresies’)

                            “If, for instance, anyone asks, ‘what was God doing before He made the world?’ we reply that the answer to such a question .... remains with God, and it is not proper for us to aim at bringing forward foolish, rash, and blasphemous suppositions [in reply to it] .... For consider all ye who invent such opinions, since the Father Himself is alone called God ... since, moreover, the Scriptures acknowledge Him alone as God” - (ANF, 1:400, ‘Against Heresies’)

                            Irenaeus’ “Against Heresies” exists today in full only in a single Latin translation from the original Greek language. It is thus not surprising that trinitarian-supporting “evidence” may be found in the single trinitarian-recopied, trinitarian-translated, trinitarian-redefined manuscript available today. But certainly this respected early Christian writer whom today's trinitarian scholars “credit” with the very “formulation” of the trinity doctrine would not have made the many clear non-trinitarian statements recorded above if he had really believed in or taught a trinity (or “Binity”)! Obviously the many trinitarians who handled (and mishandled) Irenaeus’ writing down through the centuries could (and did) change some non-trinitarian thoughts into trinitarian thoughts. But they would certainly never change trinitarian thoughts into non-trinitarian thoughts. Therefore, those many non-trinitarian concepts still remaining must be Irenaeus’ original teaching (as a study of the very first Creeds of this time also proves)!

                            Trinitarian Bernhard Lohse also concedes that Origen taught
                            that ‘the Son was a creature of the Father, thus strictly subordinating the Son to the Father’ and, ‘Origen is therefore able to designate the Son as a creature created by the Father.’ - pp. 46, 252, 'A Short History of Christian Doctrine', Fortress Press (trinitarian), 1985.

                            For example, Origen writes:
                            "there are certain creatures, rational and divine, which are called powers [spirit creatures, angels]; and of these Christ was the highest and best and is called not only the wisdom of God but also His power. - ANF 10:321-322.

                            Yes, Origen, like Justin Martyr, calls the Son of God a created angel, the highest of the angels, the Angel of God. He calls Jesus, the Word:

                            “the Angel of God who came into the world for the salvation of men”- p. 568, vol. 4, ANF.

                            “RUFINUS ... (c. 345-410), monk, historian and translator .... He also studied for several years in Alexandria under Didymus the Blind [St. Didymus, a staunch Nicene trinitarian - p. 402], and was deeply influenced by his Origenism [Didymus tried to ‘prove’ that Origen had taught a trinity doctrine in his 'De Principiis' - p. 1010] .... [Rufinus’] free translation of Origen’s De Principiis, the only complete text now surviving, was intended to vindicate Origen’s [‘trinitarian’] orthodoxy, and involved Rufinus in bitter controversy with his former friend, St. Jerome, who criticized the tendentious character of his rendering.” - p.1207, 'The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church', Revised, 1990 printing, Oxford University Press.

                            “It is much to be regretted that the original Greek of the 'De Principiis' has for the most part perished. We possess it chiefly in a Latin translation by Rufinus. And there can be no doubt that he often took great liberties with his author. So much was this felt to be the case, that [Roman Catholic “Saint”] Jerome [342-420 A.D.] undertook a new translation of the work; but only small portions of his version have reached our day. He strongly accuses Rufinus of unfaithfulness as an interpreter, while he also inveighs bitterly against Origen himself, as having departed from the Catholic Faith, specially in regard to the doctrine of the Trinity.” - ANF, 4:233.


                            In other words, Rufinus did not translate literally, but, instead, intentionally changed (or ‘corrected’) 'De Principiis' so as to make people believe that Origen had taught the trinity! And this is the text that has been used by trinitarians ever since to “prove” that Origen taught the trinity!

                            Furthermore, the famed trinitarian St. Jerome (ca. 400 A.D.) who accused Rufinus of dishonestly mistranslating Origen’s work noted with great bitterness that Origen did not teach the trinity!!!!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
                              three is a running theme in the bible

                              Three in the Bible: Consider the Bible's extraordinary use of this number. Christ was three days in the tomb, which Jonah’s three days foreshadowed, as did Abraham’s three days of thinking that he would sacrifice his son Isaac on that same hill called Golgotha, the Skull, and Mt. Moriah (Gen. 22:14; 2 Chron. 3:1). Israel's three patriarchs are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The priestly tribe of Levi is from Jacob's third child (Gen. 29:34), as Leviticus is the third book of the Bible. And the day the law was given, the sons of Levi killed “about three thousand men” (Ex. 32:28), whereas the day the Spirit was given, “that day about three thousand souls" were saved (Acts 2:41; and see 2 Cor. 3:6 and The Plot).


                              The Hebrew Scriptures comprise three sections, the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings ( Luk. 24:44), and God created three archangels. The most noteworthy women are Eve, Sarah, .... http://kgov.com/bel/20130920
                              I have not asked how many groups of things (whether one, two, four, twelve, etc.) you can find. Please read carefully:

                              So, how many times in Scripture is God described using the word 'three'?

                              And how many times is he [God] shown in scripture as three persons? or one person with three faces?

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