What is the Gospel?

[Sonnet]

Who was the idiot that took that paragraph out of context would be the better question.

#2032

[Sonnet]

That's more good news for the Church, but the Gospel to the unbelievers is Easter. If and only if you believe Easter, does it make any sense to read 1st Corinthians 15:3-4 (KJV)---it's not written to those not in the Church. If you believe Easter, then it makes sense to read 1st Corinthians 15:3-4 (KJV), but otherwise, it's not written to you, and it doesn't make any sense in what it's saying, because 1st Corinthians 15:3-4 (KJV) is not written to you, so the OUR is exclusive of YOU, if you don't believe EASTER.

1 Corinthians 15, v.11 Whether, then, it is I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

Romans 10 wasn't written specifically to unbelieving Israelites - nevertheless, Paul's words are for them and may be read so.

[Sonnet]

What I have stated is that the good news is not genuinely offered to each and every person, for obviously if this were true each and every person will be saved. To assume that such an offer can be made to each and every person is to assume God is unable to do what He has willed to do, for it is clear not all are saved.

AMR

[Ask Mr. Religion]

[MENTION=16283]Sonnet[/MENTION]

As my post from which you have quoted above without comment indicated, the free offer of the Gospel is not denied, provided it is clearly explicated in terms of God's preceptive will towards men in general without distinction, sinners qua sinners. Thus, God sincerely calls all men to repent, but in that free offer God does not call anyone in particular sincerely.

The will of precept (or the "revealed will" of God) has no volitional content as to the futurition of actions, but only to the obligation of them. The will of precept simply states what God has commanded ought to be done by man. Whether man wills to do it is absolutely dependent upon whether God has decreed that he shall do it (the will of decree, or God's "secret will").

Perhaps a careful reading of the following will help you come to grips with my position:

http://www.dr-bacon.net/blue_banner_...fer-review.htm

The dissenting review of Murray's OPC majority report at the link above captures the conservative Reformed position nicely. It is not for casual reading, but for serious study if you are so inclined.

A few teasers:

"...God desires the salvation of all men. The word, desire, we are informed, does not have reference to the decretive will of God, but to the revealed will of God in “the free offer of the gospel to all without distinction.”

"This distinction between a decretive and a revealed (or preceptive) will of God is both sound and necessary, and one to which all orthodox Calvinistic divines have had recourse. To quote Francis Turretin: “The first and principal distinction is that of the decretive and preceptive will of God... The former relates to the futurition and the event of things and is the rule of God’s external acts; the latter is concerned with precepts and promises and is the rule of our action.”

"Such a distinction must never be understood as implying that God has two wills. For it is clear from the above definition that the word will is being used in two different senses, i.e., equivocally, having two distinct points of reference. It is only the will of decree [nb: decretive will] which is the will of God in the proper sense of the term, as an act of volition, for therein God has decreed what shall be done."

"The will of precept [nb: revealed will] has no volitional content, for it simply states what God has commanded ought to be done by man. Whether man wills to do it is absolutely dependent upon whether God has decreed that he shall do it. So it is quite inappropriate to say that God wills something to be with reference to His will of command, for the preceptive will never pertains to the futurition of actions, only to the obligation of them."

"Scripture speaks expressly on the relation and action of God towards the reprobate, as it has been determined by His eternal and immutable counsel. They are vessels of wrath fitted to destruction (Rom. 9:22), enemies of the cross of Christ (Phil. 3:18), delivered unto thraldom to obey Satan as their god, (2 Cor. 4:4), ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth (2 Tim. 3:7). Any goodness they experience from the hand of God is a bitter sweet. It serves to inure them and to prepare them for the day of wrath (Rom. 2:4, 5). God has been pleased to leave multitudes of them without the fragrance of the gospel, and of those that do come under its aroma, the gospel becomes a savour of death unto death (2 Cor. 2:16). Its promises were never intended for them, having only been purchased by Christ for the elect (2 Cor. 1:20); and its commandments are odious to them, for they are never graciously renewed by the Holy Ghost (Rom. 8:7). And when they stumble at the word, continuing in their disobedience, it is because that is whereunto they were appointed in accord with the good pleasure of God (1 Pet. 2:8)."


AMR

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Are you trying to say that the death of Jesus saved all?

Okay...

Short answer...

“In reference to eternity” No. Jesus Death Saved all mankind from the clutches of Spiritual blindness and the “inescapable” condemnation of the “first physical death”. More specifically, John 12:32 shows that God can communicate with and “draw” “ALL” men to Himself, because Jesus Died for “ALL Men”, as 1 John 2:2 states... 1 Timothy 4:10, as well. I also recognize mankind’s free will to reject Christ’s Drawing Gesture of “Scandalous Love” towards all sinners.

To answer your question in its’ originally intended expression, that refers to eternal life with Christ...

Long Answer...

Earlier... I stated that Universalism and Limited Atonement both arrogantly claim to know the will of God.

For that matter... all conclusions about final judgment are attempts to speak for God as scripture says something very important I never deviate from...

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure

I get tired of people passing Salvic judgment on others and thus... I give all Glory to Jesus (The Word of God)... and recognize He has the final say... and thus... I exalt God far above even scriptural disputes in such matters and say...

“He can do whatever the Hell He wants... because He’s God”...

I do believe we had this conversation as I introduced a sock called “James Dalton” because I was sick of debating without rebuttal... so I went on as a noob and discussed this very thing with “whosoever” would bite...

And lookey here...

Deja Vu Link

And what? I still say God Alone knows the answer to your question...

He alone has final Salvic say...

[Right Divider]

The Catholic Church. I am not Catholic.

I enjoy the way that you try to evade. Come clean.

[Nihilo]

1 Corinthians 15, v.11 Whether, then, it is I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

Romans 10 wasn't written specifically to unbelieving Israelites - nevertheless, Paul's words are for them and may be read so.

And that's all well and good, until someone starts thinking that somehow you don't have to believe Easter to be saved.

[Nihilo]

I enjoy the way that you try to evade. Come clean.

I'm not evading anything. The Catholic Church is the Church Jesus Christ built upon Peter, and I'm not Catholic, bodily. I am on my way to full communion, but I'm not there yet. Just like all non-Catholic Christians.

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Spoiler

@<a href="http://theologyonline.com/member.php?u=16283" target="_blank">Sonnet</a>

As my post from which you have quoted above without comment indicated, the free offer of the Gospel is not denied, provided it is clearly explicated in terms of God's preceptive will towards men in general without distinction, sinners qua sinners. Thus, God sincerely calls all men to repent, but in that free offer God does not call anyone in particular sincerely.

The will of precept (or the "revealed will" of God) has no volitional content as to the futurition of actions, but only to the obligation of them. The will of precept simply states what God has commanded ought to be done by man. Whether man wills to do it is absolutely dependent upon whether God has decreed that he shall do it (the will of decree, or God's "secret will").

Perhaps a careful reading of the following will help you come to grips with my position:

http://www.dr-bacon.net/blue_banner_...fer-review.htm

The dissenting review of Murray's OPC majority report at the link above captures the conservative Reformed position nicely. It is not for casual reading, but for serious study if you are so inclined.

A few teasers:

"...God desires the salvation of all men. The word, desire, we are informed, does not have reference to the decretive will of God, but to the revealed will of God in “the free offer of the gospel to all without distinction.”

"This distinction between a decretive and a revealed (or preceptive) will of God is both sound and necessary, and one to which all orthodox Calvinistic divines have had recourse. To quote Francis Turretin: “The first and principal distinction is that of the decretive and preceptive will of God... The former relates to the futurition and the event of things and is the rule of God’s external acts; the latter is concerned with precepts and promises and is the rule of our action.”

"Such a distinction must never be understood as implying that God has two wills. For it is clear from the above definition that the word will is being used in two different senses, i.e., equivocally, having two distinct points of reference. It is only the will of decree [nb: decretive will] which is the will of God in the proper sense of the term, as an act of volition, for therein God has decreed what shall be done."

"The will of precept [nb: revealed will] has no volitional content, for it simply states what God has commanded ought to be done by man. Whether man wills to do it is absolutely dependent upon whether God has decreed that he shall do it. So it is quite inappropriate to say that God wills something to be with reference to His will of command, for the preceptive will never pertains to the futurition of actions, only to the obligation of them."

"Scripture speaks expressly on the relation and action of God towards the reprobate, as it has been determined by His eternal and immutable counsel. They are vessels of wrath fitted to destruction (Rom. 9:22), enemies of the cross of Christ (Phil. 3:18), delivered unto thraldom to obey Satan as their god, (2 Cor. 4:4), ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth (2 Tim. 3:7). Any goodness they experience from the hand of God is a bitter sweet. It serves to inure them and to prepare them for the day of wrath (Rom. 2:4, 5). God has been pleased to leave multitudes of them without the fragrance of the gospel, and of those that do come under its aroma, the gospel becomes a savour of death unto death (2 Cor. 2:16). Its promises were never intended for them, having only been purchased by Christ for the elect (2 Cor. 1:20); and its commandments are odious to them, for they are never graciously renewed by the Holy Ghost (Rom. 8:7). And when they stumble at the word, continuing in their disobedience, it is because that is whereunto they were appointed in accord with the good pleasure of God (1 Pet. 2:8)."


AMR

[glorydaz]

#2032

As I said, you took it out of context. You cherry picked...just as you do with Paul.

Is your refusal to do your duty related to me? I am not anyone's regula fidei. If you think what I have to say on the matter is the final word on your eternal destiny you are in great danger. I think rather you are enjoying being divisive with all these "I am seeking to understand, but cannot find unanimity among the faithful" comments. Do your duty and the rest will sort itself out in your walk of faith.

What I believe and has been made plain enough in this long thread is that all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. That is fallen man's duty.

Spoiler

What I have stated is that the good news is not genuinely offered to each and every person, for obviously if this were true each and every person will be saved. To assume that such an offer can be made to each and every person is to assume God is unable to do what He has willed to do, for it is clear not all are saved.

I cannot say to a specific person, Bob, that Jesus died for you, Bob. How can I or anyone possibly know this? What I do know from Scripture is that Jesus' atonement and resurrection secured the salvation for all so given to Him, the believing ones. This was an actual atonement, not a potential atonement, and not the nonsensical hypothetical universalism that would apply with the "potential" assumption.

No pastor must stand in the pulpit and declare to all present that "Jesus died for each and every one of you present here today." This is an abomination of what Scripture teaches unless the pastor is in possession of infallible knowledge of the will of God about each and every one present in that church today.

Rather, the pastor rightly must proclaim to each and every person present that all have sinned and are in jeopardy of the wrath of God for their sins. But, God, in His mercy, has provided a remedy for their dire state of affairs, in that Jesus died for the sins of all that believe upon Him. They need but call upon the name of the Lord and be saved. Those that do will be saved. Those that do not confirm their state of condemnation. Whether or not one is reprobate and unable to do so is irrelevant, for none of us knows the secret will of God. We do as we are commanded, to promiscuously proclaim the good news and leave the secret will of God to God alone. You cannot hide behind this in your reluctance to do your duty, for you do not possess omniscient knowledge of God's will concerning yourself. What you possess is the will to do as you are most inclined to do and you are accountable for the doing therein.

Clear enough for you?

AMR[/QUOTE]

Is your refusal to do your duty related to me? I am not anyone's regula fidei. If you think what I have to say on the matter is the final word on your eternal destiny you are in great danger. I think rather you are enjoying being divisive with all these "I am seeking to understand, but cannot find unanimity among the faithful" comments. Do your duty and the rest will sort itself out in your walk of faith.

What I believe and has been made plain enough in this long thread is that all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. That is fallen man's duty.

What I have stated is that the good news is not genuinely offered to each and every person, for obviously if this were true each and every person will be saved. To assume that such an offer can be made to each and every person is to assume God is unable to do what He has willed to do, for it is clear not all are saved.

I cannot say to a specific person, Bob, that Jesus died for you, Bob. How can I or anyone possibly know this? What I do know from Scripture is that Jesus' atonement and resurrection secured the salvation for all so given to Him, the believing ones. This was an actual atonement, not a potential atonement, and not the nonsensical hypothetical universalism that would apply with the "potential" assumption.

No pastor must stand in the pulpit and declare to all present that "Jesus died for each and every one of you present here today." This is an abomination of what Scripture teaches unless the pastor is in possession of infallible knowledge of the will of God about each and every one present in that church today.

Rather, the pastor rightly must proclaim to each and every person present that all have sinned and are in jeopardy of the wrath of God for their sins. But, God, in His mercy, has provided a remedy for their dire state of affairs, in that Jesus died for the sins of all that believe upon Him. They need but call upon the name of the Lord and be saved. Those that do will be saved. Those that do not confirm their state of condemnation. Whether or not one is reprobate and unable to do so is irrelevant, for none of us knows the secret will of God. We do as we are commanded, to promiscuously proclaim the good news and leave the secret will of God to God alone. You cannot hide behind this in your reluctance to do your duty, for you do not possess omniscient knowledge of God's will concerning yourself. What you possess is the will to do as you are most inclined to do and you are accountable for the doing therein.

Clear enough for you?

AMR

[glorydaz]

Are you trying to say that the death of Jesus saved all?

Okay...

Short answer...

No.

And there you have it, folks. The simple fact without all the hand wringing and anger and accusations.

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

And there you have it, folks. The simple fact without all the hand wringing and anger and accusations.

Why is context...

Such an issue for you?

Dishonest inference isn’t a positive trait. How can you be trustworthy, or supported, when you nurture obfuscation and simply look to make debate points... instead of focus on “Jesus”?

Context...

Are you trying to say that the death of Jesus saved all?

Okay...

Short answer...

No. Jesus Death Saved all mankind from the clutches of Spiritual blindness and the “inescapable” condemnation of the “first physical death”. More specifically, John 12:32 shows that God can communicate with and “draw” “ALL” men to Himself, because Jesus Died for “ALL Men”, as 1 John 2:2 states... 1 Timothy 4:10, as well. I also recognize mankind’s free will to reject Christ’s Drawing Gesture of “Scandalous Love” towards all sinners.

To answer your question in its’ originally intended expression, that refers to eternal life with Christ...

Long Answer...

Earlier... I stated that Universalism and Limited Atonement both arrogantly claim to know the will of God.

For that matter... all conclusions about final judgment are attempts to speak for God as scripture says something very important I never deviate from...

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure

I get tired of people passing Salvic judgment on others and thus... I give all Glory to Jesus (The Word of God)... and recognize He has the final say... and thus... I exalt God far above even scriptural disputes in such matters and say...

“He can do whatever the Hell He wants... because He’s God”...

I do believe we had this conversation as I introduced a sock called “James Dalton” because I was sick of debating without rebuttal... so I went on as a noob and discussed this very thing with “whosoever” would bite...

And lookey here...

Deja Vu Link

And what? I still say God Alone knows the answer to your question...

He alone has final Salvic say...

[Right Divider]

I'm not evading anything. The Catholic Church is the Church Jesus Christ built upon Peter, and I'm not Catholic, bodily. I am on my way to full communion, but I'm not there yet. Just like all non-Catholic Christians.

You've trying to get into the wrong church. The church which is His body had its foundation laid by Paul as given by the LORD Jesus Christ.

This explains your confusion.

[glorydaz]

I get tired of people passing Salvic judgment on others and thus...

He has a melt down, and a royal temper tantrum.

“He can do whatever the Hell He wants... because He’s God”...

And so can Evil Eye, apparently.

I do believe we had this conversation as I introduced a sock called “James Dalton” because I was sick of debating without rebuttal... so I went on as a noob and discussed this very thing with “whosoever” would bite...

And lookey here...

Deja Vu Link

And she trounced you in your dirty sock, too.

You're quite comfortable deceiving others...with who you are and what you "preach". Deceiver.

[Tambora]

Why is context...

Ummm, to say that Christ's death was salvation for all, and then say not all get that salvation is not context, but contradiction.

Either all mankind got salvation due to Christ's death, or not all of mankind got salvation due to Christ's death.
(And by 'salvation' is meant eternal salvation, not just a saving as Israel was saved during the parting of the Red Sea.)