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  • And if not picking up a paperclip and returning it to the proper owner could be called sin. Sins of commission and ommission.

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    • Originally posted by TimLutz View Post
      Genesis 15:4-6
      New King James Version (NKJV)
      4*And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.” 5*Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”

      6*And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

      Posted from the TOL App!
      "This one shall not be your heir but the one who will come from your own body shall be your heir." I am glad you have quoted Genesis 15:4 yourself. Now the question is, do you understand what you have quoted? The text is about Ishmael who had come from Abraham's own body. Nevertheless, "this one shall not be your heir." Then Isaac was born from Abraham's own body. Then Abraham's descendants through Isaac aka Jacob became the heir. Now, can you please tell me whom is the text about as the descendants of Abraham through Isaac as being the heir? Bet your best here and speak without preconceived notions. Who is the heir in this text of God's Word?

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      • Ahem. So where does it say Ishmael? And if so then the Jewish nation is not the chosen people. And we are both lost.

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        • Originally posted by TimLutz View Post
          Final aside. Paul was not allowed (trusted) to fellowship with the Jerusalem church for twenty years after his conversion. He was leading them? Not quite.

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          For 20 years! Paul was never allowed to fellowship with the Sect of the Nazarenes in Jerusalem. James the head of the Sect and all the Apostles of Jesus never trusted him. For Paul they were false apostles preaching a different gospel about a different Jesus. Read II Corinthians 11:4-6, 13.

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          • Originally posted by TimLutz View Post
            It is the seal of election. And good works are beside not sinning. As in giving and helping. An acceptable blood sacrifice has to be made to attone for sin.

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            No blood sacrifice either of an animal or of a man is acceptable to atone for sin. No one can die for the sins of another. (Ezek. 18:4,20)

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            • Originally posted by TimLutz View Post
              And if not picking up a paperclip and returning it to the proper owner could be called sin. Sins of commission and ommission.

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              Please, now you are exaggerating, unless you are speaking metaphorically.

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              • Originally posted by TimLutz View Post
                Ahem. So where does it say Ishmael? And if so then the Jewish nation is not the chosen people. And we are both lost.

                Posted from the TOL App!
                Ahem! Read Genesis 17:19-22. Ishmael would be blessed but God's Covenant would be with the heir aka descendants from Isaac that would be born of Sarah and not of the slave woman.

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                • Bereshis 15:1-6
                  Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
                  15*After these things the Devar Hashem came unto Avram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Avram; I am thy mogen, and thy exceeding great sachar (reward).
                  2*And Avram said, Adonoi Hashem, what wilt Thou give me, since I go childless, and the Ben Meshek of my Bais is this Eliezer of Dameshek (Damascus)?
                  3*And Avram said, See, to me Thou hast given no zera; and, hinei, one born in my bais is my yoresh (heir).
                  4*And, hinei, the Devar Hashem came unto him saying, This shall not be thy yoresh; but he that shall come forth out of thine own body shall be thy yoresh.
                  5*And He brought him forth outside, and said, Look now toward Shomayim, and count the kokhavim, if thou be able to number them; and He said unto him, So shall thy zera be.
                  6*And he believed in Hashem; and He credited [emunah (faith)] to him as tzedakah (righteousness)
                  Does not say that there either.

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                  • Originally posted by TimLutz View Post
                    Bereshis 15:1-6
                    Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
                    15*After these things the Devar Hashem came unto Avram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Avram; I am thy mogen, and thy exceeding great sachar (reward).
                    2*And Avram said, Adonoi Hashem, what wilt Thou give me, since I go childless, and the Ben Meshek of my Bais is this Eliezer of Dameshek (Damascus)?
                    3*And Avram said, See, to me Thou hast given no zera; and, hinei, one born in my bais is my yoresh (heir).
                    4*And, hinei, the Devar Hashem came unto him saying, This shall not be thy yoresh; but he that shall come forth out of thine own body shall be thy yoresh.
                    5*And He brought him forth outside, and said, Look now toward Shomayim, and count the kokhavim, if thou be able to number them; and He said unto him, So shall thy zera be.
                    6*And he believed in Hashem; and He credited [emunah (faith)] to him as tzedakah (righteousness)
                    Does not say that there either.

                    Posted from the TOL App!
                    No wonder you have chosen a parrot for your atavah.

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                    • Cannot see fish decoy? So you stand along against 1500 years of understanding of a passage. BM you are just one lost individual.

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                      • Originally posted by TimLutz View Post
                        Cannot see fish decoy? So you stand along against 1500 years of understanding of a passage. BM you are just one lost individual.

                        Posted from the TOL App!
                        ...trying to save those who can never find themselves.

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                        • Originally posted by Ben Masada View Post
                          ...trying to save those who can never find themselves.
                          Ishmael not the heir

                          Genesis 15:4
                          New King James Version (NKJV)
                          4*And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.”

                          As it was exampled that the two shall become one as husband as wife. Not whoever comes along. Hagar could not produce a heir.
                          As can be noted in the following God backing up Sarah also underlines this point.

                          Genesis 17:17-22
                          New King James Version (NKJV)
                          17*Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, “Shall a child be born to a man who is one hundred years old? And shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?” 18*And Abraham said to God, “Oh, that Ishmael might live before You!”

                          19*Then God said: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him. 20*And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. 21*But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year.” 22*Then He finished talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

                          Genesis 21:8-14
                          New King James Version (NKJV)
                          Hagar and Ishmael Depart

                          8*So the child grew and was weaned. And Abraham made a great feast on the same day that Isaac was weaned.

                          9*And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, scoffing. 10*Therefore she said to Abraham, “Cast out this bondwoman and her son; for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, namely with Isaac.” 11*And the matter was very displeasing in Abraham’s sight because of his son.

                          12*But God said to Abraham, “Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of your bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac your seed shall be called. 13*Yet I will also make a nation of the son of the bondwoman, because he is your seed.”

                          14*So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water; and putting it on her shoulder, he gave it and the boy to Hagar, and sent her away. Then she departed and wandered in the Wilderness of Beersheba.

                          Genesis 21:20-26
                          New King James Version (NKJV)
                          20*So God was with the lad; and he grew and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. 21*He dwelt in the Wilderness of Paran; and his mother took a wife for him from the land of Egypt.

                          A Covenant with Abimelech

                          22*And it came to pass at that time that Abimelech and Phichol, the commander of his army, spoke to Abraham, saying, “God is with you in all that you do. 23*Now therefore, swear to me by God that you will not deal falsely with me, with my offspring, or with my posterity; but that according to the kindness that I have done to you, you will do to me and to the land in which you have dwelt.”

                          24*And Abraham said, “I will swear.”

                          25*Then Abraham rebuked Abimelech because of a well of water which Abimelech’s servants had seized. 26*And Abimelech said, “I do not know who has done this thing; you did not tell me, nor had I heard of it until today."

                          But back to the subject. We cannot be justified by the law. No one keeps it, period. And yes God accepts true repentance. But that also is an act of faith.

                          Genesis 15:6
                          New King James Version (NKJV)
                          6*And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

                          Habakkuk 2:2-4
                          New King James Version (NKJV)
                          The Just Live by Faith

                          2*Then the Lord answered me and said:

                          “Write the vision
                          And make it plain on tablets,
                          That he may run who reads it.
                          3*For the vision is yet for an appointed time;
                          But at the end it will speak, and it will not lie.
                          Though it tarries, wait for it;
                          Because it will surely come,
                          It will not tarry.
                          4*“Behold the proud,
                          His soul is not upright in him;
                          But the just shall live by his faith.

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                          • Originally posted by TimLutz View Post
                            Ishmael not the heir

                            But back to the subject. We cannot be justified by the law. No one keeps it, period. And yes God accepts true repentance. But that also is an act of faith.
                            Are you sure? Let us assume "A" keeps the Law and "B" goes by faith. "B" had a bad night and did not sleep well. As a result, as he took his car in the morning to go to work, he crossed the red light in a crowed intersection. Then
                            he had to choose either go to Court or pay a high bill for his transgression. He thought it through and decided to go to Court and play the grace card. He rationalized that being saved by the grace he was not under the Law. It didn't work. In the meantime, "A" was enjoying his peaceful state of mind for not even having to go through Court procedures because he obeyed the Law. Bottom line, "A" was justified for obeying the Law and "B" had to fix his idea of how to get justified. Grace would not work. And the same is with all the commandments of the Law.
                            Last edited by Ben Masada; May 9th, 2014, 02:35 PM.

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                            • Originally posted by Ben Masada View Post
                              Are you sure? Let us assume "A" keeps the Law and "B" goes by faith. "B" had a bad night and did not sleep well. As a result, as he took his car in the morning to go to work, he crossed the red light in a crowed intersection. Then
                              he had to choose either go to Court or pay a high bill for his transgression. He thought it through and decided to go to Court and play the grace card. He rationalized that being saved by the grace he was not under the Law. It didn't work. In the meantime, "A" was enjoying his peaceful state of mind for not even having to go through Court procedures because he obeyed the Law. Bottom line, "A" was justified for obeying the Law and "B" had to fix his idea of how to get justified. Grace would not work. And the same is with all the commandments of the Law.
                              Does anyone for an hour keep the law perfectly? Read the law of the Bible. Just to keep the Ten Commandments perfectly is impossible. You could even sin in your sleep.
                              But to say that we do as we please and do not care what God wants that is not a pentatent heart. Remember what God requires over sacrifice.

                              Habakkuk 2:2-4
                              New King James Version (NKJV)
                              The Just Live by Faith

                              2*Then the Lord answered me and said:

                              “Write the vision
                              And make it plain on tablets,
                              That he may run who reads it.
                              3*For the vision is yet for an appointed time;
                              But at the end it will speak, and it will not lie.
                              Though it tarries, wait for it;
                              Because it will surely come,
                              It will not tarry.
                              4*“Behold the proud,
                              His soul is not upright in him;
                              But the just shall live by his faith.

                              Now let us talk of Grace. Which is the gift of salvation. So do you earn your salvation by doing what is normally expected from you? To be perfect is the entrance fee. Never having sinned. Unless you receive Grace. So are you ready for the verses on Grace in the Old Testament? Starts with Abraham.

                              Posted from the TOL App!

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                              • [QUOTE=TimLutz;3892336]
                                Does anyone for an hour keep the law perfectly? Read the law of the Bible. Just to keep the Ten Commandments perfectly is impossible. You could even sin in your sleep.
                                God knows that we are humans. To break the Law is human; to reject the Law is insurrection. If we break the Law there is a way to set things right with God so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow. All we need is to repent and return to obedience. Read Isaiah 1:18,19.

                                But to say that we do as we please and do not care what God wants that is not a pentatent heart. Remember what God requires over sacrifice.
                                God requires no sacrifice to have our sins forgiven. Sacrifices were allowed to be used for two reasons: First because, after 430 years as slaves in a land of pagans they could not have an idea of a religion without sacrifice. Not to allow the sacrifices of animals it would prove impossible to take the Israelites out of Egypt. And the second reason was prophetical. To foretell the Scapegoat in Israel making atonement for Judah in terms of the Divine rejection of Israel and confirmation of Judah as God's People. (Psalm 78:67-69)

                                Habakkuk 2:2-4 New King James Version (NKJV) The Just Live by Faith
                                There is no difference between faith and the Law. If one claims faith without obeying the Law, he is lost. Therefore, the just is saved by obeying the Law.

                                Now let us talk of Grace. Which is the gift of salvation. So do you earn your salvation by doing what is normally expected from you? To be perfect is the entrance fee. Never having sinned. Unless you receive Grace. So are you ready for the verses on Grace in the Old Testament? Starts with Abraham.
                                As Abraham was justified by his good works aka obedience to the Law, this proves that the giving of the Law was God's giving grace for man to know good from evil and get saved by obeying God's Word. (James 2:21)

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