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REPORT: God's plan of salvation

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  • [QUOTE=Ben Masada;3893182]
    Originally posted by TimLutz View Post

    God knows that we are humans. To break the Law is human; to reject the Law is insurrection. If we break the Law there is a way to set things right with God so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow. All we need is to repent and return to obedience. Read Isaiah 1:18,19.



    God requires no sacrifice to have our sins forgiven. Sacrifices were allowed to be used for two reasons: First because, after 430 years as slaves in a land of pagans they could not have an idea of a religion without sacrifice. Not to allow the sacrifices of animals it would prove impossible to take the Israelites out of Egypt. And the second reason was prophetical. To foretell the Scapegoat in Israel making atonement for Judah in terms of the Divine rejection of Israel and confirmation of Judah as God's People. (Psalm 78:67-69)



    There is no difference between faith and the Law. If one claims faith without obeying the Law, he is lost. Therefore, the just is saved by obeying the Law.



    As Abraham was justified by his good works aka obedience to the Law, this proves that the giving of the Law was God's giving grace for man to know good from evil and get saved by obeying God's Word. (James 2:21)

    & So I say to you BM.
    That in order to be justified to God. You either.
    A. Never sin.
    B. Rely on forgiveness you are not entitled to or could earn.
    A. Is as you say, not normal.
    B. Is grace.



    Posted from the TOL App!

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    • [QUOTE=TimLutz;3893449]
      Originally posted by Ben Masada View Post

      So I say to you BM. That in order to be justified to God. You either.
      A. Never sin.
      B. Rely on forgiveness you are not entitled to or could earn.
      A. Is as you say, not normal.
      B. Is grace.
      None of the above. None because what you mean by "B Is grace" you mean without the Law and, to me, there is no grace without the Law as the Law itself was given as a result of God's grace.

      Comment


      • [QUOTE=Ben Masada;3894803]
        Originally posted by TimLutz View Post

        None of the above. None because what you mean by "B Is grace" you mean without the Law and, to me, there is no grace without the Law as the Law itself was given as a result of God's grace.
        Seems you like to add things to what I say as usual BM.

        So you deserve forgiveness?

        And wondering.
        Do you prove by science your beliefs and base it on scripture or rumor?

        And while doing a Bible group study ran across this on Eli.
        So. Just when did God stop asking for sacrifice to atone for sin?

        Shmuel Alef 3:11-15
        Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
        11*And Hashem said to Shmuel, Hinei, I am doing a thing in Yisroel, at which both the oznayim of every one that heareth it shall tingle.
        12*In that day I will perform against Eli all things which I have spoken concerning his Bais; from beginning even to the end.
        13*For I have told him that I will judge his Bais ad olam for the avon (iniquity) which he knoweth; because his banim brought klalot (curses) upon themselves, and he restrained them not.
        14*And therefore I have sworn unto the Bais Eli, that there shall be no kapporah for the avon Bais Eli by zevach nor minchah ad olam.
        15*And Shmuel lay until boker, and opened the dlatot Beis Hashem. And Shmuel feared to show Eli the mareh (vision).
        Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
        Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2008, 2010, 2011 by Artists for Israel International

        Add parallelX

        1 Samuel 3:11-15
        New International Version (NIV)
        11*And the Lord said to Samuel: “See, I am about to do something in Israel that will make the ears of everyone who hears about it tingle. 12*At that time I will carry out against Eli everything I spoke against his family—from beginning to end. 13*For I told him that I would judge his family forever because of the sin he knew about; his sons blasphemed God,[a] and he failed to restrain them. 14*Therefore I swore to the house of Eli, ‘The guilt of Eli’s house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.’”

        15*Samuel lay down until morning and then opened the doors of the house of the Lord. He was afraid to tell Eli the vision.

        Posted from the TOL App!

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        • [QUOTE=TimLutz;3895105]
          Originally posted by Ben Masada View Post


          And while doing a Bible group study ran across this on Eli.
          So. Just when did God stop asking for sacrifice to atone for sin?
          I remember to have explained to you before that God never asked for sacrifices. That sacrifices were allowed into the religion of Israel to make it easier for Moses to get them out of Egypt where they had spent 430 years, enough time to get familiarized with the concept that a religion to be a religion had to make use of animal sacrifices. The thing stuck and remained so up to the final destruction of the Temple by the Romans in the year 70 ACE.

          Now, to answer your question above, read Jeremiah 7:22 "For I spoke not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices." It means in other words that, you have added them at your own free will. Never mind that throughout the Scriptures the leaders of the People would use them as a requirement of the Lord but only to enhance the concept of the divine power of religions. Anyways, some thing was found among the learned ones that the sacrifices could be used within the prophetic concept to foretell events like the one of the Scapegoat symbolized by Israel being taken to Azazel toward the desert through the East to Assyria.

          Another classic demonstration of God's aversion to sacrifices is in Isaiah 1:11,13. "To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? says the Lord. I am full of the burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks or of lambs or of goats. Bring no more vain oblations as incense is an abomination unto me."

          Just another one: It is in Samuel 15:22. "And Samuel said, Has the Lord any delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifices of rams."

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          • [QUOTE=Ben Masada;3897102]
            Originally posted by TimLutz View Post

            I remember to have explained to you before that God never asked for sacrifices. That sacrifices were allowed into the religion of Israel to make it easier for Moses to get them out of Egypt where they had spent 430 years, enough time to get familiarized with the concept that a religion to be a religion had to make use of animal sacrifices. The thing stuck and remained so up to the final destruction of the Temple by the Romans in the year 70 ACE.

            Now, to answer your question above, read Jeremiah 7:22 "For I spoke not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices." It means in other words that, you have added them at your own free will. Never mind that throughout the Scriptures the leaders of the People would use them as a requirement of the Lord but only to enhance the concept of the divine power of religions. Anyways, some thing was found among the learned ones that the sacrifices could be used within the prophetic concept to foretell events like the one of the Scapegoat symbolized by Israel being taken to Azazel toward the desert through the East to Assyria.

            Another classic demonstration of God's aversion to sacrifices is in Isaiah 1:11,13. "To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? says the Lord. I am full of the burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks or of lambs or of goats. Bring no more vain oblations as incense is an abomination unto me."

            Just another one: It is in Samuel 15:22. "And Samuel said, Has the Lord any delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifices of rams."
            So God is obligated/forced to forgive?

            Posted from the TOL App!

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            • Originally posted by TimLutz View Post

              So God is obligated/forced to forgive?

              Posted from the TOL App!
              love can do that
              a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

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              • If it is forced. Then can it be called love?

                Posted from the TOL App!

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                • [QUOTE=TimLutz;3897723]
                  Originally posted by Ben Masada View Post

                  So God is obligated/forced to forgive?

                  Posted from the TOL App!
                  The Lord has nothing to forgive any one for. If we offend some one, only that person can forgive what we have done. Remember what Jesus himself said in Matthew 5:23,24. If you come to the altar to get forgiveness for some thing and remembers that some one else has an issue against you, leave every thing behind and go set things right with your neighbor and only then you can return and continue with your plead. It means that there is no forgiveness from God if we first don't get it from whom we have offended.

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                  • Originally posted by chrysostom View Post
                    love can do that
                    But we cannot get forgiveness for lack of love. Love is an emotion and emotions are not subject to the Law. Forgiveness must be achieved from whom we have offended as a result of respect. Respect yes, it is even demanded of us to be able to live in society.

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                    • Originally posted by TimLutz View Post
                      If it is forced. Then can it be called love?

                      Posted from the TOL App!
                      No, love can't be forced. Love is controlled by emotions.

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                      • So does God love us?

                        Posted from the TOL App!

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                        • Originally posted by TimLutz View Post
                          So does God love us?

                          Posted from the TOL App!
                          Not in the sense of man's love controlled by emotions. God is a Spiritual Being. He does not love the way man does. God's love is akin to the natural laws.

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                          • Originally posted by Ben Masada View Post
                            Not in the sense of man's love controlled by emotions. God is a Spiritual Being. He does not love the way man does. God's love is akin to the natural laws.
                            You mean your god !

                            Posted from the TOL App!
                            "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
                            preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
                            called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
                            a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

                            Charles Spurgeon !

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                            • Originally posted by Ben Masada View Post
                              Not in the sense of man's love controlled by emotions. God is a Spiritual Being. He does not love the way man does. God's love is akin to the natural laws.
                              Better explain that one a bit deeper. So does God have emotions?

                              Posted from the TOL App!

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                              • Originally posted by TimLutz View Post
                                Better explain that one a bit deeper. So does God have emotions?

                                Posted from the TOL App!
                                That's not what I said; and I believe my post was pretty much clear. Our love is based on our emotions as humans. God cannot be compared to humans. Read Isaiah 46:5. God is a Spirit. (John 4:24)

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