JESUS IS NOT YHWH

[marhig]

For me, if I was on a Unit-Arian website, not wanting to make waves, I'd avoid threads where that was the conversation. There are a few Unit-Arians that think we 600 aren't Christians and make a point of saying so on TOL. You have to understand the debate in TOL context. Joining in, without realizing the accusatory both ways, would have you not realizing the whole picture.

Making waves is something I'm not worried about, to defend the truth. And we can't judge everyone and judge one group as all the same. God looks at the heart first and foremost.

I believe Him too, all of scriptures. John 1:1 is clear enough.

Then maybe you should also believe Jesus when he says that God is his God and he says this not only whilst he was here on earth, but also when he had gone back to God. And John 1:1 is clear enough, the word is God, and the word was made flesh through Jesus Christ. Because God was in him reconciling the world into himself. And Christ Jesus said, he only speaks what he father gives him to speak. And that the word is the father's word and not his.

Matthew 10:19 but the context is to the Apostles being arrested. The disciples had been with the Lord Jesus Christ 3 years, learning 24/7. They weren't ignorant. Directions to us, have always been to study. 2 Timothy 3:16

The disciples didn't have the power until they were blessed with the Holy Spirit. We can read the scriptures all day long, but we need God to open our eyes and ears.

And as I said studying the scriptures is good, but we don't need to go to college or have a high flying education to know God, the Holy Spirit will teach us all things. And God will give us understanding in the scriptures. He is the author of the book.

Yes. The way to be more like Jesus, is to spend more time with Jesus. That means reading and studying your Bible. He plants His Spirit in everyone who is a new creation, yet scripture tells us to study it. 2 Timothy 2:15 2 Timothy 3:16 Acts 17:11

I've never said it's wrong to study the Bible, I said we don't need to go to college to know God. And going to college and studying isn't the be all and end all, we won't truly know God until we are born of God.

Agree, but when the Lord Jesus Christ answered the Samaritan woman, when she said almost the same thing you did, He told her the day was coming and now here, when just the one would no longer suffice. John 4:19-22

Our Lord Jesus said, that God is Spirit, and those who truly worship the father worship him in Spirit and in truth.

 

[marhig]

they are so smart and complicated and educated. so they don't understand simple word of Jesus such as above statement.

Yes it's not having an education, it's having a soft heart, and loving God with our all and living by his will. And God will enlighten us in his time.

It was Christ Jesus who opened the understanding of the apostles, not going to college.

 

[Lon]

Making waves is something I'm not worried about, to defend the truth. And we can't judge everyone and judge one group as all the same. God looks at the heart first and foremost.

This would be your desire.

Then maybe you should also believe Jesus ...

:nono: Condescending. I believe Him.

...we won't truly know God until we are born of God.

Yet, here we are and we disagree on who He says He is....

Our Lord Jesus said, that God is Spirit, and those who truly worship the father worship him in Spirit and in truth.

Both.

 

[marhig]

This would be your desire.



:nono: Condescending. I believe Him.


Yet, here we are and we disagree on who He says He is....

Both.

Why is it condescending to say that is right to believe Jesus when he says that God is his God? That's exactly what he says himself, whilst he was here in this world and when he had gone back to God too?.

 

[Lon]

Why is it condescending to say that is right to believe Jesus when he says that God is his God? That's exactly what he says himself, whilst he was here in this world and when he had gone back to God too?.

I believe Him. Still Triune. -Lon

 

[marhig]

I believe Him. Still Triune. -Lon

Ok, well we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[KingdomRose]

Great. That person is me.

:think: ...uhm, you ▲just▲ said it was....



There are tons of scriptures that address you. John 1:1 encapsulates our belief in one verse as well as addresses your question directly: "Both."

In the flesh, He has a God. He talks with His Father on the earth. John 8:58, "Before Abraham, I AM." John 14:9 John 20:28 etc. etc.

John 1:1 is seriously misunderstood, and John himself would say to you that he was making a distinction between THE God, Almighty, and "god" that was the Word. A "god" in John's day could mean human judges (as brought out by Jesus in chapter 10), it could mean a king or other high official, it could be anyone of importance. John referred to the Word as a god, not God Almighty. The Christian Greek Scriptures have been around for 2,000 years and you STILL haven't gotten the correct understanding of John's words at John 1:1!!! How sad and foolish.

He HAS A GOD even now in heaven....not just when he was on the earth. He calls his Father "my God" in the Revelation, given to John long after he had returned to heaven. You didn't know that? Awwww...well you do now.

"He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of MY GOD, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of MY GOD, and the name of the city of MY GOD, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from MY GOD...." (Revelation 3:12, NASB)


Now, what does the jumbled up mess of a translation of John 8:58 tell us? It's really hard to say when you use versions that include that mangled up word order! "Before Abraham I Am"?? What kind of English is that? No, Jesus said "ego eimi," which was used hundreds of times by himself AND other people, and not one other time did anyone translate it in such a twisted manner. The meaning was: "I existed before Abraham was born." It did not mean that Jesus was quoting from Exodus 3:14 and claiming to be YHWH, as anyone knows who has studied what "I Am" in Exodus means and how it can be worded in other ways.

Here is a list of Bible versions that do not render John 8:58 as "Before Abraham was born, I Am." They all render it as "Before Abraham was born, I have been," or, "I came into being," or words to that effect:

1) The Living New Testament
2) The 20th Century New Testament
3) Noyes, G.R. New Testament
4) Parker, P.G. Clarified New Testament
5) Cotton Patch Version (1970)
6) Good News for the World (1969)
7) The Complete Bible, An American Translation, Goodspeed
8) New Believers Bible, New Living Translation
9) The New Testament, C.B. Williams
10)The Book, New Testament
11)The Living Bible
12)Lattimore
13)The New Testament, from the Peshitta Text, Lamsa
14)An American Translation, In the Language of Today, Beck
15)The Unvarnished New Testament
16)The New Testament, Kleist & Lilly
17)The New Testament, Noyes
18)A Translation of the Four Gospels, Lewis
19)The Syriac New Testament, Murdock
20)The Curetonian Version of the Four Gospels, Burkitt & The Old Georgian Version of the Gospel of John, Blake & Briere

(See Robert Angle, Ruminations.) There are more, but I think you can get the idea that the KJV is wrong in the way it has rendered John 8:58.

Now, what are you trying to say by citing John 14:9? It simply shows that Jesus and the Father are in union with each other. They think the same way. Did you miss the next verse? It says: "Do you not believe that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me? The things I say to you men I do not speak of my own originality; but the Father who remains in union with me is doing his works." It sure looks like there are two different Persons here, and the Father is the one doing the orchestrating. but you don't read surrounding verses, do you?

Same with John 20:28. What flimsy evidence you provide to show Jesus is Jehovah or even on a par with Jehovah. You take a sudden expression of amazement from one of Jesus' Apostles and convert it into an example of the Apostle calling Jesus God! How silly. Haven't you ever said, "My God!" when you saw something that totally amazed you? Please. Another example of you not paying attention to surrounding verses! Just three verses later John writes about Jesus---not being "God," but the Son of God:

"These have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that, because of believing, you may have life by means of his name."

Your theology severely LACKS.

 

[KingdomRose]

I believe Him. Still Triune. -Lon

You would believe a trinitarian if he said the sky was green.

 

[daqq]

You would believe a trinitarian if he said the sky was green.

Lol, that is really what this is too:

The Creed:
"The sky is tripartite green, blue, and white."

The dogmatic injunction:
"And if you will not believe it you cannot be in our club, ( = "saved")."

Response from someone with a working brain:

"But I looked to the sky this evening and it was red."

Upper echelon response:

"Uneducated heretic!"
"The sky is Tri-Une green, blue, and white!"
"We know it to be true because we have faith! Unlike you!"

Silent response from someone with a working brain:

"Cultus Maximus" . . . :chuckle:

 

[Eagles Wings]

Lol, that is really what this is too:

The Creed:
"The sky is tripartite green, blue, and white."

The dogmatic injunction:
"And if you will not believe it you cannot be in our club, ( = "saved")."

Response from someone with a working brain:

"But I looked to the sky this evening and it was red."

Upper echelon response:

"Uneducated heretic!"
"The sky is Tri-Une green, blue, and white!"
"We know it to be true because we have faith! Unlike you!"

Silent response from someone with a working brain:

"Cultus Maximus" . . . :chuckle:

Lots of verbiage, little sense.

 

[Lon]

John 1:1 is seriously misunderstood

Not really interested. For the thread: I can read Greek. You can't fancy dance to change my mind. You are 600 to one. Most of those 600 can tell you why they are triune and what John 1:1 says. 1 in 600 is NOT "seriously misunderstood." :nono:

You would believe a trinitarian if he said the sky was green.

Yes, if 600 said it and you said it was chartreuse. The Northern Lights are often green and fill the night sky, and any of the sky behind them and to the sides of them is indeed green. :noway:

and John himself would say to you that he was making a distinction between THE God, Almighty, and "god" that was the Word.

Oh yeah, I forgot the Kingdom Hall has prophets too. Ones that CANNOT read Greek (nor apparently predict accurately His return). Meh, I'm not violent, but I'd have used Nerf rocks and stoned every last one of them.

A "god" in John's day could mean human judges (as brought out by Jesus in chapter 10), it could mean a king or other high official, it could be anyone of importance. John referred to the Word as a god, not God Almighty. The Christian Greek Scriptures have been around for 2,000 years and you STILL haven't gotten the correct understanding of John's words at John 1:1!!! How sad and foolish.

I don't care what you think is sad or foolish. I can read the language. You can't. That is what is really sad and foolish. You are using TOL for a JW platform and soapboxing. NOTHING of anything you are posting here is of any substance. Sorry, it is brainwashing and assertion.

He HAS A GOD even now in heaven....not just when he was on the earth. He calls his Father "my God" in the Revelation, given to John long after he had returned to heaven. You didn't know that? Awwww...well you do now.

:doh: I had said I did already in thread. Yes, He had a God. His 'body' is in heaven now too. The worst thing about JW's and other Unit-Arians is that they never bothered to find out what Trinitarians believed BEFORE they rejected it. It is a rejection from ignorance.

"He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of MY GOD, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of MY GOD, and the name of the city of MY GOD, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from MY GOD...." (Revelation 3:12, NASB)

And? I'm Tri- AND -une. You? Just dualism and multigods, including yourselves. I'm not god. Don't bow to me. Just a man.

Now, what does the jumbled up mess of a translation of John 8:58 tell us?

You can ask one of 600 of us, like myself or another, OR you can go ask another JW as 2 among 1200 and have a pow wow of two and decide. :think: After you've done that, 4 years from now, I'll have talked to each and every one of the 1200 but would have come to the conclusion, long before that, that you two are a bit odd with strange private interpretations.

It's really hard to say when you use versions that include that mangled up word order!

:think:

"Before Abraham I Am"?? What kind of English is that? No, Jesus said "ego eimi," which was used hundreds of times by himself AND other people, and not one other time did anyone translate it in such a twisted manner. The meaning was: "I existed before Abraham was born." It did not mean that Jesus was quoting from Exodus 3:14 and claiming to be YHWH, as anyone knows who has studied what "I Am" in Exodus means and how it can be worded in other ways.

Show me in Greek or don't bother. Post the Greek word for word then type Greek to explain it to me.

Here is a list of Bible versions that do not render John 8:58 as "Before Abraham was born, I Am." They all render it as "Before Abraham was born, I have been," or, "I came into being," or words to that effect:

1) The Living New Testament
2) The 20th Century New Testament
3) Noyes, G.R. New Testament
4) Parker, P.G. Clarified New Testament
5) Cotton Patch Version (1970)
6) Good News for the World (1969)
7) The Complete Bible, An American Translation, Goodspeed
8) New Believers Bible, New Living Translation
9) The New Testament, C.B. Williams
10)The Book, New Testament
11)The Living Bible
12)Lattimore
13)The New Testament, from the Peshitta Text, Lamsa
14)An American Translation, In the Language of Today, Beck
15)The Unvarnished New Testament
16)The New Testament, Kleist & Lilly
17)The New Testament, Noyes
18)A Translation of the Four Gospels, Lewis
19)The Syriac New Testament, Murdock
20)The Curetonian Version of the Four Gospels, Burkitt & The Old Georgian Version of the Gospel of John, Blake & Briere

(See Robert Angle, Ruminations.) There are more, but I think you can get the idea that the KJV is wrong in the way it has rendered John 8:58.

:sigh: Almost all of them are 'paraphrases.' Look it up.

in union[/B] with each other. They think the same way. Did you miss the next verse? It says: "Do you not believe that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me? The things I say to you men I do not speak of my own originality; but the Father who remains in union with me is doing his works." It sure looks like there are two different Persons here, and the Father is the one doing the orchestrating. but you don't read surrounding verses, do you?

You are the JW. I read my bible all by myself when I was young. I knew what the Lord Jesus Christ was saying.
"When you have seen Me, you have seen the Father." Sorry, it is so simple a child can understand it.
Me: "Look kids. Jesus said when His disciples had seen Him, who did He say they'd see?"
Kids: "The Father!"
Me: "That's right! Who then, did they see?"
Kids: "The Father!"
Me: "That's right!"


Sadly, when it comes to you...
You: "Kids, who does Jesus say His disciples see, when they see the Father?"
Kids: "The Father!"
You: "Who then did the disciples see?"
Kids: "The Father!"
You: "No kids, Jesus didn't mean that. He only said that, but He didn't really mean those words exactly. You see, in the Kingdom Hall, we cannot believe God's word the way those pagan Trinitarians do. We believe that Jesus was simply displaying some traits of God, not that he was God. He didn't really mean what he said and we JW's have to try to make sure you understand our doctrine. That's why we need the WatchTower studies. Without them, you'd think the bible was actually saying that when you or the disciples saw Jesus, that you'd seen the Father. That simply isn't true."

Same with John 20:28. What flimsy evidence you provide to show Jesus is Jehovah or even on a par with Jehovah.

:think: John 20:28 Thomas said to Jesus, "You are the Lord of me and God of me!" :think:

You take a sudden expression of amazement from one of Jesus' Apostles

Er, this is blasphemy. I HATE this answer from JW's. EVERY TIME they call Thomas a blasphemer.
That is how bad JW theology has gotten: They would rather put blasphemous words of "Oh my G--!" in Thomas' mouth, than admit their sad little cult is wrong (again).

:think: John 20:28 Thomas said to Jesus, "You are the Lord of me and God of me!" :think:

and convert it into an example of the Apostle calling Jesus God! How silly.

:think: John 20:28 Thomas said to Jesus, "You are the Lord of me and God of me!" :think:

Haven't you ever said, "My God!" when you saw something that totally amazed you?

:nono: Never. Its taking His name in vain. JW's and apparently you with them, would rather blaspheme God, than admit it is blasphemy.

Please.

:nono: Taking His name in vain.

Another example of you not paying attention to surrounding verses! Just three verses later John writes about Jesus---not being "God," but the Son of God:

"These have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that, because of believing, you may have life by means of his name."

Hello! ---- JW! -------------------- ............ I am "Tri-" AND "-une!" (not that you'll get that )

Your theology severely LACKS.

▲ One of ours does▲

 

[daqq]

Lots of verbiage, little sense.

Of course, because for some, the sky can never be allowed to be red.

 

[Lon]

Lots of verbiage, little sense.

Daqq. Stop talking to me or indirectly about me. If EW hadn't posted, I'd not have known. You are not allowed to talk to me OR about me. That was our agreement and you are breaking that covenant. Your peanut gallery comments are unnecessary and frivolous, meaningless. Your evil pronouncements upon me last month are undone by this ill-behavior. You can't even keep your word.

This is cowardly, backstabbing, and gossip and you are remiss in your walk and word, for doing it.

 

[daqq]

Daqq. Stop talking to me or indirectly about me. If EW hadn't posted, I'd not have known. You are not allowed to talk to me OR about me. That was our agreement and you are breaking that covenant. Your peanut gallery comments are unnecessary and frivolous, meaningless. Your evil pronouncements upon me last month are undone by this ill-behavior. You can't even keep your word.

This is cowardly, backstabbing, and gossip and you are remiss in your walk and word, for doing it.

How many times must I ask you to leave me alone?
I never said anything to you and was already posting in this thread.
And I certainly have no "covenant" with death.

 

[daqq]

To everyone else:

This is speaking of the ideology behind the various (Trinitarian) CREEDAL systems:

Lol, that is really what this is too:

The Creed:
"The sky is tripartite green, blue, and white."

The dogmatic injunction:
"And if you will not believe it you cannot be in our club, ( = "saved")."

Response from someone with a working brain:

"But I looked to the sky this evening and it was red."

Upper echelon response:

"Uneducated heretic!"
"The sky is Tri-Une green, blue, and white!"
"We know it to be true because we have faith! Unlike you!"

Silent response from someone with a working brain:

"Cultus Maximus" . . . :chuckle:

It really has nothing to do with any one single person unless of course he or she considers themselves to be "upper echelon".

 

[freelight]

God is the One Primal Pure Light...........

God is the One Primal Pure Light...........

Lol, that is really what this is too:

The Creed:
"The sky is tripartite green, blue, and white."

The dogmatic injunction:
"And if you will not believe it you cannot be in our club, ( = "saved")."

Response from someone with a working brain:

"But I looked to the sky this evening and it was red."

Upper echelon response:

"Uneducated heretic!"
"The sky is Tri-Une green, blue, and white!"
"We know it to be true because we have faith! Unlike you!"

Silent response from someone with a working brain:

"Cultus Maximus" . . . :chuckle:

And yet 'God' always and forever in the original Hebrew revelation is ever ONE (echad). - you can dualize, trinitize, quadrify or grant any multiple or form to the One Deity, and He remains forever 'echad'. The One. The All.

In reality, the Absolute itself is Singular.....it is the Infinite One Unity, out of which all multiples flow into the great multiplicity of CREATION. This is all there is,....Creator and Creation,...and all within infinity, is but the interplay, interface of Spirit, Mind, Matter, Energy...within space allowing for every phenomena in the realms of conditional existence to play out their potentials and possibilities. This is Creation.

Since only One Universal Reality IS,.....all else is but an extension, reflection, expression, permutation of that ONE....all 'light' & 'shadow'....'reality' and 'illusion'. - now as far as trinities go,...we do have trinity patterns in nature, since they reflect some feature of the divine nature, its associative functions and operations. So, one may conceptualize a tri-une Godhead if you like,...but there are different ways to interface, relate and contextualize such an association.

Back to the analogy of a tri-une 'God' of 3 colors, or the sky being tri-colored. God being 'LIGHT'....includes the purest white light and every colour imaginable in the colour-spectrum,....so that God is more than just a primary tri-une color company,....He is the pure Light out of which comes the 3-fold trinity FLAME, and the 7-rays (7 spirit-expressions of Deity)...and all colour streams therefrom that comprise every possible vibration and frequency of light thru-out Creation. So...'God' includes the very essence or void of pure blackness(darkness) and the pure primodorial white light that emerges from that infinite VOID and then all frequencies of light that extend unto INFINITY. So you cant just encapsulate 'God' into a trinity ('God' is more), although from a hierarchal overview, you can presume an original or Paradise Trinity existing (Universal Father, Eternal Son, Infinite Spirit)....from which ever y other order of existence is derived or governed thereby. The Urantia Book has a most wonderful concept of what it calls the 'Paradise Trinity' here, so it does accept a Tri-une Deity of supreme and ultimate power within the cosmic hierarchy.....certainly. Its associative relations however are explained a bit differently from a traditional-orthdox Christian concept however,....but knowing the greater context of these comparitive theologies is quite insightful. Especially when considering infinity-eternity....and eternity-infinity.

In pure recognition of the Universal One (prior to duality)....there is only 'God' as pure Spirit, Energy, Consciousness, LIGHT. Deity is in essence indivisible. All relative multiplicities within the diversity of Creation are but the one essence of Spirit and Consciousness creatively fragmenting, dividing, reflecting, refracting, extending, particularizing into various forms thru-out space-time-dimension, the infinite ONE experiencing within itself all relations.

 

[daqq]

And yet 'God' always and forever in the original Hebrew revelation is ever ONE (echad). - you can dualize, trinitize, quadrify or grant any multiple or form to the One Deity, and He remains forever 'echad'. The One. The All.

In reality, the Absolute itself is Singular.....it is the Infinite One Unity, out of which all multiples flow into the great multiplicity of CREATION. This is all there is,....Creator and Creation,...and all within infinity, is but the interplay, interface of Spirit, Mind, Matter, Energy...within space allowing for every phenomena in the realms of conditional existence to play out their potentials and possibilities. This is Creation.

Since only One Universal Reality IS,.....all else is but an extension, reflection, expression, permutation of that ONE....all 'light' & 'shadow'....'reality' and 'illusion'. - now as far as trinities go,...we do have trinity patterns in nature, since they reflect some feature of the divine nature, its associative functions and operations. So, one may conceptualize a tri-une Godhead if you like,...but there are different ways to interface, relate and contextualize such an association.

Back to the analogy of a tri-une 'God' of 3 colors, or the sky being tri-colored. God being 'LIGHT'....includes the purest white light and every colour imaginable in the colour-spectrum,....so that God is more than just a primary tri-une color company,....He is the pure Light out of which comes the 3-fold trinity FLAME, and the 7-rays (7 spirit-expressions of Deity)...and all colour streams therefrom that comprise every possible vibration and frequency of light thru-out Creation. So...'God' includes the very essence or void of pure blackness(darkness) and the pure primodorial white light that emerges from that infinite VOID and then all frequencies of light that extend unto INFINITY. So you cant just encapsulate 'God' into a trinity ('God' is more), although from a hierarchal overview, you can presume an original or Paradise Trinity existing (Universal Father, Eternal Son, Infinite Spirit)....from which ever y other order of existence is derived or governed thereby. The Urantia Book has a most wonderful concept of what it calls the 'Paradise Trinity' here, so it does accept a Tri-une Deity of supreme and ultimate power within the cosmic hierarchy.....certainly. Its associative relations however are explained a bit differently from a traditional-orthdox Christian concept however,....but knowing the greater context of these comparitive theologies is quite insightful. Especially when considering infinity-eternity....and eternity-infinity.

In pure recognition of the Universal One (prior to duality)....there is only 'God' as pure Spirit, Energy, Consciousness, LIGHT. Deity is in essence indivisible. All relative multiplicities within the diversity of Creation are but the one essence of Spirit and Consciousness creatively fragmenting, dividing, reflecting, refracting, extending, particularizing into various forms thru-out space-time-dimension, the infinite ONE experiencing within itself all relations.

The One Pure White Light:

https://www.helloclass.com/blog/dispersion-of-light/

Disperses into the color spectrum of the Rainbow.
But the White Light must enter and pass through a prism-temple.

 

[beameup]

The One Pure White Light:

Disperses into the color spectrum of the Rainbow.
But the White Light must enter and pass through a prism-temple.

:dizzy: ...... :kookoo:

 

[daqq]

:dizzy: ...... :kookoo:

Yes, of course, the sky can only be green, blue, and white, because you say so.
Anything else is "koo koo" . . . (Cultus Maximus) . . . :chuckle:

 

[marhig]

The One Pure White Light:

https://www.helloclass.com/blog/dispersion-of-light/

Disperses into the color spectrum of the Rainbow.
But the White Light must enter and pass through a prism-temple.

Daqq I love that, it's like Revelation, the white light is like the Spirit and the different colours are like the wisdom and understanding of God all beautiful but all different.