the church

KingdomRose

New member
Jesus went to preach to those who disobeyed a long time ago.

If Jesus did not preach to the spirits of people, how do you think he covered the sins of the WHOLE WORLD?

There are no spirits of PEOPLE conscious after death! People hear the preaching while they are alive!

"For the living know they will die; but THE DEAD DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING....Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for THERE IS NO ACTIVITY OR PLANNING OR KNOWLEDGE OR WISDOM IN SHEOL WHERE YOU ARE GOING." (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10, NASB)
 

KingdomRose

New member
The perfect example of what Jesus was talking about:He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

You have no proof that there was no cup- you think they really didn't have one?

You just don't want to think about it, do you. You just trample on the pearls. You are the one saying that this was some kind of Eucharist. It is up to you to prove that. You say on the one hand, "This is what it SAYS!" Then on the other hand, when it DOESN'T SAY SOMETHING, you say you're going to believe it anyway! Wake up.
 

KingdomRose

New member
How DO you explain that they did not recognize Him until He broke the bread, which according to you is just some common ordinary meal?
And you think MY explanation doesn't make sense?? :rotfl:

The exact time at which they recognized him isn't even important. Your interpretation of the whole scenario is comical. :crackup:
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
This is what The New Testament/Recovery Version, 1985, says in a footnote:

"The most acceptable [interpretation] according to the Scriptures is as follows: the spirits here refer not to the disembodied spirits of dead human beings but to the angels (angels are spirits--Heb.1:14) who fell through disobedience at Noah's time...

Satan "fell" before Adam was created and he took a third of the angels with him.

His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. (Revelation 12:4)​

Satan and his group existed before Jesus was born and Christ preached to them while Noah built his boat. Since then the demons tremble. (James 2:19)

We will judge the disobedient angels at the Last Day.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
I'm impressed with your effort on this.

Thanks; During my undergraduate while pursuing my BA in Religious Studies and BS in Computer Science, I bought and read straight through the vast majority of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers Series (7 volumes out of 10), as well as other select works like Eusebius' History. I also bought the next set: the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, but I've only read through select works in that series thus far. At the time I was primarily focused on the matter of Christology and the Trinity in the Ante-Nicene Church. So I'm a bit more studied on the Church Fathers than most, and I have a decent library on hand to research these matters.

However, it was well established in the early church that the Eucharist included the real Presence.

Well - that's the question, isn't it? I assert that it is not and have provided examples where they speak of the Eucharist as a metaphor and speak of the wine/blood and bread/flesh in figurative terms. You provided one early reference that looked like it might have suggested that this Early Church Father Ignatius maintained that the Eucharist literally transformed into flesh and blood - but this was clarified with context that he was addressing Docetism.

I'm open to considering more quotes on the matter - but please scrutinize the text a bit more and confirm that the Church Father in question is in fact speaking of the wine and bread literally transforming into blood and wine. Unfortunately, most people aren't willing to put in any real study with regards the Church Fathers - they simply like to assert that the Early Church taught this or that, and defend it with quotes that they took off of some website without taking the time to confirm that the quotes mean what they would like them to.

This is one of the reasons I took to reading the Church Fathers myself - so I could understand whether or not the Early Church Fathers had, from the outset, believed the Trinity, or if the Trinity was a later development and the Early Church Fathers had maintained other Christologies. Turns out that it is the latter. Of course - if you tell people this they go look up quotes online from Church Fathers they've never heard of, quotes that have been taken out of context so they don't really understand what is being said, post a large numbers of such quotes so that you can't reasonably address them all - and they say "see, the Church has always been Trinitarian!"

The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church says this: "In the Patristic period there was remarkably little in the way of controversy on the subject...That the Eucharist conveyed to the believer the Body and Blood of Christ was universally accepted from the first, and language was very commonly used which referred to the Eucharistic elements as themselves the Body and Blood. Even where the elements were spoken of as 'symbols' or 'antitypes', there was no intention of denying the reality of the Presence in the gifts...
The first controversies on the nature of the Eucharistic Presence date from the earlier Middle Ages. In the 9th century Paschasius Radbertus raised doubts as to the identity of Christ's Eucharistic Body...but won practically no support."

While I agree that there were no major controversies over the theology of the Eucharist (if we ignore Docetism and the Gnostics at any rate) in the Early Church, that does not mean that they taught the "Real Presence." We should not take silence on the matter as an affirmation of a latter theology; that is anachronistic. Rather, it must be established from their writings that they believed such.
 

brewmama

New member
The exact time at which they recognized him isn't even important. Your interpretation of the whole scenario is comical. :crackup:


What's really funny is how Protestants claim to go by the Bible over everything else, yet blatantly ignore so many things that they don't like.
 

brewmama

New member
Thanks; During my undergraduate while pursuing my BA in Religious Studies and BS in Computer Science, I bought and read straight through the vast majority of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers Series (7 volumes out of 10), as well as other select works like Eusebius' History. I also bought the next set: the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, but I've only read through select works in that series thus far. At the time I was primarily focused on the matter of Christology and the Trinity in the Ante-Nicene Church. So I'm a bit more studied on the Church Fathers than most, and I have a decent library on hand to research these matters.

Well - that's the question, isn't it? I assert that it is not and have provided examples where they speak of the Eucharist as a metaphor and speak of the wine/blood and bread/flesh in figurative terms. You provided one early reference that looked like it might have suggested that this Early Church Father Ignatius maintained that the Eucharist literally transformed into flesh and blood - but this was clarified with context that he was addressing Docetism.

I'm open to considering more quotes on the matter - but please scrutinize the text a bit more and confirm that the Church Father in question is in fact speaking of the wine and bread literally transforming into blood and wine. Unfortunately, most people aren't willing to put in any real study with regards the Church Fathers - they simply like to assert that the Early Church taught this or that, and defend it with quotes that they took off of some website without taking the time to confirm that the quotes mean what they would like them to.

This is one of the reasons I took to reading the Church Fathers myself - so I could understand whether or not the Early Church Fathers had, from the outset, believed the Trinity, or if the Trinity was a later development and the Early Church Fathers had maintained other Christologies. Turns out that it is the latter. Of course - if you tell people this they go look up quotes online from Church Fathers they've never heard of, quotes that have been taken out of context so they don't really understand what is being said, post a large numbers of such quotes so that you can't reasonably address them all - and they say "see, the Church has always been Trinitarian!"

While I agree that there were no major controversies over the theology of the Eucharist (if we ignore Docetism and the Gnostics at any rate) in the Early Church, that does not mean that they taught the "Real Presence." We should not take silence on the matter as an affirmation of a latter theology; that is anachronistic. Rather, it must be established from their writings that they believed such.

We could go around all day about this; you quote St Clement, I quote St. Clement, etc.

Justin Martyr: "And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία[the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.
And so on.


But part of the problem is your remark " Church Father in question is in fact speaking of the wine and bread literally transforming into blood and wine.. No one makes the claim that it literally turns into flesh and blood, because, obviously, to the naked eye and all other senses it does not. But they definitely taught the Real Presence. That is why I posted the part of what symbols and types mean in the Church. The question is NOT the literal transformation, but the spiritual transformation. And your posts don't negate that, especially if they only refer to the literal.

Are you from Colorado?
 

csuguy

Well-known member
We could go around all day about this; you quote St Clement, I quote St. Clement, etc.

Justin Martyr: "And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία[the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.
And so on.

Justin makes no assertion in this passage you provided that the bread and wine become literal flesh and blood, but I shall return to him in my next post - as I am fairly certain he addressed the accusations from the pagans/romans concerning cannibalism. It will be good to review what he says on that matter.

But part of the problem is your remark " Church Father in question is in fact speaking of the wine and bread literally transforming into blood and wine.. No one makes the claim that it literally turns into flesh and blood, because, obviously, to the naked eye and all other senses it does not. But they definitely taught the Real Presence. That is why I posted the part of what symbols and types mean in the Church. The question is NOT the literal transformation, but the spiritual transformation. And your posts don't negate that, especially if they only refer to the literal.

Yes Catholicism and Orthodoxy both maintain that the Eucharist literally transforms into the blood and flesh of Christ - it's called Transubstantiation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation). The Orthodox churches prefer to leave the explanation of how this takes place a mystery - but they nevertheless maintain that it is literally done.

However, if you don't believe it that is good.

Are you from Colorado?

I'm from Northern California
 

brewmama

New member
Justin makes no assertion in this passage you provided that the bread and wine become literal flesh and blood, but I shall return to him in my next post - as I am fairly certain he addressed the accusations from the pagans/romans concerning cannibalism. It will be good to review what he says on that matter.

Yes Catholicism and Orthodoxy both maintain that the Eucharist literally transforms into the blood and flesh of Christ - it's called Transubstantiation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation). The Orthodox churches prefer to leave the explanation of how this takes place a mystery - but they nevertheless maintain that it is literally done.


Again you insist on the term "literal", which means we are going around in circles. It does seem you are not really listening to what I'm saying. The Orthodox do NOT subscribe to transubstantiation, and I have given sources on that. They do of course subscribe to the Real Presence.
 

Cruciform

New member
Typical reply from someone who can't refute what was said.
"Didn't" doesn't mean "can't."

Why don't you address each point brought out?
Because unless GT's preferred non-Catholic sect is in fact that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself---and against which he declared that the gates of Hades will never prevail (Mt. 16:18-19)---then whatever doctrinal opinions and interpretations he has derived from that chosen man-made sect do not possess the authority of Jesus Christ (Mt. 28:18-20; Ac. 16:4; 2 Thess. 3:4; 1 Tim. 3:15), and so carry no binding authority for believers whatsoever. They are nothing more than mere human opinion---the fallible traditions of men. Thus, for his opinions to carry any weight at all, he needs to demonstrate that his favored man-made sect is in fact Christ's one historic Church. Let's have it, then. Post your proof.

Why does it matter what denomination a person is affiliated with?
See above.

Aren't we here to discuss THE BIBLE?
Actually, the forum is called THEOLOGYonline, not BIBLEonline.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 

csuguy

Well-known member
Again you insist on the term "literal", which means we are going around in circles. It does seem you are not really listening to what I'm saying. The Orthodox do NOT subscribe to transubstantiation, and I have given sources on that. They do of course subscribe to the Real Presence.

Every source I've read on the Orthodox position says that they do maintain that it really is His Body and Blood. True - the term "Transubstation" is a Catholic term associated with an explanation for this is so, a rationale attempt at explaining the tradition that the bread and wine are literally/truly His Body and Blood. The Orthodox agree that it is - but don't accept the Catholic attempt at explaining how this is so.

Of course, if you can provide me with resources you find reliable on Orthodox Doctrine on this matter I would be happy to read them. I will go back and re-read your earlier post, of course, too.

To deliver on my promise concerning Justin and the accusations of cannibalism, here it is:


For I myself, too, when I was delighting in the doctrines of Plato, and heard the Christians slandered, and saw them fearless of death, and of all other things which are counted fearful, perceived that it was impossible that they could be living in wickedness and pleasure. For what sensual or intemperate man, or who that counts it good to feast on human flesh,[4] could welcome death that he might be deprived of his enjoyments, and would not rather continue always the present life, and attempt to escape the observation of the rulers; and much less would he denounce himself when the consequence would be death? This also the wicked demons have now caused to be done by evil men. For having put some to death on account of the accusations falsely brought against us, they also dragged to the torture our domestics, either children or weak women, and by dreadful torments forced them to admit those fabulous actions which they themselves openly perpetrate; about which we are the less concerned, because none of these actions are really ours, and we have the unbegotten and ineffable God as witness both of our thoughts and deeds. For why did we not even publicly profess that these were the things which we esteemed good, and prove that these are the divine philosophy, saying that the mysteries of Saturn are performed when we slay a man, and' that when we drink our fill of blood, as it is said we do, we are doing what you do before that idol you honour, and on which you sprinkle the blood not only of irrational animals, but also of men, making a libation of the blood of the slain by the hand of the most illustrious and noble man among you? And imitating Jupiter and the other gods in sodomy and shameless intercourse with woman, might we not bring as our apology the writings of Epicurus and the poets? But because we persuade men to avoid such instruction, and all who practise them and imitate such examples, as now in this discourse we have striven to persuade you, we are assailed in every kind of way. But we are not concerned, since we know that God is a just observer of all. But would that even now some one would mount a lofty rostrum, and shout with a loud voice, "Be ashamed, be ashamed, ye who charge the guiltless with those deeds which yourselves openly commit, and ascribe things which apply to yourselves and to your gods to those who have not even the slightest sympathy with them. Be ye converted; become wise." (The Second Apology of Justin Martyr, Chapter XII)

We see here that one of the accusations that the Early Christians face was that of cannibalism, and Justin denounces it completely as an outrageous lie - and instead turns the accusation back on the pagans who actually made such things their practice.
 

Nihilo

BANNED
Banned
unless [anybody]'s preferred non-Catholic sect is in fact that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself---and against which he declared that the gates of Hades will never prevail (Mt. 16:18-19)---then whatever doctrinal opinions and interpretations [they have] derived from that chosen man-made sect do not possess the authority of Jesus Christ (Mt. 28:18-20; Ac. 16:4; 2 Thess. 3:4; 1 Tim. 3:15), and so carry no binding authority for believers whatsoever. They are nothing more than mere human opinion---the fallible traditions of men. Thus, for [their] opinions to carry any weight at all, [they need] to demonstrate that [their] favored man-made sect is in fact Christ's one historic Church.
Phenomenal. Amen. :BRAVO:
 

Crucible

BANNED
Banned
Revelation 17:4

And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour,

image002.jpg


and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls

230px-Clement_VIII_mosaic.jpg


having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations

pope_chalice.jpg


and filthiness of her fornication

popekiss.jpg




I feel much freer now that I am certain the Pope is Antichrist
~Martin Luther
1521 AD
 

Nihilo

BANNED
Banned
I feel much freer now that I am certain the Pope is Antichrist
~Martin Luther
1521 AD
Well of course you do now, don't you Martin? You didn't feel free at all, when you believed that the Catholic Church was the Church. But now that you don't believe that anymore, you feel a lot better. And that's the big point of Vatican II. The Church basically said that the Church includes those who for any of a wide variety of reasons (disagreements in doctrine being the most voluminous set) are not in perfect communion with her, and so recognized those who are "imperfectly united" with her in believing in Jesus Christ.
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
the wonder of spring
nature at its best
the trees know what to do
the birds know what to do
the squirrels know what to do
the deer know what to do
the sheep don't
they need guidance
someone must feed them
they need the church
thank God for the church
 

God's Truth

New member
No, YOU are misunderstanding. Read the scripture.

Christ was "made alive in the spirit; in which also he went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient...in the days of Noah."

He was MADE ALIVE. Does it say "while his body was in the grave"? No it just says he was made alive. During the three days? Or AFTER the three days? Does it say? No, but it makes sense, considering that the Bible says that the dead are conscious of NOTHING, that it was AFTER the three days. THEN he was resurrected "in the spirit."
Dead bodies are conscious of nothing, but our spirits go on living after the death of our bodies.

The scriptures say the Old Testament was about earthy man, but the New Testament is about what is Spiritual.

Then he went, in the spirit (which verse 19 specifically says), and proclaimed to the disobedient angels that had sinned in Noah's day....most likely that the redemption of mankind had been accomplished. He didn't speak to them "so that they could obey." You tirelessly put words in other peoples' mouths. I never said that. Those fallen angels had once been his friends, eons and eons ago. Why wouldn't he go and speak to them about the success of Jehovah's plans? Probably like an "I told you so" type proclamation. This is what The New Testament/Recovery Version, 1985, says in a footnote:

First you deny that Jesus went in his Spirit while his flesh was dead, then you go on as if he was alive in the Spirit but dead in the flesh.

Make up your mind what you want to proclaim.

The Bible says he was alive in the Spirit after the death of his body and then he went to prison/Hell.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
1 Peter 3:18 Because The Messiah also died once for the sake of our sins, The Righteous One in the place of sinners, to bring you to God, and he died in body and lived in his Spirit.


(I usually pick the most enlightened scripture from among other translations. I do not choose this Bible translation for many other scriptures, but for this scripture it is perfect.)


"The most acceptable [interpretation] according to the Scriptures is as follows: the spirits here refer not to the disembodied spirits of dead human beings but to the angels (angels are spirits--Heb.1:14) who fell through disobedience at Noah's time and are imprisoned in pits of gloom, awaiting the judgment of the great day. (2Peter 2:4,5; Jude 6) After his death in the flesh, Christ went to these rebellious angels to proclaim, perhaps, God's victory, accomplished through Christ's death in the flesh, over Satan's scheme to derange the divine plan." (Living Stream Ministry)

So there you have it.

You had to make up a story about it being Jesus' angel friends. I can understand why you would say angels, but you forget about the part which says so that they can live according to the BODY in REGARDS TO THE FLESH.

1 Peter 4:6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

Angels are not judged in the flesh as men.
You still have not answered my question. Tell me how does Jesus fill the whole world if he does not go to prison/Hell and preach to those PEOPLE who have died long ago?
 

God's Truth

New member
There are no spirits of PEOPLE conscious after death! People hear the preaching while they are alive!

"For the living know they will die; but THE DEAD DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING....Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for THERE IS NO ACTIVITY OR PLANNING OR KNOWLEDGE OR WISDOM IN SHEOL WHERE YOU ARE GOING." (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10, NASB)

Again, the Old Testament is about earthy men, and the New Testament is about spiritual man.

If you do not recognize the scriptures I am telling you about just ask for the book and numbers.
 
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