The Trinity

[genuineoriginal]

The Bible says Matthew 1:23.

That is only a quote from Isaiah 7:14, so go there and then turn to the next chapter and read Isaiah 8:8.

Then try to explain why you think the meaning of "God with us" is not the same as found in this verse:

1 Kings 8:57 57 The Lord our God be with us, as he was with our fathers: let him not leave us, nor forsake us:​

 

[Nihilo]

Actually, it is, since church is not a valid translation for ekklesia

Who are you to judge so? I'm asking about credentials, because otherwise this is an implied appeal to your own authority.

If the Bible wanted to say He built His Church, it would have used the word kyriakós.

OK, fine. Then where today is this ekklesia that He said against which the gates of Hades will not prevail?

I am giving you another place in the Bible where the word is used.
If you think it means something different in Isaiah 8:8 than it does in Matthew 1:23, then explain why you think it is different.

I think it means what the Church thought it meant from the outset.

 

[Nihilo]

That is only a quote from Isaiah 7:14, so go there and then turn to the next chapter and read Isaiah 8:8.

Then try to explain why you think the meaning of "God with us" is not the same as found in this verse:

1 Kings 8:57 57 The Lord our God be with us, as he was with our fathers: let him not leave us, nor forsake us:​

I think it means what the Church thought it meant from the outset.

 

[genuineoriginal]

OK, fine. Then where today is this ekklesia that He said against which the gates of Hades will not prevail?

The ekklesia are the ones mentioned in these verses:

Romans 8:15-17 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.​

I think it means what the Church thought it meant from the outset.

You are referring to the Apostles, who never once called Jesus "God the Son" but always referred to Him as the Christ, the Son of God.
Aside from that quote of the verse from Isaiah, where in the Bible do you see the Apostles teaching about "God with us"?

 

[KingdomRose]

I have tried to find The New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967 version, online but have encountered dead ends. Apparently it is not available online. People who have searched for it came to the conclusion that we must go to our local library to find it.

 

[KingdomRose]

That is correct, I was trying to make a point to trinitarians that Father, Son and Holy Ghost are not names of God and my response in trying to clarify this was:
Quote Originally Posted by iamaberean View Post
God has many more names than just three, so if we feel that a name (title) of God means another God, then we need to add the other Gods to our list.

As you can see I used names and titles. This is because Jesus told his disciples to baptize in the the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Ghost. Trinitarians use the titles to baptize even though they should know the name is 'Jesus'.

They are the ones confused!

Yes, for a certainty. And the poor things have no idea of what the name of the Father is! The God who inspired the entire Bible! They are taught that his name doesn't matter, and yet they baptize "in the name of the Father"! Don't you want to just shake your head and throw up your hands?

 

[KingdomRose]

'Trinity' is deduced from the scriptures- pretty much, if you don't see it then you are simply inept or in rebellion against what the prophets and apostles reveal. The word doesn't need to be in there, if you don't believe Jesus is God than you are a Muslim- that's just simple fact home skillet. Call him Deity or prophet, but do not be so vain as to presume Jesus as an angel or some demigod, you fool.
He did not leave that option_

No, no, no. Please. The only way that you will get the Trinity from the Scriptures is by using your imagination. There is NOTHING there that in any way teaches a trinity of Gods. You are not paying attention to what the Scriptures actually say. Jesus even clearly called his Father in heaven (Jehovah) "my God." (John 20:17; Revelation 3:12) How can God have a God? Use your brain, man.

 

[KingdomRose]

Pretty much?

We don't need to presume anything. Look again at the scripture I listed.

1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
This scripture means that Jesus is God! The same God the Jews served.
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Er, no...those scriptures don't show that Jesus is God. How does I Corinthians show that Jesus is God? It simply says that he was the Lord from heaven. No mention that he is God.

Isaiah 44:6 refers to JEHOVAH, the Most High (see Psalm 83:18, KJV). Wherever you see "LORD" in all upper-case letters, that is where "YHWH," the Tetragrammaton (popularly translated "JEHOVAH"), appears in the original language text. Revelation 22:13 also refers to Jehovah, the Father and God of Jesus. Now, if you are going to try and say that Jesus IS Jehovah, you'll have to explain Psalm 110:1 & Isaiah 61:1,2, where Jehovah is speaking to Jesus or He is anointing Jesus and sending Jesus.

Dig deeper, man.

 

[KingdomRose]

There is:

1) God the Father
2) God the Son
3) God the Holy Spirit

Yet, these three are one.

You will admit that you believe that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the H.S. is God. Every trinitarian I have talked with says that. How many Gods does that make? How about counting them? I count THREE. They are NOT "one" God. They are THREE Gods. Polytheism!!!

"Wake up little Suzie, wake up!" (Everly Bros.):idea:

 

[KingdomRose]

As a Berean, I believe exactly what the scriptures say.

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Show me where is says differently.

You might also that note, that all three are Spirit.

Did you know that scholars say that I John 5:7 is not in the earlier scrolls? It was obviously ADDED some centuries later than the original. Dig deeper.

 

[KingdomRose]

I don't deny that they can all be called God, it is just that you try to make them separate, when in truth they are one and the same.
We can also speak of me in the same way, I am a 'father', I am a 'son' and I am a 'husband' but that does not make me three persons.


I hope this helps you.

How can the persons depicted in Psalm 110 and Isaiah 61 be the same person? Explain that.

 

[KingdomRose]

Why wouldn't that matter?
How's the 23rd verse of the New Testament for you? Matthew 1:23

By the way, that "virgin" is Mary, the Mother of God.

Who called her "the mother of God"? It's nowhere in the Bible. More "tradition"!

 

[KingdomRose]

Who are you to judge so? I'm asking about credentials, because otherwise this is an implied appeal to your own authority.
OK, fine. Then where today is this ekklesia that He said against which the gates of Hades will not prevail?
I think it means what the Church thought it meant from the outset.

The "authority" that shows that the RCC is NOT the church that Jesus started is history itself. Jesus clearly stated that you would recognize the false Christians by their "fruits" (works/deeds). (Matthew 7:16) What has the so-called true church of Jesus Christ revealed about itself through its deeds? Was Jesus leading the Crusades (where thousands of people were destroyed, including innocent women and children and even other Christians)? Was Jesus involved in the Inquisition (that caused the torture and deaths of thousands of helpless people)? Did Jesus really guide Pope Pius XII to sign a concordat with the Nazis, agreeing to work with them & not against them? And did the pope speak out against the atrocities that the Nazis were perpetrating on the people? Did he even speak out to protect one of his own nuns who was a converted Jew (but who died at the hands of the Nazis)? Did Jesus guide the church to hide known Nazis in the churches and then help them escape to other countries? Did Jesus instruct the church to join in with the Orthodox murderers in the 1990s to annihilate Muslims in the Balkans, throwing them into wells and hacking them to death...women and children included, and then allowing full reign to Ante Pavlic who ate Muslim eyeballs as a snack? And in these days...does Jesus find it totally OK for his church to transfer child molesters to other parishes rather than putting them out of the church? Has he instructed (as the Vatican has done) his bishops to ignore rules stating that molesters should be reported to the police, and to continue to handle things "in-house," continuing to merely transfer the pedophiles? I could go on. Answer my question, if you can.

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is WIDE and the road BROAD that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are MANY." (Matt.7:13, NAB) The majority is not always right. Just because the organization is big doesn't mean it represents the truth.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

KR is a member of the "Jehovah Witness" cult. He/she doesn't know what they're talking about.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You will admit that you believe that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the H.S. is God. Every trinitarian I have talked with says that. How many Gods does that make? How about counting them? I count THREE. They are NOT "one" God. They are THREE Gods. Polytheism!!!

"Wake up little Suzie, wake up!" (Everly Bros.):idea:

You're a JW cult member. Why should anyone listen to you? Think first, then give an answer?

 

[Right Divider]

You're a JW cult member. Why should anyone listen to you? Think first, then give an answer?

Unbelieving Christ deniers just keep repeating the same old worn out nonsense.

 

[Nihilo]

The ekklesia are the ones mentioned in these verses:

Romans 8:15-17 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. ​

I'm not above this. Congratulations. You subscribe to the notion that the Church that our Lord promised to build upon Peter; is actually invisible---an idea invented in the 1500s.

So, good for you. You're real . . . "original."

Aside from that quote of the verse from Isaiah, where in the Bible do you see the Apostles teaching about "God with us"?

Are you implying that Matthew 1:23 is not genuine?

 

[Nihilo]

I have tried to find The New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967 version, online but have encountered dead ends. Apparently it is not available online. People who have searched for it came to the conclusion that we must go to our local library to find it.

No need. Anybody who wants to know what the Holy See teaches can check the index in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

(Scroll all the way to the bottom, or press "End" key.)

 

[Nihilo]

Who called her "the mother of God"? It's nowhere in the Bible. More "tradition"!

:AMR: Luke 1:43. And what the heck is wrong with tradition? 2nd Thessalonians 2:15,3:6

 

[Nihilo]

The "authority" that shows that the RCC is NOT the church that Jesus started is history itself. Jesus clearly stated that you would recognize the false Christians by their "fruits" (works/deeds). (Matthew 7:16)

That's not what that passage means.

What has the so-called true church of Jesus Christ revealed about itself through its deeds? Was Jesus leading the Crusades (where thousands of people were destroyed, including innocent women and children and even other Christians)? Was Jesus involved in the Inquisition (that caused the torture and deaths of thousands of helpless people)? Did Jesus really guide Pope Pius XII to sign a concordat with the Nazis, agreeing to work with them & not against them? And did the pope speak out against the atrocities that the Nazis were perpetrating on the people? Did he even speak out to protect one of his own nuns who was a converted Jew (but who died at the hands of the Nazis)? Did Jesus guide the church to hide known Nazis in the churches and then help them escape to other countries? Did Jesus instruct the church to join in with the Orthodox murderers in the 1990s to annihilate Muslims in the Balkans, throwing them into wells and hacking them to death...women and children included, and then allowing full reign to Ante Pavlic who ate Muslim eyeballs as a snack? And in these days...does Jesus find it totally OK for his church to transfer child molesters to other parishes rather than putting them out of the church? Has he instructed (as the Vatican has done) his bishops to ignore rules stating that molesters should be reported to the police, and to continue to handle things "in-house," continuing to merely transfer the pedophiles? I could go on. Answer my question, if you can.

Do you believe this scripture?

They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.​

In what way do the sins of His Church nullify her as His Church? What scripture says that? What scripture says that His Church is sinless?

Or better yet! Can you show me where the Holy See teaches that the Holy Catholic Church is or ever was sinless? If the Magisterium has ever taught it, then you've got them on hypocrisy. Have they ever taught that?

Long exhale . . . you know what I mean here?

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is WIDE and the road BROAD that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are MANY." (Matt.7:13, NAB) The majority is not always right. Just because the organization is big doesn't mean it represents the truth.

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116738-the-church&p=4641347&viewfull=1#post4641347