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  • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
    The Doctrine of who Christ is and the Trinity are the two most debated doctrines in the Church. Doesn't it make sense that if Satan can cause division over these two that he is accomplishing his mission. The book of Jude rings true that false teachers have crept in unawares and have spread lies to cause strife.
    So you believe Jesus is the same substance as the Father.

    LA
    My theology is that the elect of Israel became the scattered church among the nations, and when filled up with the full number of gentiles who believe to become one with them, then Christ will return and gather them, and God will then pour out His wrath on the unbelievers of both Jew and Gentile.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Lazy afternoon View Post
      So you believe Jesus is the same substance as the Father.

      LA
      Yes, He is the same essence as the Father

      From CARM.org

      The Trinity is the Christian teaching that God exists in three eternal Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the same Person as the Son; the Son is not the same Person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same Person as Father. They are not three gods and not three beings. They are three distinct Persons; yet, they are all the one God. Each has a will, can speak, can love, etc., and these are demonstrations of personhood. They are in absolute perfect harmony, consisting of one substance. They are co-eternal, co-equal, and co-powerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God.
      He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

      Jim Elliot

      Comment


      • Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
        Yes those false teachers that claim that it is important to understand the nature of God in order to be saved have crept in unawares and have spread lies to cause strife.

        Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
        Please, explain the nature of Christ to us.
        Are you trying to cause strife by asking?

        The nature of Christ that we are to accept as Gospel truth is spoken clearly:

        Matthew 16:16
        16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.



        Anything else is not important for salvation.
        Learn to read what is written.

        _____
        The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
        ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

        Comment


        • Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post

          Are you trying to cause strife by asking?

          The nature of Christ that we are to accept as Gospel truth is spoken clearly:

          Matthew 16:16
          16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.



          Anything else is not important for salvation.
          Nope and I agree with you, all that is needed is Christ. But it is still required that we believe who He is, yes or no?
          He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

          Jim Elliot

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
            It comes from without and creeps in.
            No, it doesn't; not in Holy Catholicism.

            That was my point.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Nihilo View Post
              No, it doesn't; not in Holy Catholicism.

              That was my point.
              It came from without before it was within.
              He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

              Jim Elliot

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                It came from without before it was within.
                It's not within. Virtually no Catholic questions the Trinity. When one crosses oneself, one says, when touching the forehead, "In the name of the Father," and when touching the chest, "And the Son," and when touching the left and right shoulders, "And the Holy Spirit . . . "

                . . . Amen.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Nihilo View Post
                  It's not within. Virtually no Catholic questions the Trinity. When one crosses oneself, one says, when touching the forehead, "In the name of the Father," and when touching the chest, "And the Son," and when touching the left and right shoulders, "And the Holy Spirit . . . "

                  . . . Amen.
                  Let's not derail the thread by turning into one on Catholic catechism.
                  He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                  Jim Elliot

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                    Let's not derail the thread by turning into one on Catholic catechism.
                    All right. I just thought it germane to mention that disputes about the Trinity are a uniquely Protestant thing.

                    But aside from that:

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Nihilo View Post
                      All right. I just thought it germane to mention that disputes about the Trinity are a uniquely Protestant thing.

                      But aside from that:

                      Thank You.
                      He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                      Jim Elliot

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Nihilo View Post
                        All right. I just thought it germane to mention that disputes about the Trinity are a uniquely Protestant thing.

                        But aside from that:

                        Because all those so called Arians and semi-Arians in the 4th century were Protestants :P Let's not forget the writings of the Church Fathers in the first three centuries who all maintained that Jesus was not God Almighty and that he was, at some point, born/came into being.
                        If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by csuguy View Post
                          Because all those so called Arians and semi-Arians in the 4th century were Protestants :P Let's not forget the writings of the Church Fathers in the first three centuries who all maintained that Jesus was not God Almighty and that he was, at some point, born/came into being.
                          Here are some who did.


                          From Carm.org

                          Early Trinitarian Quotes

                          It took a while for the Christian Church to finally figure out what the Trinity was. But, by God's grace, the Church has defined it. However, some say that the Trinity was never taught until the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. Not so. Following are some samples of quotes taken from early church leaders regarding the plural nature of God.

                          Polycarp (70-155/160) - Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.
                          "O Lord God almighty...I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

                          Justin Martyr (100?-165?) - He was a Christian apologist and martyr.
                          "For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

                          Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117) - Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
                          "In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
                          "We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

                          Irenaeus (115-190) - As a boy, he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.
                          "The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all...'" (Against Heresies X.l)

                          Part of the reason that the Trinity doctrine was not "officially" taught until the time of the Council of Nicea, is because Christianity was illegal until shortly before the council. It wasn't really possible for official Christian groups to meet and discuss doctrine. For the most part, they were fearful of making public pronouncements concerning their faith.
                          Additionally, if a group had attacked the person of Adam, the early church would have responded with an official doctrine of who Adam was. As it was, the Person of Christ was attacked. When the Church defended the deity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity was further defined.
                          The early Church believed in the Trinity, as is evidenced by the quotes above, and it wasn't necessary to really make them official. It wasn't until errors started to creep in, that councils began to meet to discuss the Trinity, as well as other doctrines that came under fire.
                          He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                          Jim Elliot

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by csuguy View Post
                            Because all those so called Arians and semi-Arians in the 4th century were Protestants :P Let's not forget the writings of the Church Fathers in the first three centuries who all maintained that Jesus was not God Almighty and that he was, at some point, born/came into being.
                            Yeah, and let's also not forget that those Arians saw Jesus Christ as something like the Caped Crusader and less like what modern unitarians profess He was. Modern unitarianism is a brand new, never-heard-of before idea---certainly not in the fourth century, when the "non-Trins" believed something more like, rather, that our Lord's real name was "Kal-El."

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Crucible View Post
                              *BUMP*


                              You can't be the son of someone and not be of that person. This is the obvious folly of trinity deniers that never gets the attention it deserves. If Jesus is the direct Son of God, then he is not an angel or separate deity- he is God.
                              Rather....you can't be the son OF somebody and at the same time BE that somebody. That viewpoint is no "folly."

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Crucible View Post
                                Let me put it to you this way.

                                When two parents have a child, their body is of the parents but their soul comes from neither.

                                For Jesus, the body came from Mary and God, and the soul is literally of the Spirit. That means that Jesus is effectively 100% man and 100% God. This is what makes him the bridge between God and humanity.

                                It's not merely tradition. If you read the New Testament and compare verses between it and Isaiah, it is impossible to come to any other conclusion than he is God.
                                But you won't do that homework, because you've decided to be anti-Trinitarian and nothing else will get through to you.
                                No....what makes Jesus the bridge from God to humanity is his SINLESS NATURE. He doesn't have to be God to be the Redeemer. He just had to be ADAM'S EQUAL. As Adam condemned his descendants to death, Jesus (the "last Adam") will bring about humanity's salvation. (I Corinthians 15:22 & 45)

                                The only way you can get out of Isaiah & the N.T. that Jesus is God is if you already believe it, and you grasp at anything to "prove" it. The sad thing is, people who are not familiar with the Bible will think you are so smart (even though your "proof texts" are bogus) that they will take your word for it.

                                I have already done the homework, Crucible. For many years. I can turn over any argument you bring up.


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