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  • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
    So what is your answer. Sometimes I'm slow, humor me.
    His answer is that God is arbitrary; that WHATEVER God declares good is good by virtue of God's arbitrary decree; that God does not proclaim what is the good but rather He merely decrees what good is.

    For Dartman, God isn't good because He's equitable but equitability is good because God says it is and for NO OTHER REASON!

    Thus, Jesus had to die on the Cross because that's what God said had to be done and for NO OTHER REASON! It wasn't because Jesus' death was actually of sufficient value to equal or to exceed the debt that was owed. On the contrary, if Jesus' death balanced the scales of justice, it wasn't because His death was of equal weight but because God had His finger on the scale! Not only that but that this unjust scale is Dartman's definition of God's grace!

    Could there be a more blasphemous definition of Grace in all of existence?

    Of course, Dartman would never admit to believing this but that is the direct implication of his position. According to his logic, there was no real need for Jesus to die at all. God, according to Datman's logic, would have been within His purview to have exterminated all the rats in Jerusalem and declared our sin debt paid by virtue of the death of rats. Indeed, according to his logic, had God done so, He would have been all that much more gracious!

    Dartman,
    God's grace is not offered to you because God is unjust as this foolishly false doctrine you're exposing suggests. On the contrary, it is God's willingness to provide justice at His own expense on our behalf that is God's grace. If God is unjust, He isn't God! Grace is NOT injustice! God CANNOT be unjust! This is precisely the reason Jesus had to die! If you forgo justice, the cross instantly becomes unnecessary and thereby mindlessly, needlessly cruel and ugly.

    Proverbs 11:1 Dishonest scales are an abomination to the Lord, But a just weight is His delight.

    Proverbs 16:11 Honest weights and scales are the Lord’s; All the weights in the bag are His work.

    Proverbs 20:23 Diverse weights are an abomination to the Lord, And dishonest scales are not good.


    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    sigpic
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Clete View Post
      His answer is that God is arbitrary; that WHATEVER God declares good is good by virtue of God's arbitrary decree; that God does not proclaim what is the good but rather He merely decrees what good is.

      For Dartman, God isn't good because He's equitable but equitability is good because God says it is and for NO OTHER REASON!

      Thus, Jesus had to die on the Cross because that's what God said had to be done and for NO OTHER REASON! It wasn't because Jesus' death was actually of sufficient value to equal or to exceed the debt that was owed. On the contrary, if Jesus' death balanced the scales of justice, it wasn't because His death was of equal weight but because God had His finger on the scale! Not only that but that this unjust scale is Dartman's definition of God's grace!


      He knows what pleases Him...and the sacrifice of His begotten Son was pleasing...no finger on the scale here:

      Leviticus 19:35
      You must not use dishonest measures of length, weight, or volume.

      Leviticus 19:36
      You shall maintain honest scales and weights, an honest ephah, and an honest hin. I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt.

      Deuteronomy 25:13
      You shall not have two differing weights in your bag, one heavy and one light.

      Deuteronomy 25:16
      For everyone who behaves dishonestly in regard to these things is detestable to the LORD your God.

      Proverbs 11:1
      1The Lord detests dishonest scales,
      but accurate weights find favor with him

      Proverbs 16:11
      Honest scales and balances are from the LORD; all the weights in the bag are His concern.

      Proverbs 20:10
      Differing weights and unequal measures--both are detestable to the LORD.

      Proverbs 20:23
      Unequal weights are detestable to the LORD, and dishonest scales are no good.

      Hosea 12:7
      A merchant loves to defraud with dishonest scales in his hands.

      Micah 6:11
      Can I excuse dishonest scales or bags of false weights?

      His Law is a description of Him...He can not change Himself...but what His begotten Son did was pleasing to Him...the ONLY THING...is why we NEED to be covered by Him our brother from Our Father’s Wrath...


      Could there be a more blasphemous definition of Grace in all of existence?

      Of course, Dartman would never admit to believing this but that is the direct implication of his position. According to his logic, there was no real need for Jesus to die at all. God, according to Datman's logic, would have been within His purview to have exterminated all the rats in Jerusalem and declared our sin debt paid by virtue of the death of rats. Indeed, according to his logic, had God done so, He would have been all that much more gracious!

      Dartman, God's grace is not offered to you because God is unjust as this foolishly false doctrine you're exposing suggests. On the contrary, it is God's willingness to provide justice at His own expense on our behalf that is God's grace. If God is unjust, He isn't God! Grace is NOT injustice! God CANNOT be unjust!
      God not unjust? Hard sell for Egyptians and other enemies but yes they will come round...

      But more to the point...many Christians claim His perfect Law was NOT perfect and thus needed to be changed...abolished even...

      Odd that the law demanding sacrifice was NOT changed to the death of rats or something else pleasing? Could have saved His Son...and the suffering of millions doing that change sooner...

      Perhaps what is immutable is because He says so BECAUSE IT IS SO...the Law is a description of Him His character and what life is like where “I Am”

      A changeable Law actually pleases no one...ask liberals

      Resting in Him,
      Clete
      not working six days prior that rest though eh?...as if the Law was changeable

      Comment


      • Clefty is the single most moronic idiot on TOL.

        He posts something that affirms my argument while thinking he's refuting me.

        He's been on my ignore list for so long I forget why and then I read one post and it all becomes clear.

        What an idiot!


        Clefty, you're too stupid to accept this but, if you attempt to be or get saved by following the law, you will spend eternity in Hell paying for your own sin debt.
        sigpic
        "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Clete View Post
          Clefty is the single most moronic idiot on TOL.

          He posts something that affirms my argument while thinking he's refuting me.

          He's been on my ignore list for so long I forget why and then I read one post and it all becomes clear.

          What an idiot!
          Easy big girl...no need the hot flashes...

          Not wanting to refute you...but merely that what He says is because it is...

          Many claim the laws could be changed despite His saying what IS...and is to be...on earth as it is in heaven

          And He spoke and it was so...and He called it good...because He made it so...because He knows what good is...because He is good...perfect even

          Accepting He is good and saves is why we wish to do the law...

          The law is not an instructional manual on how to get saved but an owner’s manual on how to achieve maximum satisfaction now that we are owners of His gift of salvation

          ...you know...like the other gifts made for you but you rejected...Sabbath...woman?
          Last edited by clefty; February 1, 2019, 06:49 AM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Clete View Post
            His answer is that God is arbitrary; that WHATEVER God declares good is good by virtue of God's arbitrary decree;
            Absolutely.
            Originally posted by Clete
            ... that God does not proclaim what is the good but rather He merely decrees what good is.
            Absolutely False.
            God does both.

            Originally posted by Clete
            For Dartman, God isn't good because He's equitable but equitability is good because God says it is and for NO OTHER REASON!
            You are STILL wrong.

            Originally posted by Clete
            Thus, Jesus had to die on the Cross because that's what God said had to be done
            Absolutely.
            Originally posted by Clete
            and for NO OTHER REASON!
            Absolutely False.

            Originally posted by Clete
            It wasn't because Jesus' death was actually of sufficient value to equal or to exceed the debt that was owed.
            Correct.
            Originally posted by Clete
            On the contrary, if Jesus' death balanced the scales of justice, it wasn't because His death was of equal weight but because God had His finger on the scale! Not only that but that this unjust scale is Dartman's definition of God's grace!
            So, are you telling us, IF God WAS willing to COUNT the death of one man as payment .... that is NOT GRACE?????
            God is willing to COUNT belief/faith as RIGHTEOUSNESS;
            Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
            THIS is a Biblical definition of "Grace".


            Originally posted by Clete
            Could there be a more blasphemous definition of Grace in all of existence?
            Of course. There are many. I'm curious what YOUR definition of Grace is... and where would you show it stated in Scripture?

            Isa 53 Who hath believed our message? and to whom hath the arm of Jehovah been revealed?
            2 For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
            3 He was despised, and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and as one from whom men hide their face he was despised; and we esteemed him not.
            4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
            5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
            6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and Jehovah hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
            7 He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.
            8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who (among them) considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke (was due)?
            9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
            10 Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see (his) seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand.
            11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, (and) shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities.
            12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors: yet he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

            God COUNTED Christ's death as justification, because of Christ's faith and obedience.


            The rest of your post merely builds upon your errors.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Dartman View Post
              Absolutely.
              Premise 1 acknowledged and conceded.

              Absolutely False.
              God does both.
              Contradiction. A thing cannot be both arbitrary and non-arbitrary.

              This is called the law of excluded middle. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. A thing either is or it is not - can't be both.


              Now, because I know you'll ignore that argument and simply repeat your bald assertion unless I point it out, that was a fully rational and completely devastating argument against your position. Refute it or accept that you cannot.

              You are STILL wrong.
              Saying it doesn't make it so.

              Absolutely.
              Once again a now redundant acknowledgement of the first major premise.

              (Which is sufficient in itself to falsify your doctrine. God cannot be both just and arbitrary.)

              Absolutely False.
              Saying it doesn't make it so!

              Further, denying this contradicts the premise that you just acknowledged was "ABSOLUTELY" true!

              If you think otherwise then please, by all means, tell us what the reason was for your god's admittedly "absolutely" arbitrary decision that Jesus must die.

              Come on, now! Don't flake out. Tell us! What's the reason for God's arbitrary decision!

              Correct.
              Blasphemy.

              This implies not only that Jesus was a mere man but that God is unjust.

              So, are you telling us, IF God WAS willing to COUNT the death of one man as payment .... that is NOT GRACE?????
              Stupid question.

              If God counted the death of a maggot as payment, would that be grace too?

              If so, then why did Jesus and the Father have to suffer through the events at Calvary? Calvary was just a complete waste of time if your logic was even close to being right. God could have just as easily (easier really) had the High Priest stomp on an ant and said that was sufficient and chalked the rest up to grace. In fact, why kill the ant? Why not just right the whole thing off as grace and be done with it?

              Further, to say that Christ death wasn't of sufficient value to pay the entire sin debt is to say that God did as good as He could do but wasn't really able to find a way to really pay off the actual debt and so is willing to just let the rest of it slide - no biggy.

              God is willing to COUNT belief/faith as RIGHTEOUSNESS;
              Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
              THIS is a Biblical definition of "Grace".
              Not according to you! According to you, everything short of justice is grace. The less justice the more grace.

              If God is unjust He IS NOT GOD!

              Of course. There are many. I'm curious what YOUR definition of Grace is... and where would you show it stated in Scripture?
              You want to change the subject and debate my beliefs. I'm here to grind your blasphemous doctrine into powder. I couldn't care less what you think about my doctrine.

              God COUNTED Christ's death as justification, because of Christ's faith and obedience.
              Christ's death was justification because His life wasn't just perfectly lived, but because it, being the very life of God Himself, was of infinite worth. Thus God is able to be gracious and merciful while remaining perfectly just.

              The rest of your post merely builds upon your errors.
              Meaning you're too lazy to do a full response.

              Resting in Him,
              Clete
              sigpic
              "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

              Comment


              • Originally posted by clefty View Post
                Easy big girl...no need the hot flashes...

                Not wanting to refute you...but merely that what He says is because it is...

                Many claim the laws could be changed despite His saying what IS...and is to be...on earth as it is in heaven

                And He spoke and it was so...and He called it good...because He made it so...because He knows what good is...because He is good...perfect even

                Accepting He is good and saves is why we wish to do the law...

                The law is not an instructional manual on how to get saved but an owner’s manual on how to achieve maximum satisfaction now that we are owners of His gift of salvation

                ...you know...like the other gifts made for you but you rejected...Sabbath...woman?
                So, you're trolling the thread and trying to change the subject to law vs grace or some such thing?

                Would you please just go away! Does anyone even read your posts or think you've got 3 ounces of gray matter between your ears?


                Okay - that's it! Back to ignore with you.
                sigpic
                "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Clete View Post
                  So, you're trolling the thread and trying to change the subject to law vs grace or some such thing?

                  Would you please just go away! Does anyone even read your posts or think you've got 3 ounces of gray matter between your ears?


                  Okay - that's it! Back to ignore with you.
                  You MAD bro? Yeah he MAD...oh man classic but still funny

                  I ain’t here to change nothing...but restore things to what they were before they were changed by yours...

                  The thread topic is trinity and before man his traditions constructed a trinity they changed His laws first...

                  Is why when He reveals His Law He reveals His character His Being It’s perfection and peace that where He is His Law is kept...best get used to that...perfection...Immortal all the rest is begotten created or born
                  Last edited by clefty; February 1, 2019, 10:38 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Grace by Christian definition is a blasphemy. Mankind although created by the creator is so corrupt that he needs grace to do anything just. One could argue this makes God unjust, but God failed in no such way and believes no such grace. Otherwise, punishment is grace, and so is the son's crucifixion.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by SabathMoon View Post
                      Grace by Christian definition is a blasphemy. Mankind although created by the creator is so corrupt that he needs grace to do anything just. One could argue this makes God unjust, but God failed in no such way and believes no such grace. Otherwise, punishment is grace, and so is the son's crucifixion.
                      Man was created in a state of grace. Man "fell from grace" by reason of original sin.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
                        Man was created in a state of grace. Man "fell from grace" by reason of original sin.
                        You don't understand the story. God used Satan to open mankind's eyes, but there had to be consequences for mankind not being blind. Secondly, it wasn't grace, but the connection to God which mankind lost.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by SabathMoon View Post
                          Grace by Christian definition is a blasphemy. Mankind although created by the creator is so corrupt that he needs grace to do anything just. One could argue this makes God unjust, but God failed in no such way and believes no such grace. Otherwise, punishment is grace, and so is the son's crucifixion.
                          Umm...

                          What?
                          sigpic
                          "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Clete View Post
                            Umm...

                            What?
                            SabathMoon =

                            Comment


                            • Not that it proves anything of course, but with regard to the Trinity I think it's interesting to note that Paul never once includes the Holy Spirit in any of his letter's salutations.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by rstrats View Post
                                Not that it proves anything of course, but with regard to the Trinity I think it's interesting to note that Paul never once includes the Holy Spirit in any of his letter's salutations.
                                Yup...does Peter, John?

                                Comment

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