The Trinity

The Trinity


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Right Divider

Body part
For clarification, if I understand what you just said, saying that "One God" means "One God being" in the same sense that there is "One Cat being" and "One Rock Being" or "One Angel Being" composed of three individuals is both "tri-theism" and "heresy?" In the sense that the "God being" has three persons, the Cat being has about three billion non-persons, and the Angel being has who knows how many persons?

Could I just have a yes or no on that please?
No.

Cat is a KIND and NOT a BEING.

So simple a child can understand it.
 

Rosenritter

New member
No.

Cat is a KIND and NOT a BEING.

So simple a child can understand it.

James Whites uses "kind" and "being" as synonyms.

[FONT=&quot][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We must first remember that very few have a good idea of what the Trinity is in the first place - hence, accuracy in definition will be very important. The doctrine of the Trinity is simply that there is one eternal being of God - indivisible, infinite. This one being of God is shared by three co-equal, co-eternal persons, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.[/FONT][/FONT]
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It is necessary here to distinguish between the terms "being" and "person." It would be a contradiction, obviously, to say that there are three beings within one being, or three persons within one person. So what is the difference? We clearly recognize the difference between being and person every day. We recognize what something is, yet we also recognize individuals within a classification. For example, we speak of the "being" of man---human being. A rock has "being"---the being of a rock, as does a cat, a dog, etc. Yet, we also know that there are personal attributes as well. That is, we recognize both "what" and "who" when we talk about a person.
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The Bible tells us there are three classifications of personal beings---God, man, and angels. What is personality? The ability to have emotion, will, to express oneself. Rocks cannot speak. Cats cannot think of themselves over against others, and, say, work for the common good of "cat kind." Hence, we are saying that there is one eternal, infinite being of God, shared fully and completely by three persons, Father, Son and Spirit. One what, three who's.
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James White on the Trinity: http://vintage.aomin.org/trinitydef.html

* * *

If it is so simple that a child can understand it, how come James White (according to you) has it wrong? He has One Cat Being, One Dog Being, One Rock Being, One Angel Being, One God Being, and One Human Being. He allows for the Angel, God and Human being to be made up of multiple persons. You can read the linked article yourself to see that I am not misquoting him.

No.

Cat is a KIND and NOT a BEING.

So simple a child can understand it.

But James White says, "A rock has "being"---the being of a rock, as does a cat, a dog, etc." When I asked this group thread about James White before, they said his definition was right. Why do you disagree now? And why are you mad at me when I agree with you?
 

Rosenritter

New member
Rosen Ritt is a heretic that denies the Trinity -

How can that be, Patrick, when the top leaders of this thread and the top leaders of the "Trinity" world cannot agree on a definition? Do I agree with Right Divider or James White?

Acts 24:13-16 KJV
(13) Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
(14) But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
(15) And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
(16) And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.
 
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Rosenritter

New member
I was saying 'tritheism' is heresy. I have a thread on this topic where PPS and others have went the extra-mile to expound the problem if such would be of service to you. Between tritheism and monotheism is the Trinitarian view.

I did try to take a look at your recommended thread, but like many here it's hundreds of pages long. I did observe that you were respectful in the introduction and were concerned about using scripture, which I appreciate. I didn't read much in all but the ending page seemed peaceful also.

I understand "Trinity" to be a man-made model that attempts to explain how God can create the heavens and the earth, how Jesus can be said to have created all things, and yet how Jesus could refer to God without pointing to himself when he walked on earth. If that model can be used in love and peace and understanding, then it has good fruits. But when a man-made definition is deemed to have more authority than the scripture itself, and the fruits of that doctrine are used to harass, bully, persecute, and even burn those that cannot agree, then it has bad fruits.

If a tree has bad fruits, it would be better to be cut down, burnt, and destroyed. Remember what matters. Paul tells us that love and charity are the things that matter, and that these shall last far past the scope of knowledge, doctrine, and prophecy. If we want to know about the nature of God, we are told simply, "God is love" and this is said in black and white, this is something we can know for sure.

I believe that someone could be completely wrong in their earthly understanding of the "metaphysical" nature of God, but if they understand that God is love, and they have that working faith in Christ Jesus, they will be among the saints and the sheep in the day of judgment. I also believe that someone could have "all knowledge" but if they have not charity, if they bite and consume their neighbors, beat the servants thinking "my Lord delays his coming" than these will be the ones cast out and cut asunder, consigned to eternal fire.

How shall men know that we are his disciples?
 

Right Divider

Body part
James Whites uses "kind" and "being" as synonyms.
Once AGAIN, I don't CARE what James White says. So quit using that fallacious idea that he it the standard by which the trinity doctrine is defined in your vain attempt to discredit that validity of that sound Bible doctrine.

There are KINDS of beings in the universe. Animals, plants, angels, etc. Of each of those KINDS there are MANY INDIVIDUAL beings.

God is NOT like other beings in that there is only ONE OF HIM. There is NO other being of ANY KIND like God.

The Bible reveals this ONE BEING (God) as THREE PERSONS: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

It's just that simple.
 

Right Divider

Body part
If you stop calling people psycho, demon possessed, and so forth, I will stop submitting "negative reputation" comments.
I will continue to tell the truth and call an apple, an apple; a spade, a spade; and a lunatic, a lunatic, etc. etc.... regardless of your vain desire to be my nanny.
 

Right Divider

Body part
How can that be, Patrick, when the top leaders of this thread and the top leaders of the "Trinity" world cannot agree on a definition? Do I agree with Right Divider or James White?

Acts 24:13-16 KJV
(13) Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
(14) But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
(15) And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
(16) And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.
Gee ... another one that loves to trot out their fallacies for all to see.

Disagreement does NOT means that everyone is wrong.
 

Apple7

New member
According to James White, whom members of this thread confirm has a "correct understanding" the Trinity is simply a group of individuals of the same God-species. Just like we may have 1,000,000 dog individuals of one dog kind, and we would say "Hear O Israel, Fido is One Dog" and we would refer to all dogs as "Fido." James White didn't use "dog" as the example, but he actually used "cat" and "rock" as examples.

Never have heard anyone explain how this differs from polytheism. Can anyone deal with this elephant in the room, or is it preferable to continue to tear at each other and accuse each other of being demon possessed, needing to repent, not interested in truth, etc?

3 Persons: 1 Being.

My avatar represents the 12 deity combinations of The Trinity as they occur in scripture.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Nowhere in the BIBLE will you find that the angels are made in the image of God and NO I do not think that they had the knowledge of good and evil. Please show the scripture that says that they did.

What do THESE have to do with the POST that you QUOTED? Stay on the SUBJECT, oh Divisive One.

Dear Mr. Right, if you are going to take the time to complain about a question, you might as well answer it. How else can we arrive at resolution to questions if you refuse to say where you stand on something so basic?

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Originally Posted by Rosenritter

1. When were the angels created? Before the creation of man, or after the creation of man?
2. Do you allow for angels to have free moral agency? That is, unlike dogs, cats, and rocks, can they make choices for good or evil?


Clearly the angels were created before the man. Job is asked, "Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" These "sons of God" were present when the creation was completed, the serpent sought to beguile the woman, and when man was driven from the garden, cherubim guarded the entrance to prevent their return. (see Job 38:7, Genesis 3:24).

Therefore, knowing that the angelic host was present before the man, "Let us create man in our image" does not require that God is set of multiple persons. God can speak for himself and his host of angels. God does act in cooperation with his created angels, as evidenced in 1 Kings 22: and 2 Chronicles 18, when he even asks his angels for advice as to how to deal with a certain king. This is at least as reasonable a possibility as God speaking to himself in plural.

If God was speaking to himself, as you posit, and excluding the host of angels, then what could be meant by "creating man in his image?" How can man be in the image of God, yet specifically not in the image of the angel? If you say that God is a trinity, then is man a trinity? Is man three persons in one being? Is he omnipotent like God? Is he immortal like God ?(but scripture says he is not.)

But if God were speaking to his intelligent creation, what does man have in common with the angels? and how does he differ from the beast? Man has reason, creative power, and a capacity to choose, either love and obedience, or sin and hatred. God has chosen love. Some angels chose obedience to the Lord of Love, others chose rebellion. The former are still called angels, the latter are called devils. See Isaiah 14, Luke 10:18, Jude 1:6. The created angels, like the man, had the capacity to choose between obedience or rebellion.

When man was placed in the garden he was as of yet innocent. He was given the choice between continued access to the Tree of Life and eternal life, or whether he would choose disobedience and take the one and only one action that had been defined as sin. We know what happened. It was after Adam and Eve took of that fruit that it was said, "They have become like one of us" ... "to know good and evil."

Mankind has known good and evil, and the results have been very tragic. The created angels have known good and evil, there has been war in heaven and Lucifer was cast out, (Isaiah 14, Revelation 12:7), man has known good and evil, and has spilled blood on the ground since Cain and Abel. We know this is true because we have observed it and read it in scripture.

Now, I understand that you may have your own idea as to what is meant by "Let us create man in our own image" and "the knowledge of good and evil" and "the man has become like one of us", but it is not the only possible explanation, thus your interpretation is not a valid proof that God consists of multiple persons.

There is a difference between a passage that proves an interpretation, and a passage that merely supports an interpretation. Don't attack me when I point out the difference. If you really have an absolute proof it will become apparent if you proceed in proper fashion.
 

Apple7

New member
Therefore, knowing that the angelic host was present before the man, "Let us create man in our image" does not require that God is set of multiple persons. God can speak for himself and his host of angels. God does act in cooperation with his created angels, as evidenced in 1 Kings 22: and 2 Chronicles 18, when he even asks his angels for advice as to how to deal with a certain king. This is at least as reasonable a possibility as God speaking to himself in plural.

Actually, it does...

Gen 1.26 - 27

And God said, let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth. And God created (bara) the man in His own image; in the image of God He created (bara)him. He created (bara) them male and female.

This Gen 1 passage informs the reader that our Creator God is plural, via the usage of ‘us’ and ‘our’…repeated three times.

Immediately after this declaration, the creative verb ‘bara’(used only by God) is utilized in three successive acts of creation, when once should have sufficed. Another clear indicator of The Triune Creator.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Once AGAIN, I don't CARE what James White says. So quit using that fallacious idea that he it the standard by which the trinity doctrine is defined in your vain attempt to discredit that validity of that sound Bible doctrine.

There are KINDS of beings in the universe. Animals, plants, angels, etc. Of each of those KINDS there are MANY INDIVIDUAL beings.

God is NOT like other beings in that there is only ONE OF HIM. There is NO other being of ANY KIND like God.

The Bible reveals this ONE BEING (God) as THREE PERSONS: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

It's just that simple.

When I first posted on this board, I asked if James White was correctly representing the Trinity. Another Trinity thread had posted a test to examine one's knowledge of "Trinity" and James White was quoted over 50% of the time for the proofs. Scripture was quoted NONE of the time. Anyway, on this thread at least, the consensus was that he did properly represent Trinity.

So far, it seems that you and I agree on at least two things:
1. James White is not the standard by which truth should be judged,
2. God is a unique being in the universe.

I agree with you that the scripture says that there is one God, at least, one God that is truly God, excluding "false gods" and "gods that shall die like men." Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" it says. Very clear.

As for your second statement, I cannot say that the Bible reveals God as three persons. The only place where "person" is used in relation to God is in the singular. Hebrews 1:3, "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person...." So technically, using the bible's application of "person", God is one person, not two, three, or more.

The only way that God could be "three persons" is if you have a different definition of person. For this I would have to ask (for perhaps I might want to agree with you) what you use to decide the definition of person? I can't find it in the bible, so I have to ask you. Perhaps I might agree with your three persons and add even more besides:

1. The Father
2. The Son of God
3. The Holy Ghost
4. The Lamb of God
5. The Lion of Judah
6. The LORD our Righteousness
7. Melchizedek, the priest of the most High,
8. Alpha and Omega, first and the last, beginning and the end
9. I AM

I would affirm that each and every one of those persons is indeed God and fully God as God is God. That seems pretty simple to me. If we are defining person on our own terms, I see at least eight persons so far and I'm not yet done counting. Up to nine now. That's three times better than any Trinity.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Actually, it does...

Gen 1.26 - 27

And God said, let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth. And God created (bara) the man in His own image; in the image of God He created (bara)him. He created (bara) them male and female.

This Gen 1 passage informs the reader that our Creator God is plural, via the usage of ‘us’ and ‘our’…repeated three times.

Immediately after this declaration, the creative verb ‘bara’(used only by God) is utilized in three successive acts of creation, when once should have sufficed. Another clear indicator of The Triune Creator.

The saying of something "three times" does not a trinity prove. I have repeated things before three (or more) times when once would have sufficed and it does not mean that I am a Trinity.

But, if you want to go that route, Does not the scripture say there are "seven spirits of God" before the throne? and is not God called the "first and the last" seven times in scripture? see Revelation 3:1, Revelation 4:5, Revelation 5:6... Hmm, three instances of seven spirits of God. What could that mean? Could God be twenty-one persons?

But in all peace, let's not burden this thread with points and proofs that can be easily dismissed. I mean no ill.
 

Apple7

New member
The saying of something "three times" does not a trinity prove. I have repeated things before three (or more) times when once would have sufficed and it does not mean that I am a Trinity.

First of all, its not 'the saying of something' in Gen 1, it is the literally act of creation, itself.

Secondly, the creation verb 'bara' is only used of the Creative work of God.

Thus...for it to be used three successive times means that three separate Persons are involved in the act....because scripture is clear that there is only ONE God, NOT three.




But, if you want to go that route, Does not the scripture say there are "seven spirits of God" before the throne? and is not God called the "first and the last" seven times in scripture? see Revelation 3:1, Revelation 4:5, Revelation 5:6... Hmm, three instances of seven spirits of God. What could that mean? Could God be twenty-one persons?


First of all, 'pneumata' never refers to God, Himself, in the NT. So, this is not attaching a figure of seven to Him.

Secondly, the title 'First & Last' is applied three times in the OT to Yahweh...and Three times in the NT to Jesus.

Again...a clear sign of The Trinity.

You picked the wrong Book with which to deny The Trinity...





But in all peace, let's not burden this thread with points and proofs that can be easily dismissed. I mean no ill.

We wouldn't want you to be exposed anymore than you already have....would we...?
 

keypurr

Well-known member
You need to address the scriptures I gave.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit,

Self Explanede:

Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.


2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit,

2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

The spirit of Christ can give us hope.

You are not seeing that the spirit being Christ and the spirit of Christ are two subjects.
 

God's Truth

New member
Self Explanede:

Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.




2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

The spirit of Christ can give us hope.

You are not seeing that the spirit being Christ and the spirit of Christ are two subjects.

You cannot see how ludicrous it is what you said.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Your attempted "guilt by association" FAILS.

I don't really care what James White thinks. The Bible says that God is three persons. I believe the Bible.

I'm sure that you know, because you're super smart, that the word ONE in Duet 6:4 is a one of UNITY and not a one of absolute singularity.
H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258

Like many of those that try "prove" your point with ONE verse, you need to read more and let it ALL speak.
Gen 3:22-23 (AKJV/PCE)
(3:22) ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: (3:23) Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Same word ONE used here as "one of US".

Go back to the Bible and learn the truth.

How does one of us prove a Trinity?
 
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