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  • Originally posted by KingdomRose View Post
    Re. Rosenritter's post #14751:

    Nonsense. I John 5:7 does not harmonize with the rest of John's writing. It is NOT "plainly supported" by any kind of evidence. In fact, it DISRUPTS the grammar of the passage. What ancient witnesses far predate the earliest mss. that we have access to? Name them.

    Who else is "picking their side regardless of the evidence"? You are a piece of work. That final smug statement of yours applies beautifully to you.
    KingdomRose, once upon a time I believed as you do concerning the integrity of this passage, because I believed what I was told. My understanding was changed after examining the evidence, even when I did not yet understand the passage. Thus my understanding now follows the scripture, even though it may not have always done so. It seems to me that you are starting with a Unitarian belief, and from there attacking the passage because it doesn't fit what you accept.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
      KingdomRose, once upon a time I believed as you do concerning the integrity of this passage, because I believed what I was told. My understanding was changed after examining the evidence, even when I did not yet understand the passage. Thus my understanding now follows the scripture, even though it may not have always done so. It seems to me that you are starting with a Unitarian belief, and from there attacking the passage because it doesn't fit what you accept.
      You are still in error when you claim that there are not three that exist at the same time.

      Comment


      • I apologize that I couldn't find the relevant post to reply towards, but concerning whether Christians are under law, I thought this might help:

        1Co 9:19-21 KJV
        (19) For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
        (20) And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
        (21) To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.


        Within the same breath Paul is using the word law to mean two different things. The Jew is under law, but there are those without law. Yet those without law are still under law to God and Christ.

        This also ties into the discussion of whether God is Christ, as Paul uses the two terms interchangeably here without batting an eye. The law to God is the same as the law to Christ.

        So if Paul was under the law to God and Christ, what was that law? It certainly cannot be correct to say that we have no law. Christ did give us commandments:

        Joh 13:34-35 KJV
        (34) A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
        (35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

        1Jn 2:1-11 KJV
        (1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
        (2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
        (3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
        (4) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
        (5) But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
        (6) He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
        (7) Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
        (8) Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
        (9) He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
        (10) He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
        (11) But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

        1Jn 4:20-21 KJV
        (20) If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
        (21) And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

        I apologize if this sounds like the proverbial beating the dead horse. I stumbled on this by accident and thought it might be helpful for clearing up a previous discussion. Law can mean more than one thing, it can refer to more than one law, we today are under the law of Christ.

        Mat 5:43-48 KJV
        (43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
        (44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
        (45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
        (46) For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
        (47) And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
        (48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
          I apologize that I couldn't find the relevant post to reply towards, but concerning whether Christians are under law, I thought this might help:

          1Co 9:19-21 KJV
          (19) For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
          (20) And unto theJews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
          (21) To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

          Within the samebreath Paul is using the word law to mean two different things. The Jew is under law, but there are those without law. Yet those without law are still under law to God and Christ.

          This also ties into the discussion of whether God is Christ, as Paul uses the two terms interchangeably here without batting an eye. The law to God is the same as the law to Christ.

          So if Paul was under the law to God and Christ, what was that law? It certainly cannot be correct to say that we have no law. Christ did give us commandments:

          Joh 13:34-35 KJV
          (34) A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
          (35) By this shall all men know that ye are mydisciples, if ye have love one to another.

          1Jn 2:1-11 KJV
          (1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
          (2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
          (3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
          (4) He that saith, I know him, andkeepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
          (5) But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
          (6) He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
          (7) Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
          (8) Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
          (9) He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
          (10) He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
          (11) But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

          1Jn 4:20-21 KJV
          (20) If a mansay, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
          (21) And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

          I apologize if this sounds like the proverbial beating the dead horse. I stumbled on this by accident and thought it might be helpful for clearing up a previous discussion. Law can mean more than one thing, it can refer to more than one law, we today are under the law of Christ.

          Mat 5:43-48 KJV
          (43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thyneighbour, and hate thine enemy.
          (44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
          (45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
          (46) For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
          (47) And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
          (48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
          Following your line of reasoning, if the Torah or YHWH's law is referred to as "The Law Of Moses", then Moses is likewise YHWH? If the Spirit of Elijah, appears to represent or is being used interchangeably with the Spirit of YHWH, then Elijah is YHWH?

          2Ki_2:9* And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.

          2Ki_2:15* And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.

          Luk 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

          The spirit and power of YHWH, is what is being spoken of here. Not the actual spirit and power of a human being, like Elijah. The fact that the law can be referred to as the law of Moses, or the law of Messiah, doesn't imply that the law is actually, in essence, the law of Moses or of Messiah. The law originates with YHWH, the heavenly Father, who is the one true Alohim. The spirit and power and the law, are actually YHWH's.

          Comment


          • Here's a good article on 1st John 5:7...

            https://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-john-57-8

            For those reading this thread, just compare the arguments and come to your own conclusions. The KJV ONLY proponents defend the verse as authentic, but there is plenty of reasonable evidence showing otherwise. Again, just compare the arguments of the KJV only folks, with most of biblical scholarship, and come to your own conclusions.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by marhig View Post
              Strange question pops?

              Firstly, I don't like calling people unsaved, outsiders or outside the gate, I have hope for everyone. I've even seen people say that innocent babies are unsaved, it sickens me to think of others like that. Probably because I don't see salvation as many others do. And I don't think of myself as elect, or a saint in the way some others do either, I'm just an unprofitable servant, I'm nothing special. And I remember what I myself was like without God so I can't say anything about anyone else.

              As I said I see being saved differently to many. I believe that when I first truly believed and repented, I believe that God forgave me of my past sins, from then i knew in my heart, that I had to live by the will of God and turn from sin. And once God blessed me with the Spirit, he through Christ is helping me to overcome daily, saving me from death, satan and this world, as long as I truly love him from my heart, always put him first and always be ready to do his will and obey him, and I believe that he will never leave me and I am sealed by the Spirit if I remain in his goodness and do his will.

              I also believe that I have to endure to the end, deny myself, take up my cross and suffer whatever is set before me, and keep my faith, living by God's will until my last breath and Jesus is our perfect example to follow. He lived the way perfectly. I'm not to love the things of the world, or the works of the flesh, and I'm not to look back at my old life, and God by his grace, is saving me through faith, he is changing my heart more and more so that those things are starting to mean nothing to me anymore. God has saved me from death and darkness and has given me life and light through his precious son Christ Jesus, and I'm truly blessed.

              I hope that wasn't too long, I'm just wondering, why did you want to know?
              Thank you.

              It was because I find in you no capacity to lie when it comes to the things you do know in relation to yourself and GOD.

              You proved my point beautifully. Thank you; and GT too, as I had nearly missed your post all together.


              peace

              Comment


              • Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                I believe because of the scriptures that God chooses us, and we are called elect because we believe and obey Him. Calvinists say they are elected and chosen by God but they do not know why.

                I believe Calvinism is a false doctrine.

                As for the elect and called being deceived...they can be deceived that is why we are all warned.
                But doesn't scripture show that the elect aren't the sheep who can be led astray, but more shepards or reflections of the light and direction of GOD?

                I'm really not sure that the elect are also the sheep and the deceived masses.

                I don't believe Calvinism because it makes god out to be evil. But I do believe that the elect are guided by GOD and will not be lead astray by man as GOD guides them and not man.

                I would like to discuss this; maybe not here....

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Fisherofmen View Post
                  Apart from the law meaning the Old Covenant Law. Faith in Jesus Christ meaning a living faith which includes good works (1 Cor.13:2, Jas. 2:20).
                  Let's look at the passages surrounding those two verses.

                  Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.For we know in part and we prophesy in part.But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. - 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...3&version=NKJV

                  Fisher, first question:

                  Who is Paul talking to in this book?
                  Do you know?

                  What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. - James 2:14-26 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...6&version=NKJV

                  Second question:

                  Who was James writing to in his book?
                  Do you know?

                  (More on the "love" in a moment.)

                  Freely by His grace, meaning there was nothing I could do to merit the initial grace. Romans therefore is certainly not heresy, it is being misinterpreted by faith aloners, who would have Scripture be contradictory instead of giving up their error.
                  Let's see if we can find where this supposed "error" is.

                  Your are misinterpreting St. Paul. He specifically says in the above "deeds of the law". Just one chapter earlier St. Paul warns the Romans that they will be judged according to their works. Obviously he cannot come back in the next chapter and say works are irrelevant. THEY ARE EITHER NOT THE SAME WORKS (because they are Old Covenant works), AND/OR THEY ARE NOT DONE IN THE SAME SPIRIT (meaning they are done while denying God's grace and Jesus Christ). This is the boasting spoken of, because they thought they could do good WITHOUT God's grace and faith in Jesus. I am saying nothing of the sort. I'm saying that we can do no salvific work apart from God's grace and faith in Jesus (obedience).
                  Is this another way of saying that we must work to keep our salvation once we accept Christ?

                  Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness, and patience, and longsuffering? Knowest thou not, that the benignity of God leadeth thee to penance? [5] But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath, and revelation of the just judgment of God.[6] Who will render to every man according to his works. (Rom 2:4-6)

                  Notice that in the very book you quote from, we read that God renders to every man according to his works.
                  Funnily enough, if you actually would have paid attention to how Paul writes in Romans 2, you would have noticed that he is not writing to the Gentiles, but to the Jews. The rest of the book, however, is addressed to all.

                  Notice!:

                  (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them ) - Romans 2:13-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...5&version=NKJV

                  Do people normally talk to groups of people as if they're mentioning them in a conversation to someone else? No.

                  Paul is talking to the Jews about the Gentiles.

                  Not only in Romans but throughout Scripture...

                  (Psalms 62:13, Prov. 24:12, Mat. 16:27, Rom. 2:5-6, Rev. 20:13, Rev. 22:12)
                  Every single one of those verses (except for Psalm 62:13, which doesn't exist; did you mean 62:12?) is addressed to the Children of God, aka Israel/the Jews/Hebrews. Not the Gentiles.

                  What you are doing is called proof texting. You put a few verses in a vacuum and misinterpret it despite volumes of evidence to the contrary.
                  Says the person who, in nearly every one of his posts so far in this thread, has posted references to groups of only single verses.

                  You're the one proof texting, as I'm giving you entire paragraphs, even entire chapters, to show you what the author is talking about, and trying to show you how it fits in to the big picture of the Bible.

                  So this is supposed to nullify all the verses which say that God will judge us according to our works and the faith without works is dead and that it is possible to have a faith that moves mountains and yet not have works?
                  NO! Of course not!

                  You say that because you don't have the big picture!

                  Do you wish to throw these verses "in the oven" in imitation of the apostate Luther?
                  Of course not!

                  [QUOTE]I told you, works of the Old Covenant Law and/or works of our own accord (denying God's grace and faith in Christ) are what is being referred to. NOT works done acknowledging God's grace, and in obedience to Christ.[QUOTE]

                  I get that. I'm saying that we can't get to heaven with works alone.

                  I'm also saying that faith alone is needed to go to heaven.

                  I'm saying that works are not needed at all for salvation, only faith.

                  It's really not that hard to understand. Scripture cannot contradict itself.
                  I completely agree. I'm not saying that the verses contradict, I'm saying that they all mean exactly what they say, but that what most of what Paul wrote was to the Gentiles, and that everything in the Gospels, the beginning of Acts, Hebrews, James, Peter's books, Johns books, Jude, and Revelation is intended for the Nation of Israel. It's all equally valid, but Paul's message is completely different than the other authors' messages.

                  If you think I'm wrong than EXPLAIN the following verses. If not, you admit that they are erroneous by default, hence you cannot be Christian.
                  False dichotomy. There's a third option. I don't think scripture contradicts itself, nor do I think that any of those verses are erroneous.

                  I think that they all work together to tell a story.

                  -----------------------------------------------------------

                  (Psalms 62:13,
                  Doesn't exist.

                  [QUOTE]Prov. 24:12,[QUOTE]

                  Author is speaking to Israel.

                  Mat. 10:22, Mat. 16:27, Mat 19:16-17, Mat. 25:31-46,
                  But He answered and said, I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. - Matthew 15:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...4&version=NKJV

                  Rom 2:5-6,
                  Addressed above. Paul is speaking specifically to the Jews.

                  1 Cor. 13:2,
                  Paul here, speaking to the Christians in Corinth, is not talking about works, he is talking about love, because, as he states in Romans:

                  There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. - Romans 8:1-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV

                  What does it mean to walk in the Spirit?

                  Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. - Romans 13:8-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0&version=NKJV

                  Phil 2:12,


                  Heb. 5:9,
                  Fisher, what is the full title of book called Hebrews?

                  Jas. 2:20, Jas. 2:24,
                  Fisher, who is James writing to? (Hint: James 1:1)

                  Rev. 20:13,
                  Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:11-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...5&version=NKJV

                  Maybe you weren't paying attention when you read this passage. This is talking about the Great White Throne Judgment, where those who died rejecting God, and those who never accepted Him, are judged. It's certainly not talking about either Jews or Gentiles.

                  Rev. 22:12)
                  This verse is not talking about salvation, it's reward for doing good works, like the jewels in the crowns we receive, where the stubble is burnt away in the flame.

                  Good works are always a good thing when done out of love. But they won't get you into heaven, and it is wrong to think that you have to work to keep your salvation when Christ already paid the full price.

                  -----------------------------------------------------------

                  Originally posted by Fisherofmen View Post
                  Works done by one's own strength (denying God's grace) and without faith in Jesus Christ are a debt. Abraham's faith was true because of his obedience to God.
                  Abraham was justified by his faith, not by his obedience. As the following verse states:

                  By faith he that is called Abraham, obeyed to go out into a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. [9] By faith he abode in the land, dwelling in cottages, with Isaac and Jacob, the co-heirs of the same promise. [10] For he looked for a city that hath foundations; whose builder and maker is God. (Heb. 11:8-10)
                  Hebrews 11 is the hall of "FAITH," not the Hall of "Faith plus works."

                  Good deeds done in obedience to God are meritorious and salvific as St. Paul says earlier in Romans...

                  (Rom 2:5-6)

                  and in many other verses...

                  (Mat 10:22 (Just added, thanks to Danoh), Mat 19:16-17, Mat 25:31-46, Phil 2:12, Heb. 5:9, Rev. 20:13, Rev. 22:12)
                  Meritorious, yes. Salvific? For Israel prior to them being cut off? Sure. For Christians in the Body of Christ since then? Absolutely not.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by popsthebuilder View Post
                    But doesn't scripture show that the elect aren't the sheep who can be led astray, but more shepards or reflections of the light and direction of GOD?
                    I just can't see how anyone can get around it that the elect can be led astray. Why are we warned if we couldn't be led astray?
                    Originally posted by popsthebuilder View Post
                    I'm really not sure that the elect are also the sheep and the deceived masses.
                    One must become a sheep to be elected. As for the sheep being deceived masses, from where do you get that?

                    Originally posted by popsthebuilder View Post
                    I don't believe Calvinism because it makes god out to be evil. But I do believe that the elect are guided by GOD and will not be lead astray by man as GOD guides them and not man.

                    I would like to discuss this; maybe not here....
                    I will just list some warning scriptures and then if you want to talk about it more somewhere else we can do that.

                    People can fall away from Jesus see Galatians 5:4; 1 Corinthians 10:12; 2 Peter 3:17. We are warned not to drift away, Hebrews 2:1, not to draw back, Hebrews 10:38; to hold on and stand firm, Hebrews 3:14, 1 Corinthians 15:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15. We are told how not to fall, 2 Peter 1:10, how not to be hardened, Hebrews 3:8,13.

                    God can throw people out, Matthew 22:13, blot people out, Exodus 32:32-33, remove your lampstand, Revelation 2:5, sign you a place with unbelievers, Luke 12:46, and cut you off, Romans 11:19-21. We can become defiled, Hebrews 12:15. Our lamps can burn out, Matthew 25:8. We can cause ourselves to have to have Christ formed in us again, Galatians 4:19.

                    We are told how to remain in Jesus, John 6:56, and if we do Jesus will remain in us, John 15:4. Jesus tells us of the good if we remain in him, John 15:5, and of the bad when we do not, John 15:6. Jesus exhorts us to remain in him, John 15:9, 10, Acts 14:22, and 1 John 2:24.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by marhig View Post
                      Does your bank account have freewill like Jesus did?
                      My bank account does the will of myself, not its own will. While from the perspective of inside the bank itself it may appear that my account takes actions, these are actually my actions. Even if it performs automatic transactions, it is because I decreed these actions.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by popsthebuilder View Post
                        I am using a phone.
                        My sincere sympathy goes out to you.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by popsthebuilder View Post
                          I didn't say man wasn't free to change.

                          I said GOD knows what they will do and be, and that GOD is merciful.

                          I understand the implications based on limited power and cognition. But we are speaking of GOD, who formed all things and through Him allnthinhs are sustained.

                          GOD is long-suffering.
                          That would still leave God as the author of sin.

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                          • Originally posted by popsthebuilder View Post
                            So you too think the Will of GOD can just be averted by HIS creation?
                            Such is obvious to anyone who has read the Bible. God did not want Adam and Eve to disobey. His will was stated in his commandment, "thou shalt not touch the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." Adam and Eve averted his will. This story is repeated in various forms throughout its pages. When God gives a command, and his creation defies that command, they are going against his will.

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                            • Originally posted by popsthebuilder View Post
                              Spoiler
                              Matthew: 24. 24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

                              Isaiah: 42. 1. Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5. Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6. I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7. To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

                              Isaiah: 45. 1. Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut; 2. I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron: 3. And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel. 4. For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. 5. I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6. That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10. Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? 11. Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts. 15. Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. 16. They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols. 17. But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. 18. For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19. I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. 20. Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 25. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

                              Mark: 13. 20. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. 21. And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: 22. For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

                              Luke: 18. 7. And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8. I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? 9. And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 19. And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. 27. And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

                              Romans: 8. 28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

                              I'm gonna stop so no-one gets mad about reading scripture.

                              Do you still think the elect and called and destined can be deceived ultimately?

                              I really hope not.
                              Yes, those elected may not fulfill what they were selected to do, those called may not heed their calling, those destined may not fulfill their destiny.

                              Matthew 21:28-31 KJV
                              (28) But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
                              (29) He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
                              (30) And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
                              (31) Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

                              It was the will of the father that both sons help in the field. Both were called. One fulfilled his destiny.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by RealityJerk View Post


                                Following your line of reasoning, if the Torah or YHWH's law is referred to as "The Law Of Moses", then Moses is likewise YHWH? If the Spirit of Elijah, appears to represent or is being used interchangeably with the Spirit of YHWH, then Elijah is YHWH?
                                No, that's really bizarre. Don't do drugs. Or at least don't do any more drugs.

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