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Things that are different are not the same that includes God and Jesus Christ.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by steko View Post
    Because of the reaction by the Jews, it's clear that by saying that He and the Father are one, He was declaring that He, as a man, is also GOD.....and not just a god, but the GOD of Israel.

    By Christ's use of the word 'hen'-one neuter, and not 'heis'- one masculine, He is not saying that He and the Father are one 'person', but one in essence, nature or being.

    Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
    Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
    Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
    Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.


    The Pharisees had earlier accused Jesus of making himself equal with God in John 5:18.

    Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.


    Christ then affirms that He is declaring that very thing when He then says that He gives life to the dead just as the Father does and that all men should honor Him just as much as they would honor the Father.
    This is clearly claiming equality with GOD.
    I don't know how anyone could miss it. The Jews certainly didn't.

    Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
    Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
    Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
    You need to read the context as well.

    Jesus Christ did the will of the Father, not his own will.

    They were always on the same page, so to speak.

    They were one in purpose

    No one takes eternal life from a believer because both God and Jesus Christ make sure of that.

    John 10:25-36
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Tambora View Post
      You should read John 10 for yourself sometime.
      "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

      "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

      Pro scripture = Protestant

      Comment


      • #18
        [QUOTE=oatmeal;4583499]
        Originally posted by Cross Reference View Post

        So what? Good question.

        Since God and Jesus are different, they are not the same.

        Therefore:

        God is not Jesus and Jesus is not God.

        Therefore:

        Doctrines, like the trinity, that teach that the two are the same are in error.

        Therefore:

        Doctrines like the trinity or those that teach that Jesus is God should be abandoned so that truth, instead of of error is taught by believers



        Since Jesus Christ had to learn, but God is all knowing, again, they are different, therefore they are not the same.

        Therefore Jesus Christ is not God and God is not Jesus Christ.

        Since believers are sons of God, we should likewise learn the ways of our Father and imitate His ways. I John 3:1-2, Romans 8:14, Ephesians 5:1

        Even if I did all my Father's will, that would mean, as Jesus Christ clearly declared, that he did not do his own will, but the Father's.

        Thus the Father's will is clearly different than the son's will, therefore God is not Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is not God.

        When you have really thought about that, you will open up floodgates of understanding of what it means to be a son of God, and you will begin to truly appreciate the life and accomplishments of Jesus Christ, a man, the son of God.

        What Jesus Christ did is incredible because he is a man, not God.
        Hey! Wake up and address what I wrote instead of keeping on with your convoluted reasoning.

        Jesus could have called down ten thousand angels to destroy the world. Of Himself, He didn't have to redeem the world. Why did he? Why was He compelled to except He expressed the "PHYSICAL HEART OF GOD"?

        Did He live in fear of His Father? Or was it HIS LOVE for you that He went to the cross to redeem your sorry butt? What? I gave you sound reasoning you choose to ignore. You explain why HE did so when HE had authority, equal to God, His Father, to do whatever HE deemed was the course of action to pursue?? Don't come back with anymore of your religious agenda ridden propaganda, OK? Be the Christian you profess to be.
        "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by oatmeal View Post
          Therefore I have no reason to believe you.
          I'll provide you the verse but that doesn't mean you will believe it.
          He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. (Colossians 1:15 NKJV)

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by oatmeal View Post
            Where does scripture say that?

            Maybe you have verses, maybe you don't, but without them, all you offer is more opinion.

            Therefore I have no reason to believe you.
            Colossians 1:16 KJV -

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by patrick jane View Post
              Colossians 1:16 KJV -

              That is a good verse to use IF we remember the understanding it is referring to is "the WORD, which was wth God and was God", the expression of Him Who united Himself within the soul and body of the man Jesus, then it all [gospel and letters]make complete sense.
              "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

              Comment


              • #22
                [QUOTE=Cross Reference;4583512]
                Originally posted by oatmeal View Post

                Hey! Wake up and address what I wrote instead of keeping on with your convoluted reasoning.

                Jesus could have called down ten thousand angels to destroy the world. Of Himself, He didn't have to redeem the world. Why did he? Why was He compelled to except He expressed the "PHYSICAL HEART OF GOD"?

                Did He live in fear of His Father? Or was it HIS LOVE for you that He went to the cross to redeem your sorry butt? What? I gave you sound reasoning you choose to ignore. You explain why HE did so when HE had authority, equal to God, His Father, to do whatever HE deemed was the course of action to pursue?? Don't come back with anymore of your religious agenda ridden propaganda, OK? Be the Christian you profess to be.
                You are a son of God by seed, not by adoption.

                I John 3:1-2, I Peter 1:23

                I did answer your questions, however, it not up to me to determine if you like my answers or not.

                Clearly, you did not like my answers, but that is not my problem.

                Do you do your Father's will? Are you one with God when you do God's will? Yes, you are.

                Being one with the Father is not unique to Jesus Christ. Everyone who has done the Father's will is one with the Father at least on those parts of God's will that they chose to do.

                Jesus Christ always chose to always to the Father's will, thus He was one with the Father in all of God's will for him.

                The reason he did what he did is to fulfill the commandment, "Honor your father and mother" He did so by doing his Father's will.

                Exodus 20:12

                Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

                Jesus Christ honors his Father. So should we as sons of God.

                Jesus Christ first and foremost loved God with all his heart, soul and mind

                Jesus Christ kept the first and great commandment and the second one as well.

                Matthew 22:37-39

                37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

                38 This is the first and great commandment.

                39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

                That is why he did what he did.

                He loved God because God first loved him.

                John 17:24

                Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

                Even as God loved us even before we existed.

                Romans 5:8

                But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

                1 John 4:19

                We love him, because he first loved us.

                You explain why HE did so when HE had authority, equal to God, His Father, to do whatever HE deemed was the course of action to pursue??
                Where did Jesus get his authority?

                John 5:20

                For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

                John 8:42

                Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

                John 14:24

                He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

                John 14:28

                Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

                John 14:31

                But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

                John 5:19,30,26-27

                Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

                I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

                For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

                And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

                John 10:18

                No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

                John 12:49

                For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

                John 14:31

                But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do....

                John 15:10

                If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

                Matthew 12:50

                For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

                Are you a brother of Jesus Christ?

                Mark 12:6

                Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.

                Do you revere God's son?

                John 4:34

                Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

                John 6:37

                All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

                Who gave to who? Who had something to give to the son?

                John 6:38

                For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

                If Jesus is God, why didn't he do his own will?

                John 7:17

                If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

                It is verses like the above that clearly demonstrate that the son is inferior to, derived from and subordinate to God.

                Are you equal to do the Father's will for your life?

                Yes, you are, you are a son of God, I John 3:1-2. II Corinthians 3:5-6, 9:8
                "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

                "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

                Pro scripture = Protestant

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by oatmeal View Post
                  You need to read the context as well.

                  Jesus Christ did the will of the Father, not his own will.

                  They were always on the same page, so to speak.

                  They were one in purpose

                  No one takes eternal life from a believer because both God and Jesus Christ make sure of that.

                  John 10:25-36
                  Not as keen as the Jews were...huh?
                  Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
                  Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by jamie View Post
                    I'll provide you the verse but that doesn't mean you will believe it.
                    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. (Colossians 1:15 NKJV)
                    Indeed, Jesus Christ is the image of the invisible God.

                    That does not say he is God

                    God is invisible, Jesus Christ is not. The two are different, therefore, they are not the same.

                    That verse does not say that Jesus is God, it says that he is the image of the invisible God.

                    Huge difference.

                    Do you have photo of your father? Is that photo literally your father? No, the photo is not your father, your father is your father, the photo is simply an image of your father!
                    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

                    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

                    Pro scripture = Protestant

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Pack it in oatmeal. Learn to know when you are OTL and get a new life.
                      "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by patrick jane View Post
                        Colossians 1:16 KJV -
                        God created by or for Jesus Christ

                        Ephesians 3:9 KJV

                        And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

                        the words "by Jesus Christ" are found only in the Stephen's Greek text from which the KJV was translated. Thus, those words should be omitted.

                        Thus, Ephesians 3:9 should read, "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things"

                        God created.

                        Mark 13:19

                        For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

                        Genesis 1:1

                        In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

                        Who created?

                        a. God

                        b. the son of God

                        c. Jesus Christ

                        d. the image of God

                        "a" is the only correct answer.

                        God created

                        God told Moses that He made Moses god to Pharaoh. So are you going to tell me that Moses created? Exodus 7:1 KJV

                        And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
                        "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

                        "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

                        Pro scripture = Protestant

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Cross Reference View Post
                          Pack it in oatmeal. Learn to know when you are OTL and get a new life.
                          Clearly, you were overwhelmed by scripture.

                          Why not read and believe the scripture I supplied for you instead of insulting the messenger?
                          "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

                          "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

                          Pro scripture = Protestant

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by oatmeal View Post
                            Clearly, you were overwhelmed by scripture.

                            Why not read and believe the scripture I supplied for you instead of insulting the messenger?
                            You go first. I and others, have "Clearly"given you understanding of the same scripture quote and a bunch you refuse to read.. You ignore it because it refutes your untoward opinion. That's dishonest.

                            What hole did you pop out of with such a damnable opinion? What books do you read that feed your ego? Who are your mentors? Certainly you won't be ashamed to mention their names?
                            "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Cross Reference View Post
                              You go first. I and others, have "Clearly"given you understanding of the same scripture quote and a bunch you refuse to read.. You ignore it because it refutes your untoward opinion. That's dishonest.

                              What hole did you pop out of with such a damnable opinion? What books do you read that feed your ego? Who are your mentors? Certainly you won't be ashamed to mention their names?
                              You are in the clear majority on this thread, who am I that I should take preeminence over the clear majority?

                              I am but one a few, you have hundreds(?) of fellows.

                              Show me which scriptures I have not believed.

                              I have showed you which ones you do not consider.

                              Jesus took his lessons from his Father. John 5:19,30

                              Jesus Christ has to learn for only God knows all, Jesus had to learn from God. First from scripture, then by God showing him via revelation
                              "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

                              "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

                              Pro scripture = Protestant

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by oatmeal View Post
                                You are in the clear majority on this thread, who am I that I should take preeminence over the clear majority?

                                I am but one a few, you have hundreds(?) of fellows.

                                Show me which scriptures I have not believed.

                                I have showed you which ones you do not consider.

                                Jesus took his lessons from his Father. John 5:19,30
                                It is not a question of which ones you believe but those you mis-construe for your advantage in argument. You will get no more from me. Argue with yourself.
                                "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

                                Comment

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