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  • Matthew 11:10 - Exodus 23:20

    Matthew 11:7-15
    7. Moreover, as they went their way, Yeshua commenced saying to the multitudes concerning Yochanan: What did you go out into the wilderness to look at? A reed shaken with the wind?
    8. But having gone out what did you see? A man clothed in malakos raiment? Behold, they that wear malakos raiment are in the houses of kings.
    9. But having gone out what did you see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, even much surpassing a prophet:
    10. He it is concerning whom it is written, "Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee."
    11. Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there has not arisen a greater than Yochanan the Immerser: yet he that is but little in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he.
    12. Moreover, from the days of Yochanan the Immerser until now, the kingdom of the heavens suffers violence and the violent seize it by force:
    13. For all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yochanan.
    14. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Eliyahu, that is about to come.
    15. He that has ears, let him hear!


    In the passage above, from Matthew 11:10, we find the following Scripture quote and statement in which the Master Teacher Yeshua, in quoting from the Scripture, emphatically states that the Scripture which he quotes concerns Yochanan the Immerser:

    Matthew 11:10
    10. He it is concerning whom it is written, "Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee."


    Where is this statement written in the Scripture? It is only found in one place and that is not Malachi 3:1, as the scholars and their commentaries all appear to assume, but rather the statement is a direct quote from the LXX-Septuagint version of Exodus 23:20a. The Scripture quote from Matthew 11:10b is copied straight from the Septuagint, verbatim, word for word from the Greek:

    Matthew 11:10 W/H 1881
    οὗτός ἐστιν περὶ οὗ γέγραπται Ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου, ὃς κατασκευάσει τὴν ὁδόν σου ἔμπροσθέν σου.

    http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/11-10.htm

    Exodus 23:20 LXX-Septuagint
    Καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου, ἵνα φυλάξῃ σε ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ, ὅπως εἰσαγάγῃ σε εἰς τὴν γῆν, ἣν ἡτοίμασά σοι.
    http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint
    /chapter.asp?book=2&page=23

    The statement from Malachi 3:1a-b is not even close:

    Malachi 3:1 LXX-Septuagint
    ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου, καὶ ἐξαίφνης ἥξει εἰς τὸν ναὸν ἑαυτοῦ Κύριος, ὃν ὑμεῖς ζητεῖτε, καὶ ὁ ἄγγελος τῆς διαθήκης, ὃν ὑμεῖς θέλετε· ἰδοὺ ἔρχεται, λέγει Κύριος παντοκράτωρ.

    http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek...book=42&page=3

    Without Καὶ (And) Exodus 23:20a is identical to Matthew 11:10b:

    Exodus 23:20a LXX-Septuagint
    ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου,

    Matthew 11:10b
    Ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου,


    The statement from Malachi 3:1a-b is not the same:

    Malachi 3:1a-b LXX-Septuagint
    ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου


    Here it is in KJV English:

    Matthew 11:10 KJV
    10. For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

    Exodus 23:20 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
    20 And, behold, I send my angel before thy face, that he may keep thee in the way, that he may bring thee into the land which I have prepared for thee.

    http://biblehub.com/sep/exodus/23.htm

    Malachi 3:1 KJV
    1. Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

    Malachi 3:1 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
    1. Behold, I send forth my messenger, and he shall survey the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come into his temple, even the angel of the covenant, whom ye take pleasure in: behold, he is coming, saith the Lord Almighty.

    http://biblehub.com/sep/malachi/3.htm

    Matthew 11:10b duplicates Exodus 23:20a word for word as if copied straight from the Septuagint. And "THEE-THINE-YOU-YOUR" [σου] and "ME-MY-MINE" [μου] are not the same in any language. Yeshua therefore emphatically states from the Torah that Yochanan the Immerser is not only Eliyahu-Elijah but likewise the Malak-Angel-Messenger of Exodus 23:20-23. Likewise Matthew is not the only place where we find this quote from Exodus but again it appears in both Mark 1:2 and Luke 7:27. Mark reveals even more detail as the author places this quote from Exodus 23:20 together with the quote from Isaiah 40:3. This reveals that when Yeshayah-Isaiah speaks of "the voice of a Cryer in the wilderness" the Prophet is speaking of the Malak of Exodus 23:20 and, therefore, the same is Yochanan the Immerser according to the doctrine of Yeshua:

    Mark 1:2-3
    2. As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee [Exodus 23:20].
    3. The voice of a Cryer in the wilderness, Prepare you the way of YHWH, make His paths straight [Isaiah 40:3].


    If these things be true, and they are, then how can these things be properly understood? Can it be that Yochanan pre-existed his physical incarnation? Obviously not according to fundamental Christian doctrine. What it means then is that one must be fully willing to believe all that Yeshua teaches and this includes another emphatic statement from the same Matthew passage quoted at the top where Yeshua says that all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yochanan:

    Matthew 11:13
    13. For all the Prophets and
    the Torah prophesied until Yochanan.

    Unless you can prove it wrong what does this mean to YOUR doctrine?


  • #2
    Originally posted by daqq View Post
    Matthew 11:7-15
    7. Moreover, as they went their way, Yeshua commenced saying to the multitudes concerning Yochanan: What did you go out into the wilderness to look at? A reed shaken with the wind?
    8. But having gone out what did you see? A man clothed in malakos raiment? Behold, they that wear malakos raiment are in the houses of kings.
    9. But having gone out what did you see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, even much surpassing a prophet:
    10. He it is concerning whom it is written, "Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee."
    11. Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there has not arisen a greater than Yochanan the Immerser: yet he that is but little in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he.
    12. Moreover, from the days of Yochanan the Immerser until now, the kingdom of the heavens suffers violence and the violent seize it by force:
    13. For all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yochanan.
    14. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Eliyahu, that is about to come.
    15. He that has ears, let him hear!


    In the passage above, from Matthew 11:10, we find the following Scripture quote and statement in which the Master Teacher Yeshua, in quoting from the Scripture, emphatically states that the Scripture which he quotes concerns Yochanan the Immerser:

    Matthew 11:10
    10. He it is concerning whom it is written, "Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee."


    Where is this statement written in the Scripture? It is only found in one place and that is not Malachi 3:1, as the scholars and their commentaries all appear to assume, but rather the statement is a direct quote from the LXX-Septuagint version of Exodus 23:20a. The Scripture quote from Matthew 11:10b is copied straight from the Septuagint, verbatim, word for word from the Greek:

    Matthew 11:10 W/H 1881
    οὗτός ἐστιν περὶ οὗ γέγραπται Ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου, ὃς κατασκευάσει τὴν ὁδόν σου ἔμπροσθέν σου.

    http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/11-10.htm

    Exodus 23:20 LXX-Septuagint
    Καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου, ἵνα φυλάξῃ σε ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ, ὅπως εἰσαγάγῃ σε εἰς τὴν γῆν, ἣν ἡτοίμασά σοι.
    http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint
    /chapter.asp?book=2&page=23

    The statement from Malachi 3:1a-b is not even close:

    Malachi 3:1 LXX-Septuagint
    ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου, καὶ ἐξαίφνης ἥξει εἰς τὸν ναὸν ἑαυτοῦ Κύριος, ὃν ὑμεῖς ζητεῖτε, καὶ ὁ ἄγγελος τῆς διαθήκης, ὃν ὑμεῖς θέλετε· ἰδοὺ ἔρχεται, λέγει Κύριος παντοκράτωρ.

    http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek...book=42&page=3

    Without Καὶ (And) Exodus 23:20a is identical to Matthew 11:10b:

    Exodus 23:20a LXX-Septuagint
    ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου,

    Matthew 11:10b
    Ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου,


    The statement from Malachi 3:1a-b is not the same:

    Malachi 3:1a-b LXX-Septuagint
    ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου


    Here it is in KJV English:

    Matthew 11:10 KJV
    10. For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

    Exodus 23:20 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
    20 And, behold, I send my angel before thy face, that he may keep thee in the way, that he may bring thee into the land which I have prepared for thee.

    http://biblehub.com/sep/exodus/23.htm

    Malachi 3:1 KJV
    1. Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

    Malachi 3:1 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
    1. Behold, I send forth my messenger, and he shall survey the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come into his temple, even the angel of the covenant, whom ye take pleasure in: behold, he is coming, saith the Lord Almighty.

    http://biblehub.com/sep/malachi/3.htm

    Matthew 11:10b duplicates Exodus 23:20a word for word as if copied straight from the Septuagint. And "THEE-THINE-YOU-YOUR" [σου] and "ME-MY-MINE" [μου] are not the same in any language. Yeshua therefore emphatically states from the Torah that Yochanan the Immerser is not only Eliyahu-Elijah but likewise the Malak-Angel-Messenger of Exodus 23:20-23. Likewise Matthew is not the only place where we find this quote from Exodus but again it appears in both Mark 1:2 and Luke 7:27. Mark reveals even more detail as the author places this quote from Exodus 23:20 together with the quote from Isaiah 40:3. This reveals that when Yeshayah-Isaiah speaks of "the voice of a Cryer in the wilderness" the Prophet is speaking of the Malak of Exodus 23:20 and, therefore, the same is Yochanan the Immerser according to the doctrine of Yeshua:

    Mark 1:2-3
    2. As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee [Exodus 23:20].
    3. The voice of a Cryer in the wilderness, Prepare you the way of YHWH, make His paths straight [Isaiah 40:3].


    If these things be true, and they are, then how can these things be properly understood? Can it be that Yochanan pre-existed his physical incarnation? Obviously not according to fundamental Christian doctrine. What it means then is that one must be fully willing to believe all that Yeshua teaches and this includes another emphatic statement from the same Matthew passage quoted at the top where Yeshua says that all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yochanan:

    Matthew 11:13
    13. For all the Prophets and
    the Torah prophesied until Yochanan.

    Unless you can prove it wrong what does this mean to YOUR doctrine?

    If true, and I think it might be, it shows that God used his his heavenly spiritual beings in more than one way. Now you have my mind working overtime to unravel this.

    Thanks. I just ordered a new Arabic translation of the NT. Have you heard anything about it? Are you using it?
    Psalm 1[/COLOR] and Job 28:28

    Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

    Comment


    • #3
      Also at the following links are some of the most prominent and well known commentaries offered for Matthew 11:10 and its companion passages. As one may clearly see not one of them even mentions Exodus 23:20 while several of them even go so far as to assert that this statement does not come from the Septuagint. And although they appear to be speaking of the Septuagint version of Malachi 3:1 still yet one would think that such a blatant error would not have escaped at least one of the major commentaries.

      Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
      (10) This is he, of whom it is written.The words in the Greek are not taken from the LXX. version of Malachi 3:1, but are a free translation from the Hebrew. In the original it is Jehovah Himself who speaks of His own coming: “Behold, I will send My messenger, and he shall prepare the way before Me.” In the Evangelist’s paraphrase it is Jehovah who speaks to the Christ—“shall prepare Thy way before Thee.”
      http://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/11-10.htm
      Meyer's NT Commentary
      Matthew 11:10 is not an interpolation by the evangelist (Weizsäcker); on the contrary, it forms the connecting link between Matthew 11:9; Matthew 11:11. The passage is Malachi 3:1, and is a free rendering of the Hebrew and not from the LXX.
      http://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/11-10.htm
      Expositor's Greek Testament
      Matthew 11:10. οὑτος … γέγραπται. The περισσότερον verified and explained by a prophetic citation. The oracle is taken from Malachi 3, altered so as to make the Messianic reference apparent—μου changed into σου.
      http://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/11-10.htm
      Pulpit Commentary
      Verse 10. - For. Omitted in the Revised Version. It is here an explanatory gloss, though genuine in Matthew 3:3. This is he, of whom it is written. Our Lord justifies his assertion of John's unique position. Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Malachi 3:1, not from the LXX., but freely from the Hebrew, which runs, "Behold, I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me."

      Observe in Matthew
      (1) "thy way"
      (2) "before thee," instead of "before me;"
      http://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/11-10.htm
      Several more commentaries are supplied at the same link, including Matthew Henry's and Gill's, but as plainly shown above they seem to note the problem with the different reading between "ME" and "YOU" however not one of them seems to be able to SEE that what is written in Exodus 23:20 is IDENTICAL to the passage they are fumbling over. One even goes so far as to state that the text was altered and changed by the author to make it suit his needs!

      Last edited by daqq; July 18th, 2015, 05:33 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by keypurr View Post
        If true, and I think it might be, it shows that God used his his heavenly spiritual beings in more than one way. Now you have my mind working overtime to unravel this.
        I reckon ole Malachi was speakin' of the Holy Spirit after Christ's ascension.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by daqq View Post
          Matthew 11:7-15
          7. Moreover, as they went their way, Yeshua commenced saying to the multitudes concerning Yochanan: What did you go out into the wilderness to look at? A reed shaken with the wind?
          8. But having gone out what did you see? A man clothed in malakos raiment? Behold, they that wear malakos raiment are in the houses of kings.
          9. But having gone out what did you see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, even much surpassing a prophet:
          10. He it is concerning whom it is written, "Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee."
          11. Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there has not arisen a greater than Yochanan the Immerser: yet he that is but little in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he.
          12. Moreover, from the days of Yochanan the Immerser until now, the kingdom of the heavens suffers violence and the violent seize it by force:
          13. For all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yochanan.
          14. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Eliyahu, that is about to come.
          15. He that has ears, let him hear!


          In the passage above, from Matthew 11:10, we find the following Scripture quote and statement in which the Master Teacher Yeshua, in quoting from the Scripture, emphatically states that the Scripture which he quotes concerns Yochanan the Immerser:

          Matthew 11:10
          10. He it is concerning whom it is written, "Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee."


          Where is this statement written in the Scripture? It is only found in one place and that is not Malachi 3:1, as the scholars and their commentaries all appear to assume, but rather the statement is a direct quote from the LXX-Septuagint version of Exodus 23:20a. The Scripture quote from Matthew 11:10b is copied straight from the Septuagint, verbatim, word for word from the Greek:

          Matthew 11:10 W/H 1881
          οὗτός ἐστιν περὶ οὗ γέγραπται Ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου, ὃς κατασκευάσει τὴν ὁδόν σου ἔμπροσθέν σου.

          http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/11-10.htm

          Exodus 23:20 LXX-Septuagint
          Καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου, ἵνα φυλάξῃ σε ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ, ὅπως εἰσαγάγῃ σε εἰς τὴν γῆν, ἣν ἡτοίμασά σοι.
          http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint
          /chapter.asp?book=2&page=23

          The statement from Malachi 3:1a-b is not even close:

          Malachi 3:1 LXX-Septuagint
          ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου, καὶ ἐξαίφνης ἥξει εἰς τὸν ναὸν ἑαυτοῦ Κύριος, ὃν ὑμεῖς ζητεῖτε, καὶ ὁ ἄγγελος τῆς διαθήκης, ὃν ὑμεῖς θέλετε· ἰδοὺ ἔρχεται, λέγει Κύριος παντοκράτωρ.

          http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek...book=42&page=3

          Without Καὶ (And) Exodus 23:20a is identical to Matthew 11:10b:

          Exodus 23:20a LXX-Septuagint
          ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου,

          Matthew 11:10b
          Ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου,


          The statement from Malachi 3:1a-b is not the same:

          Malachi 3:1a-b LXX-Septuagint
          ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου


          Here it is in KJV English:

          Matthew 11:10 KJV
          10. For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

          Exodus 23:20 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
          20 And, behold, I send my angel before thy face, that he may keep thee in the way, that he may bring thee into the land which I have prepared for thee.

          http://biblehub.com/sep/exodus/23.htm

          Malachi 3:1 KJV
          1. Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

          Malachi 3:1 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
          1. Behold, I send forth my messenger, and he shall survey the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come into his temple, even the angel of the covenant, whom ye take pleasure in: behold, he is coming, saith the Lord Almighty.

          http://biblehub.com/sep/malachi/3.htm

          Matthew 11:10b duplicates Exodus 23:20a word for word as if copied straight from the Septuagint. And "THEE-THINE-YOU-YOUR" [σου] and "ME-MY-MINE" [μου] are not the same in any language. Yeshua therefore emphatically states from the Torah that Yochanan the Immerser is not only Eliyahu-Elijah but likewise the Malak-Angel-Messenger of Exodus 23:20-23. Likewise Matthew is not the only place where we find this quote from Exodus but again it appears in both Mark 1:2 and Luke 7:27. Mark reveals even more detail as the author places this quote from Exodus 23:20 together with the quote from Isaiah 40:3. This reveals that when Yeshayah-Isaiah speaks of "the voice of a Cryer in the wilderness" the Prophet is speaking of the Malak of Exodus 23:20 and, therefore, the same is Yochanan the Immerser according to the doctrine of Yeshua:

          Mark 1:2-3
          2. As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee [Exodus 23:20].
          3. The voice of a Cryer in the wilderness, Prepare you the way of YHWH, make His paths straight [Isaiah 40:3].


          If these things be true, and they are, then how can these things be properly understood? Can it be that Yochanan pre-existed his physical incarnation? Obviously not according to fundamental Christian doctrine. What it means then is that one must be fully willing to believe all that Yeshua teaches and this includes another emphatic statement from the same Matthew passage quoted at the top where Yeshua says that all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yochanan:

          Matthew 11:13
          13. For all the Prophets and
          the Torah prophesied until Yochanan.

          Unless you can prove it wrong what does this mean to YOUR doctrine?

          John the Baptist had the holy spirit in him.

          Luke 1:15 "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.

          Matthew 12:32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by achduke View Post
            John the Baptist had the holy spirit in him.

            Luk 1:15 "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.
            As much as a man could have at that time.

            Only God's son was given the Spirit without measure.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by keypurr View Post
              If true, and I think it might be, it shows that God used his his heavenly spiritual beings in more than one way. Now you have my mind working overtime to unravel this.

              Thanks. I just ordered a new Arabic translation of the NT. Have you heard anything about it? Are you using it?
              Hi Keypurr,

              The truth is in the statement that the Torah prophesied until John but mainstream Christianity will probably never admit that because to most the Law is "done away with" or abolished. How then can one still say the same if the Torah was not even fully implemented and enforce until Golgotha? It truly is mercy and grace because it actually lets those of old time off the hook for not understanding Torah before Messiah had come. Nobody could have understood it before that time. It is all expounded in the Testimony of Yeshua. If Messiah had not come we would still not understand it to this day, (for the Torah is spiritual). As for an Arabic translation do you mean Aramaic? If so, be careful friend, Matthew is the only account we know that was originally written in Hebrew-Aramaic. However, no, I have not read an Aramaic translation, (neither do I read Aramaic) but have perused some portions of translations from Aramaic which I did not care for any more than the Textus Receptus, (which is the Greek that the KJV and YLT are rendered from). There are also ongoing projects in Aramaic Bibles so I am not really sure what you mean.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 1Mind1Spirit View Post
                As much as a man could have at that time.

                Only God's son was given the Spirit without measure.
                Rev 5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

                Comment


                • #9
                  You all have fun with this thread:
                  I'm gonna let it ride . . .

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by daqq View Post
                    Matthew 11:7-15
                    7. Moreover, as they went their way, Yeshua commenced saying to the multitudes concerning Yochanan: What did you go out into the wilderness to look at? A reed shaken with the wind?
                    8. But having gone out what did you see? A man clothed in malakos raiment? Behold, they that wear malakos raiment are in the houses of kings.
                    9. But having gone out what did you see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, even much surpassing a prophet:
                    10. He it is concerning whom it is written, "Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee."
                    11. Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there has not arisen a greater than Yochanan the Immerser: yet he that is but little in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he.
                    12. Moreover, from the days of Yochanan the Immerser until now, the kingdom of the heavens suffers violence and the violent seize it by force:
                    13. For all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yochanan.
                    14. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Eliyahu, that is about to come.
                    15. He that has ears, let him hear!


                    In the passage above, from Matthew 11:10, we find the following Scripture quote and statement in which the Master Teacher Yeshua, in quoting from the Scripture, emphatically states that the Scripture which he quotes concerns Yochanan the Immerser:

                    Matthew 11:10
                    10. He it is concerning whom it is written, "Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee."


                    Where is this statement written in the Scripture? It is only found in one place and that is not Malachi 3:1, as the scholars and their commentaries all appear to assume, but rather the statement is a direct quote from the LXX-Septuagint version of Exodus 23:20a. The Scripture quote from Matthew 11:10b is copied straight from the Septuagint, verbatim, word for word from the Greek:

                    Matthew 11:10 W/H 1881
                    οὗτός ἐστιν περὶ οὗ γέγραπται Ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου, ὃς κατασκευάσει τὴν ὁδόν σου ἔμπροσθέν σου.

                    http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/11-10.htm

                    Exodus 23:20 LXX-Septuagint
                    Καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου, ἵνα φυλάξῃ σε ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ, ὅπως εἰσαγάγῃ σε εἰς τὴν γῆν, ἣν ἡτοίμασά σοι.
                    http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint
                    /chapter.asp?book=2&page=23

                    The statement from Malachi 3:1a-b is not even close:

                    Malachi 3:1 LXX-Septuagint
                    ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου, καὶ ἐξαίφνης ἥξει εἰς τὸν ναὸν ἑαυτοῦ Κύριος, ὃν ὑμεῖς ζητεῖτε, καὶ ὁ ἄγγελος τῆς διαθήκης, ὃν ὑμεῖς θέλετε· ἰδοὺ ἔρχεται, λέγει Κύριος παντοκράτωρ.

                    http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek...book=42&page=3

                    Without Καὶ (And) Exodus 23:20a is identical to Matthew 11:10b:

                    Exodus 23:20a LXX-Septuagint
                    ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου,

                    Matthew 11:10b
                    Ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου,


                    The statement from Malachi 3:1a-b is not the same:

                    Malachi 3:1a-b LXX-Septuagint
                    ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου


                    Here it is in KJV English:

                    Matthew 11:10 KJV
                    10. For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

                    Exodus 23:20 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
                    20 And, behold, I send my angel before thy face, that he may keep thee in the way, that he may bring thee into the land which I have prepared for thee.

                    http://biblehub.com/sep/exodus/23.htm

                    Malachi 3:1 KJV
                    1. Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

                    Malachi 3:1 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
                    1. Behold, I send forth my messenger, and he shall survey the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come into his temple, even the angel of the covenant, whom ye take pleasure in: behold, he is coming, saith the Lord Almighty.

                    http://biblehub.com/sep/malachi/3.htm

                    Matthew 11:10b duplicates Exodus 23:20a word for word as if copied straight from the Septuagint. And "THEE-THINE-YOU-YOUR" [σου] and "ME-MY-MINE" [μου] are not the same in any language. Yeshua therefore emphatically states from the Torah that Yochanan the Immerser is not only Eliyahu-Elijah but likewise the Malak-Angel-Messenger of Exodus 23:20-23. Likewise Matthew is not the only place where we find this quote from Exodus but again it appears in both Mark 1:2 and Luke 7:27. Mark reveals even more detail as the author places this quote from Exodus 23:20 together with the quote from Isaiah 40:3. This reveals that when Yeshayah-Isaiah speaks of "the voice of a Cryer in the wilderness" the Prophet is speaking of the Malak of Exodus 23:20 and, therefore, the same is Yochanan the Immerser according to the doctrine of Yeshua:

                    Mark 1:2-3
                    2. As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee [Exodus 23:20].
                    3. The voice of a Cryer in the wilderness, Prepare you the way of YHWH, make His paths straight [Isaiah 40:3].


                    If these things be true, and they are, then how can these things be properly understood? Can it be that Yochanan pre-existed his physical incarnation? Obviously not according to fundamental Christian doctrine. What it means then is that one must be fully willing to believe all that Yeshua teaches and this includes another emphatic statement from the same Matthew passage quoted at the top where Yeshua says that all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yochanan:

                    Matthew 11:13
                    13. For all the Prophets and
                    the Torah prophesied until Yochanan.

                    Unless you can prove it wrong what does this mean to YOUR doctrine?

                    what is your point?

                    thank you.
                    If you want to be true to God and Jesus, abandon any kind of violence at all cost. By advocating any kind of violence, you are misrepresenting Christianity.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by achduke View Post
                      Rev 5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.




                      John 13:3 KJV


                      3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;





                      John 16


                      14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

                      15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I , that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

                      16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

                      25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh , when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.


                      Now read Malachi and understand the Revelation verse.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by daqq View Post
                        Hi Keypurr,

                        The truth is in the statement that the Torah prophesied until John but mainstream Christianity will probably never admit that because to most the Law is "done away with" or abolished. How then can one still say the same if the Torah was not even fully implemented and enforce until Golgotha? It truly is mercy and grace because it actually lets those of old time off the hook for not understanding Torah before Messiah had come. Nobody could have understood it before that time. It is all expounded in the Testimony of Yeshua. If Messiah had not come we would still not understand it to this day, (for the Torah is spiritual).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by achduke View Post
                          Rev 5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
                          God's seven spirits?


                          2 Peter 1:5 KJV


                          5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

                          6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

                          7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 1Mind1Spirit View Post
                            John 13:3 KJV


                            3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;





                            John 16


                            14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

                            15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I , that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

                            16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

                            25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh , when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.


                            Now read Malachi and understand the Revelation verse.
                            Now you made me reread Malachi.

                            Mal 2:5 "My covenant was with him, one of life and peace, and I gave them to him that he might fear Me; so he feared Me and was reverent before My name.

                            Mal 2:6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and injustice was not found on his lips. He walked with Me in peace and equity, and turned many away from iniquity.

                            Mal 2:7 "For the lips of a priest should keep knowledge, and people should seek the law from his mouth; for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

                            Zec 3:7 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'If you will walk in My ways, and if you will keep My command, then you shall also judge My house, and likewise have charge of My courts; I will give you places to walk among these who stand here.

                            Zec 3:9 For behold, the stone that I have laid before Joshua: upon the stone are seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave its inscription,' says the LORD of hosts, 'And I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

                            Zec 4:2 And he said to me, "What do you see?" So I said, "I am looking, and there is a lampstand of solid gold with a bowl on top of it, and on the stand seven lamps with seven pipes to the seven lamps.

                            Zec 4:6 So he answered and said to me: "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts.

                            Zec 4:10 For who has despised the day of small things? for these seven rejoice to see the plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. They are the eyes of the LORD, which scan to and fro throughout the whole earth."

                            Isa 11:1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots.

                            Isa 11:2 The Spirit of the LORD(1) shall rest upon Him, the Spirit of wisdom(2) and understanding(3), the Spirit of counsel(4) and might(5), the Spirit of knowledge(6) and of the fear(7) of the LORD.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Satan's seven emulations?

                              16 These six things doth the LORD hate : yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

                              17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,


                              18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

                              19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

                              Comment

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