Arthur Brain
Well-known member
What you describe hell as most certainly is torture. If "hell" is a state of perpetual, inescapable loneliness with no relief and distraction then it's exactly that.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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What you describe hell as most certainly is torture. If "hell" is a state of perpetual, inescapable loneliness with no relief and distraction then it's exactly that.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
I reject it because it's a doctrine that limits God and one that even those who ascribe to can't even agree on as outlined prior.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
And that’s the problem, those first 4 words in your post: “I cannot conceive of...”.
You don’t understand God or love or judgment or suffering or anything else. You’re an antichrist cultist.
You make bare assertions that are not representative of God or of scripture. You obviously reject the Revelation at the very least. God’s punishments are NOT remedial, merely taking place within the span of the ages. And you don’t know the difference between eternity and aeviternity.
You don’t get to superimpose your social justice and social gospel upon God and His scriptures. You think this cosmos in its current form is somehow determinate of reality.
Your false interpretaton of ta panta means you don’t comprehend that “the all” in this life doesn’t include those with no authentic hypostatic reality of existence. Since you don’t understand Greek anarthrous nouns, you also can’t understand the Greek article, either.
“Ta panta” is quite a particular “all”. Anarthrous nouns are the broad reference to qualitative characteristics and functional activities. The Greek article is quite particular. It’s a specific all, not a general all.
This is why grammar is so important. People like you are running around with this modern innovation that somehow the ancient Greek speakers had no idea what “the all” meant or that they always knew it was “the all” in this ridiculous modern false context.
“The all” is selective of a particular “all” that is distinct from the general “everyone all”. It’s NOT the “everyone all”.
You have no idea how stupid the “ta panta” movement is.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
These quotes and this bastardization of scripture usage do NOT make your case. They only demonstrate that you have imbibed a false dialectic and cannot be extracted from it.
Universalism has never been the Gospel. It has undermined the Gospel.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
I understand what you're saying and agree with it, but i struggle with my reaction to it, as I have faith that Christ will gather in all of His lost sheep
the wolves preaching a false gospel will reach none of the flock with their lies
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
in what way does it limit God?
do you know of a doctrine that doesn't have disagreement among it's adherents?
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
my goodness
didn't you wake up cranky :chuckle:
you sound exactly like the mirror opposite of a chick tract, artie, hopping around channeling your inner emo :chuckle:
it's been quite amusing to observe
Dear P.P.S.The good news of our Glorious Father cannot be undermined. It rings loud and clear, and no devil from any dimension of darkness can undermine it!
"For just as through the disobedience of the one man the polus were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one Man the polus will be made righteous."
The whole of created life shall be delivered/ set free from the bondage of corruption...
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
I’m certainly not saying that Universalism is the only false gospel. There are, of course, many.
By these three prepositions Paul ascribes the universe (ta panta) with all the phenomena concerning creation, redemption, providence to God as the…
Ex= The Source
Di= The Agent
Eiv= The Goal
The Koine, ta pavnte, is the strongest word for all in the Scriptures; it literally means the all.
ta pavnte/ ta panta, in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the all things, the universe, and, everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.”
**It is not in the limited sense of “nearly all”, “pavnte” minus “ta”
The final preposition [eiv) reveals the ultimate goal of all that is. What has been provided in Christ is a re-turn, a re-storation, a re-newing, a re-demption, a re-concilation, a re-surrection, a re-stitution.
The prefix “re” means back again, again, anew–and all the words with this prefix speak of something that left its place and has now made its circuit and come back to the point of its beginning.
"In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him." -C.S. Lewis
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
No. The whole of creation is only that which is reconciled to Christ in this physical life. All the rest are false hypostases.
Your false doctrine is not Christian. Your false gospel saves no one.
Your false gospel emphasizes the current heaven and earth and all those who are compatible with only it. The authentic Gospel is regarding the new heavens and the new earth, and those among the former who have been made compatible with the new creation by being in Christ.
There is a functionality for salvation. It must happen the way the authentic Gospel indicates or it cannot happen. You know nothing of this, substituting false doctrine that is anthropological, not cosmological. Salvation is for the entire inhabited cosmos, and the inhabitants of the new creation must be compatible with it ontologically.
You’re not. Those who imbibe a Universalist false gospel are not.
Jonathan Mitchell (Author of Jonathan Mitchell N.T.)=
John introduces this quote without any introduction, except perhaps as an allusion to Isa. 41:4; 44:6 and 48:12, where the clauses are, “I am the First and the Last.”
We find the A and the W again in 21:6, with allusions to “First and Last” in the formulation, “I am the Alpha and the Omega: The Beginning (Origin; Source; Headship; First Principle) and The End (The Goal; Consummation; The Finished Product; The Destiny; The Purpose),” and this is repeated in 22:13. The “first and last” placement of these declarations virtually “bookend” the entire Apocalypse.
When the Lord speaks of Himself in a certain way, and then says it three times in a single message (an Unveiling), we should pause and give this expression focused thought.
We suggest that Paul articulated the same idea in Rom. 11:36a-
"Because, forth from out of the midst of Him, then through the midst of Him (or: through means of Him), and [finally] into the midst of Him, [is; will be] the whole (everything; [are] all things; or: Because He is the source, means and goal/destiny of all things – everything leads into Him)!"
“The Alpha and the Omega” is an example of a traditional rhetorical technique where “polar opposites” are stated “in order to highlight everything between the opposites”
John introduces this quote without any introduction, except perhaps as an allusion to Isa. 41:4; 44:6 and 48:12, where the clauses are, “I am the First and the Last.”
We find the A and the W again in 21:6, with allusions to “First and Last” in the formulation, “I am the Alpha and the Omega: The Beginning (Origin; Source; Headship; First Principle) and The End (The Goal; Consummation; The Finished Product; The Destiny; The Purpose),” and this is repeated in 22:13. The “first and last” placement of these declarations virtually “bookend” the entire Apocalypse.
When the Lord speaks of Himself in a certain way, and then says it three times in a single message (an Unveiling), we should pause and give this expression focused thought.
We suggest that Paul articulated the same idea in Rom. 11:36a-
"Because, forth from out of the midst of Him, then through the midst of Him (or: through means of Him), and [finally] into the midst of Him, [is; will be] the whole (everything; [are] all things; or: Because He is the source, means and goal/destiny of all things – everything leads into Him)!"
“The Alpha and the Omega” is an example of a traditional rhetorical technique where “polar opposites” are stated “in order to highlight everything between the opposites”
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
they want separation from God, separation from everything
and that's just what they'll get
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Why do you attempt to masquerade as a linguist and/or scholar of the text? This fecal material is ridiculous.
You willfuly mistake the cosmological statements of scripture for anthropological statements. “The all” is a particular all. The Greek article is NOT the anarthrous.
But you’re never going to be corrected by truth. That’s how delusion works. Sigh.
(And you do realize a Universalist gospel would never have to be preached or taught. Faith is irrelevant. Grace is irrelevant. It’s all just some ultimate guaranteed eventuality for everyone. Yours is a Christless gospel.)
If you knew what an hypostasis was, you’d recant and repent of your cultish and antichrist error.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Out of curiosity...
Who taught you this garbage?!
“The all” is similar to saying “the poor” or other such expressions. “The all” is like saying “the elect”, “the redeemed”.
The Greek article particularizes, it doesn’t generalize. It’s Greek’s way of being able to inclusively refer to “all Believers”. The redeemed are “the all”. The unredeemed are NOT “the all”.
"In order that in the Name of JESUS every knee should bow, of beings in Heaven, of those on the earth, and of those in the underworld..."
That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow (ina en twi onomati Ihsou pan gonu kampsh). First aorist active subjunctive of kamptw, old verb, to bend, to bow, in purpose clause with ina. Not perfunctory genuflections whenever the name of Jesus is mentioned, but universal acknowledgment of the majesty and power of Jesus who carries his human name and nature to heaven. This universal homage to Jesus is seen in Romans 8:22 ; Ephesians 1:20-22 and in particular Revelation 5:13 . Under the earth (katacqoniwn). Homeric adjective for departed souls, subterranean, simply the dead. -A.T. Robertson Word Pictures-
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
You just sound exactly like that which you are. An obessive troll with psychopathic traits and not a very bright one at that.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
:kookoo:
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Everyone bowing has nothing to do with everyone having salvation.
“Of beings in heaven...” is a subphrase in this passage. Now you’re insisting the host of hell and the serpent himself are universally saved. And animals and insects are all beings on some level, so now you’re initimating that every being has salvation.
You also don’t know what the name of Jesus is and means. It’s not the incantation of syllables in human language.
Absolute delusion. And you have the nerve to attempt to use scripture for your antichrist heresy of demeaning the finished work of the Lord for those He has redeemed.