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Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

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  • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post

    There is no talking to you people, so goodbye. Bunch of brainwashed robots.

    Hmmm......I thought there was talking to people.
    Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Doormat View Post
      Do you think you might find the answer to that question in scripture?
      "Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. For such men are slaves not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting."

      Yeshua said, “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” I will stick with what Yeshua said.
      I AM the pie lady!!

      sigpic

      Comment


      • Originally posted by steko View Post
        Hmmm......I thought there was talking to people.

        Tough crowd!
        I AM the pie lady!!

        sigpic

        Comment


        • Originally posted by freelight View Post
          My previous arguments and points on the problems of the concept of 'ECT' still holds and shows such to be 'problematic' on many levels, let alone violating the principles of justice, mercy, fairness, reason and the mediation of divine love and wisdom. Ignoring these glaring contradictions of God's character and actions for the belief of ECT is untenble. ECT fails....let alone if anyone can actually prove what is 'biblical' about it, since everyone has their own 'interpretation' of various passages.

          ALL your arguments are NOT based on the Bible or God being the ultimate arbitrator of love and justice. It is based on your own concept of these laws, and what YOU accept. YOU are NOT the final arbitrator. God IS.



          Originally posted by freelight View Post
          Your assumption above does nothing to prove the concept of ECT, as your 'belief' about my knowedge of 'God' is a misinformed opinion. Those who have the courage of intellectual honesty and the value of reason, would not accept that 'God' would forever withhold his love, mercy and salvation from his offspring, committing them to an eternity of torment to no end or resolve. Only an insane and unjust 'god', worse than the devil...would manage such a system.

          It is based on what you have attested to on this thread and the fact that you admit you are NOT a Christian. That you think your intellect is greater than God or His Word shows your true nature. That you actually would condemn God who is the reason you exist.



          Originally posted by freelight View Post
          Remember,....what is Love' eternal will? Does Love inflict pain, torment, suffering, punishment TO NO END? The Father's love is eternal, and consequences of transgressing natural and spiritual laws produces its own suffering, whereby souls reap what they sow. The law itself acts this way, for breaking such or obeying such produces its own results. Punishment and consequences are corrective or disciplinary in nature, which work to enlighten and encourage the sinner towards the right path, for Love ever calls souls back home. Chastisements then are ultimately for one's own good....and the universe that is held together by God works towards the ultimate reconciliation and reunion of all sentient beings with God, for such a movement is by the very will and power of God.
          Consider the infinity of God's love.

          God is love. God is justice. God is EVERYTHING. That you use words like pain and suffering as synonyms for torment shows your own lack of understanding. Torment in the Biblical sense is self inflicted due to people NOT obeying God and finding out the truth afterwards. We ALL reap what WE sow. God makes the rules and we obey or break them. Sounds like you grew up without realizing any repercussions to your actions.
          You only look at God as one attribute that is subject to your acceptance of what that attribute should be. God is more than you understand now or could possibly ever understand. His justice and rule of His laws are all of equal importance. If Jesus said unbelievers will suffer eternal punishment, then they will. Your acceptance nor belief changes NOTHING.


          But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect. 1 Peter 3:15 (NIV)
          Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)
          For this very reason, make every effort by your faith to produce virtue, by virtue knowledge, 6 by knowledge self-control, by self-control steadfastness, by steadfastness godliness, 7 by godliness brotherly affection, and by brotherly affection love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will make you effective and productive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-8 (NIV)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Doormat View Post
            How was your body dead?

            Define death that is the wages of sin.


            Effectually. ( I suggest you look up the meaning of the word )

            The lack of animation in the body. ( no more life )


            But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect. 1 Peter 3:15 (NIV)
            Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)
            For this very reason, make every effort by your faith to produce virtue, by virtue knowledge, 6 by knowledge self-control, by self-control steadfastness, by steadfastness godliness, 7 by godliness brotherly affection, and by brotherly affection love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will make you effective and productive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-8 (NIV)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by keypurr View Post
              Nope, your wrong. He's right. Death is death, not an eternal fire with everyone in pain. If that is your god then I do not wish to be with him. My God is loving and just.
              "And the LORD said to him, 'Go through the city, through Jerusalem, and put a mark upon the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations that are committed in it.' And to the others he said in my hearing, 'Pass through the city after him, and smite; your eye shall not spare, and you shall show no pity; slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women, but touch no one upon whom is the mark. And begin at my sanctuary.' So they began with the elders who were before the house. Then he said to them, 'Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain. Go forth.' So they went forth, and smote in the city. And while they were smiting, and I was left alone, I fell upon my face, and cried, 'Ah Lord GOD! Wilt thou destroy all that remains of Israel in the outpouring of thy wrath upon Jerusalem?' "Then he (God) said to me, 'The guilt of the house of Israel and Judah is exceedingly great; the land is full of blood, and the city full of injustice; for they say, 'The LORD has forsaken the land, and the LORD does not see' As for me, my eye will not spare, nor will I have pity, but I will requite their deeds upon their heads.' "

              Our God is also a God of wrath. I don't think we should forget that.
              I AM the pie lady!!

              sigpic

              Comment


              • Originally posted by IMJerusha View Post
                I don't think I am mistaken. We do not live in a Theocracy.
                Irrelevant to my point, but see Romans 13:1-6 to learn that you are mistaken again (assuming you believe Ro 13:1-6 is truth).

                Originally posted by IMJerusha View Post
                The laws man judges man by are modeled after God's Law but they are not God's Laws.
                Then answer Timotheos' question using God's law. Moses wasn't sure what to do with the man who was gathering wood on the sabbath. God said to stone the man to death. Was that punishment? Of course it was. So Timotheos' point is made.

                Originally posted by IMJerusha View Post
                Man makes excuses for man (1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, manslaughter, etc.) and God accepts no excuses.
                You are mistaken. Consider reviewing the story of Lamech and the Mosaic law regarding justifiable homicide, cities of refuge, etc.

                Originally posted by IMJerusha View Post
                I don't think I am mistaken.
                See cognitive dissonance.

                Originally posted by IMJerusha View Post
                Matthew 25:46 (Yeshua said,) “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
                So? How does that mean He is judging them when He stated that He did not come to judge them, and when He explained exactly what would judge them in the end? And why do you ignore that the Saints will judge the world?

                Originally posted by IMJerusha View Post
                Hebrews 10:26-31 - "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
                Annihilation. How do you interpret that to mean ECT? Some here have already boxed themselves into a corner by denying it's literal fire.

                Originally posted by IMJerusha View Post
                For we know him who said, 'It is mine to avenge; I will repay,' and again, 'The Lord will judge his people.' It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
                Assuming you believe Jesus is Lord, consider what He said and reconcile it with what the author of Hebrews wrote, else you have a paradox or contradiction in scripture.

                John 12:47-48 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
                So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by StanJ53 View Post
                  If you continue to use eisegesis, when you read scripture and fail to see that DEATH ONLY relates to the BODY, you will have this same type of confusion ALL the time.
                  Originally posted by Doormat View Post
                  Were you ever dead in your sins?
                  Originally posted by StanJ53 View Post
                  Yes, effectually.
                  Originally posted by Doormat View Post
                  Was your heart still beating when you were dead in your sins?
                  Originally posted by StanJ53 View Post
                  Yes it was.
                  Originally posted by Doormat View Post
                  How was your body dead?
                  Originally posted by StanJ53 View Post
                  Effectually. ( I suggest you look up the meaning of the word )
                  Effectually means in an effectual manner. Effectual means producing or able to produce a desired effect. Therefore you are merely stating that your body was dead without explaining how it was dead. Your heart was beating; there was life in your blood. Explain how you were dead?

                  Originally posted by Doormat View Post
                  Define death that is the wages of sin.
                  Originally posted by StanJ53 View Post
                  The lack of animation in the body. ( no more life )
                  When you were dead in your sins, was that the wages of sin? Yes or no. If yes, your position is illogical because your heart was beating (animation). If no, your position contradicts numerous scriptures.
                  So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Doormat View Post
                    Explain what you believe death is. How many deaths are there? Describe them.
                    I have already done this over and over.

                    Death is separation, not cessation (principle is established by looking at all concepts relating to death).

                    Physical death is separation of spirit-soul (real person) from body. The body without the spirit is a dead, empty shell/lifeless. The spirit-soul without the body is very much alive, conscious, continuing after physical death until the future resurrection where the person is whole again as spirit, soul, body.

                    Spiritual death is relational separation of holy God from sinful man. The person in rebellion and sin is separated from intimacy/fellowship with God and stands condemned with a broken relationship.

                    Eternal death/second death is separation of the sinful person from a holy God forever, not in heaven, but in hell/lake of fire. They are alive as to awareness, but dead as to separation from fellowship with God.
                    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Doormat View Post
                      How was your body dead?

                      Define death that is the wages of sin.
                      When Adam sinned, spiritual death happened immediately. Physical death was a later consequence of sin.

                      For those who persist in sin and reject God's grace, eternal death/separation will be their destiny, not cessation.
                      Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                      They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                      I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                      Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                      "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                      The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by freelight View Post
                        My previous arguments and points on the problems of the concept of 'ECT' still holds and shows such to be 'problematic' on many levels, let alone violating the principles of justice, mercy, fairness, reason and the mediation of divine love and wisdom. Ignoring these glaring contradictions of God's character and actions for the belief in ECT is untenble. ECT fails....let alone if anyone can actually prove what is 'biblical' about it, since everyone has their own 'interpretation' of various passages.

                        Your assumption above does nothing to prove the concept of ECT, as your 'belief' about my knowedge of 'God' is a misinformed opinion. Those who have the courage of intellectual honesty and the value of reason, would not accept that 'God' would forever withhold his love, mercy and salvation from his offspring, committing them to an eternity of torment to no end or resolve. Only an insane and unjust 'god', worse than the devil...would manage such a system.

                        Remember,....what is Love' eternal will? Does Love inflict pain, torment, suffering, punishment TO NO END? The Father's love is eternal, and consequences of transgressing natural and spiritual laws produces its own suffering, whereby souls reap what they sow. The law itself acts this way, for breaking such or obeying such produces its own results. Punishment and consequences are corrective or disciplinary in nature, which work to enlighten and encourage the sinner towards the right path, for Love ever calls souls back home. Chastisements then are ultimately for one's own good....and the universe that is held together by God works towards the ultimate reconciliation and reunion of all sentient beings with God, for such a movement is by the very will and power of God.

                        Consider the infinity of God's love.




                        pj
                        The master plays with the grasshoppers, many blessings freelight, Zeke.
                        Trying to awaken the divine principle in the belly of the fish.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Doormat View Post
                          And why do you ignore that the Saints will judge the world?
                          I have answered everything else but this as far as I'm concerned. I'm sure that I haven't by your standards but the way I see it, Yeshua is the last word for me.

                          What is meant by "the saints will judge the world", IMHO,is this:
                          “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you."
                          I AM the pie lady!!

                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                            Death is separation, not cessation (principle is established by looking at all concepts relating to death).
                            After Adam sinned God clothed him. You're claiming that is separation from God, a type of the second death, which according to you is essentially the same thing (separation) for eternity?

                            Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                            Physical death is separation of spirit-soul (real person) from body.
                            Then it's just called "death" but isn't really death (Mt 9:24).

                            Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                            Spiritual death is relational separation of holy God from sinful man. The person in rebellion and sin is separated from intimacy/fellowship with God and stands condemned with a broken relationship.

                            Eternal death/second death is separation of the sinful person from a holy God forever, not in heaven, but in hell/lake of fire. They are alive as to awareness, but dead as to separation from fellowship with God.
                            That's the same death, not two different deaths.

                            Do you agree that there is only one death per Hebrews 9:27?

                            Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
                            So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Doormat View Post
                              After Adam sinned God clothed him. You're claiming that is separation from God, a type of the second death, which according to you is essentially the same thing (separation) for eternity?



                              Then it's just called "death" but isn't really death (Mt 9:24).



                              That's the same death, not two different deaths.

                              Do you agree that there is only one death per Hebrews 9:27?

                              Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
                              Adam died spiritually and God gave him provision so he would not die eternally. He still died physically (and so did sinless Jesus and redeemed saints).

                              Heb. talks about physical death sealing our destiny with judgment to follow. All truth is not in one verse.

                              The Bible talks about physical, spiritual, eternal death. Few dispute this.

                              Sleep is a metaphor for physical death because the body looks like it is sleeping (yet the brain is still active when one sleeps, so you can make metaphors go both ways). Soul sleep is a heretical teaching held by SDAs and JWs, not historical, biblical, orthodox Christianity. Those in hell are not sleeping even if their bodies are in a casket (the real person is spirit-soul with or without a body).
                              Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                              They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                              I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                              Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                              "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                              The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                                When Adam sinned, spiritual death happened immediately.
                                What exactly is spiritual death? Explain it.

                                Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                                Physical death was a later consequence of sin.
                                Physical "death" is not a consequence of sin. Babies "die" every day.

                                Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                                For those who persist in sin and reject God's grace, eternal death/separation will be their destiny, not cessation.
                                Eternal separation from omnipresent God is logically only possible through annihilation.
                                So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

                                Comment

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