Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

Timotheos

New member
Hardly. You're leaving out several key Scriptures, conveniently.
They will be given flesh and that flesh will be burned off of them and given back and burned off and given back... et cetera, ad infinitum. I know what The Bible says. I don't have any problems with The Bible. My problem is with people who ignore, cross out or use scissors on verses that they don't like. ECT is in Scripture. Annihilation isn't.

Excuse me, Just where does the bible say "They will be given flesh and that flesh will be burned off of them and given back and burned off and given back... et cetera, ad infinitum" I know what the Bible says and it doesn't say that! Does your religion add this to the Bible?

Eternal Destruction (Annihilation) IS in Scripture, ECT is not. Read 2 Thessalonians 1:9 and Jude 7.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
ECT demands it. The smoke of their torment contains the burned flesh. Their flesh will be replaced so that it can be burned off once more. Their worms will not die. The worm will eat them for eternity. They will suffer eternally. They will not simply vanish. This is obvious.
 

Timotheos

New member
You guys who believe in ECT, how are you reading this verse? How does it fit into your theology?
James 4:12a
εἷς ἐστιν νομοθέτης καὶ κριτὴς ὁ δυνάμενος σῶσαι καὶ ἀπολέσαι·
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy.

If nobody is really destroyed, aren't you simply denying scripture?
 

Timotheos

New member
ECT demands it. The smoke of their torment contains the burned flesh. Their flesh will be replaced so that it can be burned off once more. Their worms will not die. The worm will eat them for eternity. They will suffer eternally. They will not simply vanish. This is obvious.

It isn't what the Bible says. It is obviously NOT what the Bible says. Your reference to worms eating and fire burning comes from Isaiah 66, and clearly refers to what happens to dead bodies, not living people. They perish. I never said they simply vanish. They are consumed by the fire. Haven't you ever seen what fire does to whatever it consumes? Do you have a fireplace or have you ever had a campfire? Don't you have to keep putting wood into it to replace the wood that is consumed by the fire? The wood doesn't burn forever, never being consumed. This is the same thing that will happen to those who sin and do not repent. They will be consumed by the fire. They will not be given new bodies over and over. It's obvious that the bible does not say this. Aimiel, I am really worried about you.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
It isn't what the Bible says.
Actually, it is.
They perish.
Perishing is a matter of perspective. Very few things actually disappear when 'perishing' takes place. In a nuclear explosion, the fuel actually loses an electron and becomes a different element. In experiments where acceleration brings things into existence which didn't exist before, they also disintegrate almost as quickly as they appear. When things are destroyed, they actually only change state. From our perspective (temporal) those who die seem to be no more. The Bible says that being absent from the body is to be present with The Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Since God stands in eternity and we walk in time and space, those who die face Judgment Day the moment they die. Time only takes place in front of those who are subject to it. God is not subject to time, or time would be God, not The Lord.
I never said they simply vanish. They are consumed by the fire. Haven't you ever seen what fire does to whatever it consumes? Do you have a fireplace or have you ever had a campfire? Don't you have to keep putting wood into it to replace the wood that is consumed by the fire? The wood doesn't burn forever, never being consumed. This is the same thing that will happen to those who sin and do not repent. They will be consumed by the fire.
The smoke contains portions of the wood, as does the ash. Nothing has been taken out of existence. It has changed state, only. Some portions of the wood were turned into gasses and some were reduced to ash. Nothing has passed out of existence. The wood was made of chemicals, all of which still exist. The same is true for the bodies and souls of those who are sentenced to be tormented for ever and ever in the Lake of Fire: they will change state, for ever and ever.
They will not be given new bodies over and over. It's obvious that the bible does not say this.
Obviously you've never given much thought or meditation to Scripture.
Aimiel, I am really worried about you.
You should learn how to walk in faith, since your fear (worry is fear) has torment and Perfect Love casts out ALL fear. If you were to walk in love you would no longer fear anyone, except The Lord.
 

Coach203

New member
tomlapalm, you said:

It is not that torment is for all time, it is just that time doesn't exist. (the clock doesn't move)

Spiritual death is torment

I'm not sure you grasp that your time in eternity has already begun, and it's not going to be fun.

For those of you raised in church who think you love Jesus, just remember this: Judas was closer than you'll ever be, and he was better off non-existent.

That is, in fact, most of us as well. We pretend to love a phantom, but it is self-deception. We don't know Jesus, and He won't miss any of us when we slide into the pit on the broad path that drains off the human race like a watershed.

He died for us, but only to protect his reputation. When we make our exit with the Devil, Christ will be relieved. Those who have managed actual love of God can say nothing to any of us that can help. They are who they are, and we are hardened like Pharaoh.

Stop the games. Look at your lives and your failures. Loving God is beyond each of us as it was Judas, and I don't see any Apostle John's or Paul's around.

The phrase is "given over."

Why do you continue as though you are not booked already in hotel Beelzebub?

Now you pretend time is going to stand still. You wish.

Reality is darkness. And when you face God, you will beg for relief from His presence.
 

Timotheos

New member
Actually, it is.Perishing is a matter of perspective.
So, are you saying "Surely you will not die"? Hmmm, where did I hear that before? Genesis 3:4 Obviously you have not given much thought or meditation to Scripture. Do you know that the serpent in the garden said the same thing you are saying? I don't believe you any more than I believe that devil the serpent.

Very few things actually disappear when 'perishing' takes place. In a nuclear explosion, the fuel actually loses an electron and becomes a different element. In experiments where acceleration brings things into existence which didn't exist before, they also disintegrate almost as quickly as they appear. When things are destroyed, they actually only change state. From our perspective (temporal) those who die seem to be no more.
No, the Bible says specifically that they are no more. Obviously you have not given much thought or meditation to Scripture. Read Psalm 37:10

The Bible says that being absent from the body is to be present with The Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Yes, but his does NOT say that the lost are tormented alive forever in hell when they die. Obviously you have not given much thought or meditation to Scripture.

Since God stands in eternity and we walk in time and space, those who die face Judgment Day the moment they die.
No, according to the Bible, Jesus will judge everyone when He returns. Obviously you have not given much thought or meditation to Scripture.

Time only takes place in front of those who are subject to it. God is not subject to time, or time would be God, not The Lord. The smoke contains portions of the wood, as does the ash. Nothing has been taken out of existence. It has changed state, only. Some portions of the wood were turned into gasses and some were reduced to ash. Nothing has passed out of existence. The wood was made of chemicals, all of which still exist. The same is true for the bodies and souls of those who are sentenced to be tormented for ever and ever in the Lake of Fire: they will change state, for ever and ever.
Ashes are not conscious. The lake of fire is the second DEATH, not a torment sentence forever and ever. Obviously you have not given much thought or meditation to Scripture.

Obviously you have not given much thought or meditation to Scripture.
Yes, I have, but it is obvious that you have not. You haven't given one verse that says the wicked will go to hell when they die where they are tormented alive for all eternity while they are dead. Obviously you have not given much thought or meditation to Scripture.

You should learn how to walk in faith, since your fear (worry is fear) has torment and Perfect Love casts out ALL fear. If you were to walk in love you would no longer fear anyone, except The Lord.
My worry is FOR YOU, since you don't believe what the Bible says, but you believe the false doctrine invented in the dark ages. I walk in faith, but I can't walk in faith for you. I can only tell you what the Bible says. I can't make you believe it. I don't fear you, I fear for you, since you have been so easily deceived, and you completely reject the truth. You even twist my words, in order to change my concern for your well being into something bad.

Obviously you have not given much thought or meditation to Scripture.
 
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Timotheos

New member
Obviously you've never given much thought or meditation to Scripture.
You are incorrect.



Tim said:
There are a multitude of verses that all say the wicked will perish and will be no more as a result of their sins.
1
Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
This says destruction, not eternal torment.

2
Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

3
Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

4
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

5
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.

6
John 5:24, Jesus said
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.

7
John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

8
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

9
1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.

10
Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.
The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

11
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

12
Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

13
Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.


14
James 1:15
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.

15
James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.

16
2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.

17
2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Peter tells what will happen to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

18
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

19
Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

20
Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.

21
Revelation 2:11
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

22
Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

23
Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

24
Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

25
Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

The proof is written in large letters throughout the bible. After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

26
Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.

27
Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

28
Psalm 2:11-12
Serve the LORD with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,

29
Psalm 5:6
you destroy those who tell lies.

30
Psalm 9:3
My enemies turn back;
they stumble and perish before you.

31
Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

32
Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.

33
Psalm 21:9
When you appear for battle,
you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace.
The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath,
and his fire will consume them.

34
Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

35
Psalm 36:12
See how the evildoers lie fallen—
thrown down, not able to rise!

36
Psalm 37:1-2
Do not fret because of those who are evil
or be envious of those who do wrong;
for like the grass they will soon wither,
like green plants they will soon die away.

37
Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

38
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:
Though the LORD’s enemies are like the flowers of the field,
they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.

39
Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

40
Psalm 37:28
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

41
Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

42
Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

43
Malachi 4:1-3
For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.

44
Isaiah 66:16
For the LORD will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the LORD will be many.

45 and 46
Genesis 2:17 and 3:19
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die...
And to dust you shall return. (Genesis 5:5 Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.)

47
Psalm 49:12-14
But man in his pomp will not endure;
He is like the beasts that perish.
This is the way of those who are foolish,
And of those after them who approve their words.
As sheep they are appointed for Sheol;
Death shall be their shepherd;
And the upright shall rule over them in the morning,
And their form shall be for Sheol to consume
So that they have no habitation.

48
Psalm 50:22
Now consider this, you who forget God,
Or I will tear you in pieces, and there will be none to deliver.

49
Psalm 54:5
He will recompense the evil to my foes;
Destroy them in Your faithfulness.

50
Psalm 56:13
For You have delivered my soul from death,
Indeed my feet from stumbling,
So that I may walk before God
In the light of the living.

51
2 Corinthians 15-16
For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life.

52
for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2 Cor 3:6

53
2 Cor 7:10
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
 

Timotheos

New member
Great comeback.






NOT! :duh:

The thing is, obviously I have given a lot of thought and meditation to scripture. I didn't always though. I used to believe in ECT as you do. Then I studied scriptures and found that ECT is not supported by scripture at all. So unlike you, I abandoned the unbiblical teaching of ECT. But since you have obviously not given much thought to this, you haven't abandoned the false doctrine that God tortures his enemies forever in hell.
 

Zeke

Well-known member
tomlapalm, you said:

It is not that torment is for all time, it is just that time doesn't exist. (the clock doesn't move)

Spiritual death is torment

I'm not sure you grasp that your time in eternity has already begun, and it's not going to be fun.

For those of you raised in church who think you love Jesus, just remember this: Judas was closer than you'll ever be, and he was better off non-existent.

That is, in fact, most of us as well. We pretend to love a phantom, but it is self-deception. We don't know Jesus, and He won't miss any of us when we slide into the pit on the broad path that drains off the human race like a watershed.

He died for us, but only to protect his reputation. When we make our exit with the Devil, Christ will be relieved. Those who have managed actual love of God can say nothing to any of us that can help. They are who they are, and we are hardened like Pharaoh.

Stop the games. Look at your lives and your failures. Loving God is beyond each of us as it was Judas, and I don't see any Apostle John's or Paul's around.

The phrase is "given over."

Why do you continue as though you are not booked already in hotel Beelzebub?

Now you pretend time is going to stand still. You wish.

Reality is darkness. And when you face God, you will beg for relief from His presence.

Yea your demigod would need his ego stroked, its your myth enjoy the ride, but don't get all self righteous when others don't want to stroke your ghosts ego which you look at in the mirror every morning. Grcae and demigod love, Zeke.
 

Timotheos

New member
It really is just like talking to a parrot.
Apology accepted. I don't mind talking to you even you you talk like a parrot and never give the scripture behind your beliefs. I know that is merely because there is no scripture support for your belief in hell.
Yes, you meant that I am the parrot, but you are the one parroting the false belief in ECT. Here's the truth, God loves us and wants to rescue us from the wages of sin, which is death. That's why He sent his Son, so that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but will have eternal life instead.
 

Doormat

New member
Death ONLY relates to the physical and our meta-physical spirit/soul exists eternally, either IN our body as Eternal Life, or without our body as Eternal Punishment.

I'm surprised you don't see your position is illogical. See our discussion starting on page 64.
 

Timotheos

New member
mt 25:31-46

mt 18:23 (if the debt is not paid)

etc
Yes, that does prove that ECT is not biblical. Here's why.
In Matthew 25:46 it says some go to eternal life. They don't ALL go to eternal life. The others go to eternal punishment, but you can't tell from this verse what the eternal punishment is. It MIGHT be eternal conscious torment, but the verse doesn't say that. It might be death, which is also punishment, and also eternal, but the verse doesn't say that either. However, Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death, so we know that the punishment is death. Jesus told another parable, the parable of the weeds, Matt 13:24-30. Notice that the weeds are burned up. Jesus explains this parable in Matt 13:36-43. Jesus says just as weeds are burned up by the harvesters, the unrighteous will be burned up at the end of the age. He doesn't keep the weeds or the unrighteous around forever tormenting them. Look at Matthew 7:13-14. Jesus says the gate and the road is wide that leads to destruction. Jesus says exactly what the punishment is, it is destruction, not eternal conscious torment. Jesus also says what the opposite of destruction is, "narrow is the road that leads to LIFE". There are two possible fates, eternal life, or destruction which is death. Death is the condition of not being alive, not having life.

Mr. Aimiel doesn't understand this yet.
 
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