THE LORDS DAY CONTROVERSY?

[clefty]

Sloppy. Yes to the first part. The second is rather what you hope/fear I am. :nono:

hope or fear? For pages and pages now you claim the Law abolished at worst and at best changed to omit the ceremonial laws and the Sabbath which is one of the 10 you keep now everyday or something...since it apparently DOES matter but NOT the way it is actually written...

You thus stand with the jews that claimed Stephen taught Jesus changed the customs Moses delivered which Luke clearly states is a bunch of FALSE WITNESSES set up to stir up the people...Had Stephen been teaching Jesus changed the customs Moses delivered it would be a TRUE WITNESS Acts 6:13-14

And now here again you stand with the Jewish council which claimed Paul was teaching the same jewish false witness fables...that the law was abolished...

You simply don't listen and work up strawmen to knock down.

nope...you said the Law was abolished...you sir stand with the jews accusing Paul...twisting his writing into “freeing us from bondage” or something more about liberty or something something NOT FOR ME...but grace something...

Your other threads show you are enamored with being a Jew, at least grafted in.

inner jew circumcised heart citizen of the commonwealth of Israel...no longer foreigner

Such will prevent you from grasping and understanding the contexts of Romans, Galatians, Ephesians and in a couple of points, Hebrews as well.

so did you like the PHOTO I gave of the very thing you asked was abolished is NOT the Law? Were you able to read the ordinance with your greek? Not me...but higher authorities did ya dig?

There are and were two ways to deal with sin: 1) avoid it (not a bad plan at all) and 2) confess, for forgiveness and present something to make it right.

After the Cross 1) Avoid it (still a good plan but you now have ALL of those laws written on your heart, guess which one doesn't feel spiritually compelling in the same exact manner that you want to observe it?) 2) Present yourself, your bodies to Him. Some advocate a need to ask forgiveness, and others, in faith, bank on the mercies and work of Christ in dealing with sin.

Stop distracting and filibustering...I know what to do with sin...the issue here is we are after what YOU define as breaking the Law and which Law or if there even is a Law...I stand with Paul the Law is Holy and good and Sabbath remains...you stand with the Jews the false witness he taught the Law was abolished...despite Him taking a vow to PROVE He walked uprightly...

FOCUS...dont filibuster

Given to exaggeration. Why? Because you like lifting up strawmen and knocking them down. It is the mark of someone who 'wants to teach so badly.'

are AD HOMs all you got left? Me exaggerate? You claim He broke the Sabbath...which is a sin...but no more Sabbath right?

You claim both Galatians and Romans clearly state the Law was abolished...which would have been great evidence at a trial of Paul about that very thing...imagine all your markings and highlighted parts on EXHIBIT A...but finding NO FAULT they let Paul “go”

Don't look to me, look to Christ.

You mean the Lord of the Sabbath that had them pray that the Sabbath be kept into the future and NOT that they be preserved in future times of trouble or that the be temple spared or a RAPTURE? Matt 24:20

Is that the Christ we look at? Or do you see one that abolished the law at the cross...never mind His death ACTIVATED the new covenant NOW in power which He had demonstrated and taught...as John put it “Live IN ME live LIKE ME” 1 John 2:6

Banter as you offer is of no value whatsoever. It is why I've been only presenting scriptures. You simply do not need to be indulged.

“Here are they that do NOT keep the Commandments as they are abolished and yet have the Faith OF Yahushua except for what He abolished” Lon 14:12

Context? Jews. You are so enamored, your eyes are blinded to two covenants. Count them, at LEAST two covenants. You are stuck in the one called "Law."

LOL...YOU stand with JEWS their Jesus changed the Law false witness...

I stand with Paul IN HIM there are no more jews...just inner jews and circumcised hearts

And yes there are MORE than two covenants...faith first but then obedience FUNdemental in all...the New One has His LAW written on the hearts and minds...and is demonstrated by His Son...before He died signing it with His blood and Sealing it with His death...and THE FIRST FULL DAY OF THE NEW COVENANT AGE WAS A SABBATH

Just like the first full day of the ADAMIC covenant...nifty eh coach? Don’t break game rules that work...

They did, had him beheaded eventually. Because he broke a law? :nono:

LOL oh man coach you sure we playing the same game even?

NERO executed him a Roman way as he was a christian roman citizen...something about a fire Christians started.

Pharisees backed off as well they found NOTHING WRONG...I guess they agreed Sabbath was abolished and all could eat cats bats and wombats...

In fact in Rome they had heard nothing about Paul’s blaspheming but HAD heard about the sect known as the Way which believed in the resurrection and were still zealous for the Law kept the Sabbath and kosher probably because there were MYRIADS of them Acts 21:20....but Jews in Rome had NOT heard of him his “Sabbath is done away with...we can eat cats bats and wombats finally” Acts 28:21-22

Even they weren't keeping it. Paul said so. Jesus said so.

we have all fallen short...all have sinned...Paul said circumcised still failed Jesus said “DO WHAT THEY TEACH FROM MOSES’ SEAT” just not what they do...cuz they failed too

So do you DO as Jesus instructed...what they teach from Moses’ seat? NO

What happens is (like here) someone uses the Law to lord it over another. It is great for people who want to be gurus (instead of Christ being the Only between God and man).

Which christ? Yours that abolished the Law or Mine that repeated follow Me...Love AS I loved...DO My Father’s will...?

That's enough. Your fragile feelings are hurt when someone clips you, but you are too long winded with nothing really substantial. Get used to it.

Let me know if you can read the ordinance in that photo of what was actually abolished Eph 2:15 and NOT the Law.

None so blind as one who WILL not see...

None so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsly believe they are free...

I however am a slave to Him His ways...His yoke is easy though

1 John 2:6 You say you abide IN Him live LIKE Him...17 he who does the will of Yah abides forever...5:3 For this is the love of Yah that we keep His commandments and His commandments are NOT burdensome.

Note the Law of Yah is not abolished nor is it called His Son’s “revised new and improved upgraded Law”...

 

[clefty]

Ah. "Other" makes so much sense now. We Protestants, Reformed, MAD, Evangelical, think otherwise:

you missed the ones that taught you yours...Roman Catholic and Easter Orthodox

Peer pressure is a real thing coach...can ruin the team...and the game...

Romans 6:13Do not present the parts of your body to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and present the parts of your body to Him as instruments of righteousness.

what is the standard of measurement here? Abolished Law...His Law...His Son’s Law...Muslim Law?

14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

under grace because the LAW REMAINS...no need for grace is the Law was done away with...

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law, but under grace? Certainly not!

This is the same Certainly not that faith does not void the Law Romans 3:31

but dont stop there coach...play book keeps going...

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? (Again...According to what standard? How do we know sin?)

17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were committed. (A Doctrine of NO MORE SABBATHS? Eat cat bats and wombats?)

18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. (Again what standard determines sin and righteousness...it remains until judgement day)

19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.( what is opposite lawlessness? Lawfulness...what is holiness? According to?)

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.(no obligations no standard for judgement)

21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. (Sounds like lawfulness to me...even a citizen of some Holy nation or something)

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.( wages to the Law which obviously was NOT abolished but remains until judgement day)

2 Corinthians 3:2Co 3:6 who also has made us able ministers of the new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit makes alive.

yup new covenant with the same law...or does the Spirit lead into another law...differing the Father’s Will...

2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, having been engraved in letters in stone was with glory (so that the sons of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses because of the glory of his face), which was being done away;

even State Law with its “dont kill” becomes a ministry of death if I violate it...the OT had glory a fading glory not the Law itself

2Co 3:8 shall not the ministry of the Spirit be with more glory?

of course as the Spirit regenerates us into MORE LIKE HIM...living His Way...

2Corinthians 3:11 For if that which has been done away was glorious, much more that which remains is glorious.

of course IN HIM Loving as He loved fulfills the Law...and no fulfill doe NOT destroy it...

There’s more coach:

2 Corinthians 3

14But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. (NOTICE IT IS THE VEIL THAT IS TAKEN AWAY NOT THE OLD TESTAMENT)

15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. (Too many christians still veil themselves from the OT)

16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. (NOT THE LAW it remains)

17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.(AS IN HIM WE ARE RIGHTEOUS MORE AND MORE LIKE HIM HIS LOVE WHICH FULFILLS THE LAW)

18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. (TRANSFORMED INTO THE SAME IMAGE not Sabbath keeping vs a NOT Sabbath keeping images)

You cannot win against Paul. Why would anyone try? Scripture is true and Clefty is out in the cold.

Cold out here? Naaaaawww...it’s nice out here with Paul...cuz when jews and christians like you bare false witness with claims that Yahushua changed the customs Moses delivered actually LOSE TO PAUL...they throw him out into the cold...

 

[KerimF]

... still curious if you could re present your love/trust thingy with examples even.

First, I trust, to no limit, God (the unified Will/Power of the Father in Heaven and Jesus by the Holy Spirit). I do it by being sure that 'any' happening in the world is important in God's plan of His Creation.
Don't you see how hard for someone to love God this way?

This love/trust contradicts the crucial instincts of survival which guide the human living body and are embedded in its living cells also by God.
This is why, in case one can trust fully his Creator, Jesus added "And take care of whoever you may meet as you do to yourself" (sorry, I don't have holy words to observe as good believers in all religions are supposed to have).

So it is out of question for me to judge anyone (or even to blame him seriously) since I don't use judging and/or condemning myself
After all, judging someone is actually judging his Creator... my Creator!
I mean; how could I trust/love, to no limit, my Creator and don't mind to judge Him at the same time for creating free cruel humans

But God solved this dilemma by allowing some men to apply, even in God's name, a certain justice (though its rules depend on the region; besides the human instincts) to rule/control the peoples of the 'material' world.

Anyway, let us be rational. No matter how many examples, I will give you, they will be always seen, at best and not only by you, as mere anecdotal personal experiences, nothing else.

We like it or not, while every human can perceive the material realm, not every human can perceive the spiritual one... Love's realm... God's Realm... for which Jesus came to reveal it.
What did Nicodemus, the biblically well-educated Jew, get from Jesus message? Not much I guess and I am not better than my teacher, Jesus, for sure

 

[clefty]

First, I trust, to no limit, God (the unified Will/Power of the Father in Heaven and Jesus by the Holy Spirit). I do it by being sure that 'any' happening in the world is important in God's plan of His Creation.
Don't you see how hard for someone to love God this way?

This love/trust contradicts the crucial instincts of survival which guide the human living body and are embedded in its living cells also by God.
This is why, in case one can trust fully his Creator, Jesus added "And take care of whoever you may meet as you do to yourself" (sorry, I don't have holy words to observe as good believers in all religions are supposed to have).

So it is out of question for me to judge anyone (or even to blame him seriously) since I don't use judging and/or condemning myself
After all, judging someone is actually judging his Creator... my Creator!
I mean; how could I trust/love, to no limit, my Creator and don't mind to judge Him at the same time for creating free cruel humans

But God solved this dilemma by allowing some men to apply, even in God's name, a certain justice (though its rules depend on the region; besides the human instincts) to rule/control the peoples of the 'material' world.

Anyway, let us be rational. No matter how many examples, I will give you, they will be always seen, at best and not only by you, as mere anecdotal personal experiences, nothing else.

We like it or not, while every human can perceive the material realm, not every human can perceive the spiritual one... Love's realm... God's Realm... for which Jesus came to reveal it.
What did Nicodemus, the biblically well-educated Jew, get from Jesus message? Not much I guess and I am not better than my teacher, Jesus, for sure

Wow ok...somewhere in all that I saw you say Jesus came to reveal Love’s realm...God’s realm...but earlier you said it is no rules...

So is Love’s realm/God’s realm...His kingdom...LAWLESS? How is our love His and not like the world’s love or is the way the world loves enough...give peace a chance right? You know whose realm the world is now right?

Everybody knows do not kill or steal or lie or adultery so this should be easy right?

 

[KerimF]

Wow ok...somewhere in all that I saw you say Jesus came to reveal Love’s realm...God’s realm...but earlier you said it is no rules...
So is Love’s realm/God’s realm...His kingdom...LAWLESS? How is our love His and not like the world’s love or is the way the world loves enough...give peace a chance right? You know whose realm the world is now right?
Everybody knows do not kill or steal or lie or adultery so this should be easy right?

Let us imagine a man says to his bride:
"You are a lucky woman. My father whom I used obeying always promised me to inherit all he had if I obey him and I accept to love and take care very well of my wife, you."
"Aren't you proud of me and my love now?"

I mean; anything could be commanded (as in an army) but loving/trusting someone to no limit.
So, yes, my God's Kingdom, unlike all earthly ones, is lawless
After all, you know better than I that Jesus is... not of this world... nor His Kingdom.

But, I also understand that many people in the world have their good reasons not to even 'imagine' a person or God living in a lawless realm of free-will love. For example, as you know, the today's Jews and Muslims are supposed to see God as the Supernatural Supreme Ruler and Judge (while they understand love, the one revealed by Jesus, as obey, worship and glorify).

 

[clefty]

Let us imagine a man says to his bride:
"You are a lucky woman. My father whom I used obeying always promised me to inherit all he had if I obey him and I accept to love and take care very well of my wife, you."
"Aren't you proud of me and my love now?"

I mean; anything could be commanded (as in an army) but loving/trusting someone to no limit.
So, yes, my God's Kingdom, unlike all earthly ones, is lawless
After all, you know better than I that Jesus is... not of this world... nor His Kingdom.

But, I also understand that many people in the world have their good reasons not to even 'imagine' a person or God living in a lawless realm of free-will love. For example, as you know, the today's Jews and Muslims are supposed to see God as the Supernatural Supreme Ruler and Judge (while they understand love, the one revealed by Jesus, as obey, worship and glorify).

Hmmmm ok so to you His kingdom is lawless then...His love without rules...

Your rebellion is complete and your disdain for rules noted.

Demonstrated in your logic does your “anarchy” also spread to physical laws... biological laws...et al...mathematics as well?

or just to His teaching of “do My Father’s will ...keep the commandments”

 

[Gary K]

Days do not change. "Saturday" changes. Jews merely regarded a succession of 7 days. When the Julian calendar was adopted, those who did not convert didn't agree it was suddenly established, year to year, when they would celebrate any given day. The Julian calendar was arbitrary.

Cut to the chase: Do you believe that one must celebrate 'every Saturday' to keep a Sabbath? If not, the conversation doesn't matter. One of us just gets this math question wrong.

So, what is the basis of your argument today: What does it accomplish for Christ? Such is a lot better than arguing over trivialities. It is normally the Saturday worshipper that troubles the rest of the body with such concerns. Where is your position? Thanks.

I don't know about you, but I use the Gregorian calendar. Julian calendar usage went away in the US more than 250 years ago.

I just have to shake my head at your response. I guess you don't think even God knows which is the seventh day of the week. That's a really small god.

Genesis 16: 14 And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing, as small as the hoar frost on the ground.
15 And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the Lord hath given you to eat.^*n2
16 ¶This is the thing which the Lord hath commanded, Gather of it every man according to his eating, an omer for every man, according to the number of your persons; take ye every man for them which are in his tents.^*n3*n4
17 And the children of Israel did so, and gathered, some more, some less.
18 And when they did mete it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating.
19 And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning.
20 Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them.
21 And they gathered it every morning, every man according to his eating: and when the sun waxed hot, it melted.
22 ¶And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.
23 And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.
25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the Lord: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.
27 ¶And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.

So, God told the Israelites to gather enough manna for only one day on the first through the fifth day of the week, but on the sixth day of the week to gather twice as much. If they gathered more than they needed in days 1 through 5 the manna rotted and became wormy. When they gathered twice as much on the sixth day of the week it lasted overnight without spoiling so that they had food to eat on the seventh day of the week.

As the Jews have kept the same weekly cycle throughout time since then to now, and their seventh day aligns with Saturday the chain is complete. If you're going to argue that God doesn't know which day of the week is the seventh day, I have to admit I will be shocked.

I have a question for you. On which days of the week is it OK with God if you sleep with your neighbors wife? Which day of the week is it that God has said that immorality is meaningless? God put the 4th commandment in the 10 commandments, which is God's moral law. Thus the Sabbath is tied directly to morality. So, if every Sabbath isn't holy then God must have given an OK for breaking the rest of his commandments too. For the the Bible says whoever violates one commandment has broken them all. Where is that OK from God to be immoral one day a week? I've never seen anything like it in the Bible.

And why is the Sabbath commandment in God's moral law?

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

We all know that only God can make us righteous. Only God can sanctify us. And God says He gave the Sabbath as sign that those who keep it are acknowledging that God is the one who is making us holy. Therefore, the Sabbath has huge moral implications. It is the sign that we bow to our heavenly Father and acknowledge that it is He that makes us holy. That it is He changes us and creates a new heart and a new mind. It is God that makes us new creatures. It's the sign that we are a new creation in Him.

 

[KerimF]

Demonstrated in your logic does your “anarchy” also spread to physical laws... biological laws...et al...mathematics as well?
or just to His teaching of “do My Father’s will ...keep the commandments”

Any act done without true love will end up as everything else in the physical world to the state of void, the state before Creation.

The Will of my Father in Heaven is to be perfect as Him (and Jesus) by living his lawless love towards all others, even towards those who are created to play my enemies.

 

[clefty]

Any act done without true love will end up as everything else in the physical world to the state of void, the state before Creation.

some would see the condition you placed here which is a law at least a rule...if this then that...

here you have it as outside of true love all acts turn to void...that not only is a rule but one you stole from a lawful King an Immortal One at that which means there is no void except where and when He wills it

You stole His conditions and misrepresent them as true lawless love

Why must things outside of true love become void? To retain harmony and order. That is the law. He is NOT an author of confusion He creates what is good it has a standard.

Acts outside of true love COULD be forgiven sustained continued with patience and yet remain outside true love...

that anarchy would spread until all order was chaos for accepting and tolerating and long suffering all that which is outside of true love by that which is true love...

no need for it to go to VOID

no law so no consequence so no order

The Will of my Father in Heaven is to be perfect as Him (and Jesus) by living his lawless love towards all others, even towards those who are created to play my enemies.

even He does not love His enemies unconditionally forever as He is not an author of confusion and random chaos but order heirarchy justice beauty harmony due process and more...

You would have Him so love the world that whosoever believes in Him (or not) shall live and not perish continue to live in a love without laws or rules

who is an enemy. Who a friend? Who can tell? No consequence for either...no rule or guide but liberty? Freedom?

sounds horrible

Instead He gave His Son by His Own immutable eternal Law His character demonstrated...that and ALL He gave is Love...

His disciplining corrections too

And yes a final void for those rebellious and rejecting that deny His Love has Law

Grace even to them...

Who knows the Law is grace? Provides grace?!

The lawkeepers...

 

[clefty]

Therefore, the Sabbath has huge moral implications. It is the sign that we bow to our heavenly Father and acknowledge that it is He that makes us holy. That it is He changes us and creates a new heart and a new mind. It is God that makes us new creatures. It's the sign that we are a new creation in Him.

Nice.

The attempt to reject His gift to man...a day off...seems endless.

As if we ever did anything to earn it. Or make it Holy to earn our own holiness.

Adam didn't even put in a full week to get one...

 

[KerimF]

Instead He gave His Son by His Own law...that is Love

Truth be said, I heard these words, or alike, zillion of times. But now, I will take the opportunity to ask you, if you don't mind:
How do you understand the word 'Son" in the expression 'Son of God'?
Thank you.

I ask you this, because my Muslim friends were told that Christians see in Jesus a baby (who became adult) whose father is the Christian God.

 

[clefty]

Truth be said, I heard these words, or alike, zillion of times.

what? that He HAD to sacrifice His Son because it was the LAW? Hmmm and yet you maintain His kingdom is lawless...His Love with no rules...

I mean I hear all the time God can do anything He wants...He is all powerful...and yet...He HAD to send His Son BECAUSE He cant do whatever whenever once He wishes to LOVE...

see? He knew Love was about order harmony and justice...Love was about choice and consequences...Love of course has limits and boundaries and is about discipline and restraint and sacrifice and PROMISE and OATH...

He is an all powerful God but is He WORTHY of free willing LOVE...in short was He a good God? Can we trust Him?

That’s when things get relational and He begins to reveal Himself more fully...He HAS TOO...mysteries do not help relationships...

He certainly revealed Himself more fully at the fall when NEVER BEFORE had the UNIVERSE seen HIM KILL AN INNOCENT LIFE...SHED BLOOD...and break His own Law...

Of course never before had the universe seen His mercy and grace this way...ADAM AND EVE DESERVED TO DIE and on the spot...instead He covered them...after blood was shed by HIM

is WHY there must be order...universe cant have God ALMIGHTY go around killing everybody everything when love is not reciprocated to Him His true love way...is why LAW...random killing and restarts and do overs would not develop TRUST...and that would be AGAINST HIS OWN LAW and ORDER and character...despite His jealousy...

Hope you reconsider your conclusion His kingdom is lawless and love with no rules...

A no rules love could not demand JUSTICE...His Son...

But now, I will take the opportunity to ask you, if you don't mind:
How do you understand the word 'Son" in the expression 'Son of God'?
Thank you.

those that DO the will of My Father are my brothers He said...so we can be a son of God too...we are gods He said...just cant live forever...now...but soon we will be restored not Immortal but putting on immortality still dependant on the tree of life...but living forever...

That He is the first born and only born of the Almighty One is different...My only begotten Son...so in order for a Father to be one He must have a child...there was a time there Was ONLY ONE...”I AM ONE there is NO other...No other savior but Me “ but then at some point there was His Son...which begotten in the Spirit was sent to be born of the Flesh that we who are born in the flesh may also be begotten in the Spirit...and live forever...dependant on the tree of life NOT immortal...there is ONLY ONE immortal...fear Him that can and will destroy souls...

I ask you this, because my Muslim friends were told that Christians see in Jesus a baby (who became adult) whose father is the Christian God.

well yes...just like His Spirit entered the donkey and made it speak...or a bronze snake heal...so too can His Spirit impregnate a woman...no miracle there...

And as long as His Spirit was resident in that donkey it would live and be useful to bring glory to Yah...but I digress...



So because the Father shed the first blood in the garden...broke His own Law...He HAD to “pay” as the wages of sin is death...so it makes sense that He sends “His own blood” to pay...born of a human,raised, lived, tempted as we are, and overcame...with the Spirit...

Muslims (and Jews actually) won’t grasp why the almighty One would limit Himself...would reduce Himself...would allow Himself to become bound to SPACE and TIME...

and then even as flesh and blood...to be shed...as Isa did...

Muslims don’t grasp that Love is free will + earned trust...us of Him and He of us...but now having demonstrated the extent of His love...how can we not trust?

Good questions...hope it helps...say hi to those muslims...teach them about Yah...His Law and Love...a worthy Just King...muslims happily like authority and rules...LOL

hope you might too...at least His

 

[KerimF]

Sorry Clefty, it seems you like complicating things, if not your life as well

Not in vain, Jesus simplified all teachings on the Bible using two important/crucial advices (sorry, commandments) only.

But to live the divine love in the world's jungle, Jesus came to also open my eyes and let me see/discover many important natural truths (this is a big topic) that no man dares revealing openly. So, thanks to Jesus, I was able walking in the world's jungle under the Light of Knowledge without being confused or having fear of any sort.

I like adding that I feel somehow embarrassed because you write long posts full of interesting ideas and references while I write a few lines only.

 

[God's Truth]

Sorry Clefty, it seems you like complicating things, if not your life as well

Not in vain, Jesus simplified all teachings on the Bible using two important/crucial advices (sorry, commandments) only.

But to live the divine love in the world's jungle, Jesus came to also open my eyes and let me see/discover many important natural truths (this is a big topic) that no man dares revealing openly. So, thanks to Jesus, I was able walking in the world's jungle under the Light of Knowledge without being confused or having fear of any sort.

I like adding that I feel somehow embarrassed because you write long posts full of interesting ideas and references while I write a few lines only.

What do you mean"that no man dares revealing openly."?

 

[Lon]

I don't know about you, but I use the Gregorian calendar. Julian calendar usage went away in the US more than 250 years ago.

I just have to shake my head at your response. I guess you don't think even God knows which is the seventh day of the week. That's a really small god.

There is talk we may lose the Gregorian as well, soon to keep better track of the seasons.

You can claim a 'small god' all you like. Hardly any Christian believes as the Seventh Day Adventists who keep Saturday. You've yet to commit. Why? Could it possibly be, because you know it cannot be Saturday? You are making assumptions, important to you, in which these other things do not follow, just the way you want to demand them to be.

So, God told the Israelites to gather enough manna for only one day on the first through the fifth day of the week, but on the sixth day of the week to gather twice as much. If they gathered more than they needed in days 1 through 5 the manna rotted and became wormy. When they gathered twice as much on the sixth day of the week it lasted overnight without spoiling so that they had food to eat on the seventh day of the week.

As the Jews have kept the same weekly cycle throughout time since then to now, and their seventh day aligns with Saturday the chain is complete. If you're going to argue that God doesn't know which day of the week is the seventh day, I have to admit I will be shocked.

:doh: Because they didn't care about a specific day, BUT the succession of 7 days. It was convenient, nothing you imagine is somehow 'magical Saturday.' It is a fairy tale.

I have a question for you. On which days of the week is it OK with God if you sleep with your neighbors wife? Which day of the week is it that God has said that immorality is meaningless? God put the 4th commandment in the 10 commandments, which is God's moral law. Thus the Sabbath is tied directly to morality. So, if every Sabbath isn't holy then God must have given an OK for breaking the rest of his commandments too. For the the Bible says whoever violates one commandment has broken them all. Where is that OK from God to be immoral one day a week? I've never seen anything like it in the Bible.

Have you not read any of the Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, and Hebrews I and others' have posted?

And why is the Sabbath commandment in God's moral law?

That is the question, isn't it? My answer isn't likely your's. It was given to remind Israel to be in fellowship and prayer with God. They worked hard 6 days, hardly a moments rest. The Sabbath gave them a day, not to 'treat' their human bodies to something nice, but to take a day and build community and fellowship around God their Creator. Thus, Jesus Christ IS the fulfillment of the Sabbath because now, every day,"whatever we do, in word or deed, do all to the glory of God."

A fellowship with God, living within, is "making every effort to enter that rest."

If you don't grasp this, there is not much anyone can do for you. You'll be stuck trying to follow God in your flesh. This troubles me. It is completely wrong.

We all know that only God can make us righteous. Only God can sanctify us. And God says He gave the Sabbath as sign that those who keep it are acknowledging that God is the one who is making us holy. Therefore, the Sabbath has huge moral implications. It is the sign that we bow to our heavenly Father and acknowledge that it is He that makes us holy. That it is He changes us and creates a new heart and a new mind. It is God that makes us new creatures. It's the sign that we are a new creation in Him.

I disagree. Your 'breaking the other laws' example breaks down, and you both know it. You already know Christ fulfilled many observances, you two are simply picking and choosing which ones you'll observe and such a thing is wrought, I believe, by a fleshly understanding. I cannot do anything BUT post scriptures. They really are this clear but it seems flesh can never grasp it. I pray ears that hear and eyes that see. I can but plant and argue this, Only God can give increase. -Lon

 

[Lon]

you missed the ones that taught you yours...Roman Catholic and Easter Orthodox

Peer pressure is a real thing coach...can ruin the team...and the game...

:nono: You really don't know your stuff. Protestants are protestants over this particular. You, actually, side with Catholics on the Law, more than I.

what is the standard of measurement here? Abolished Law...His Law...His Son’s Law...Muslim Law?

under grace because the LAW REMAINS...no need for grace is the Law was done away with...

This is the same Certainly not that faith does not void the Law Romans 3:31

Correct, which is why scripture says you are Judaised. You are EITHER of the law, or grace.

but dont stop there coach...play book keeps going...

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? (Again...According to what standard? How do we know sin?)

Right, teaches you, you've already broken it. That is its only purpose now. "Salvation is found in no other..." Further, "He is able to keep, that which He has promised, until that day." You've changed that to "...but YOU need to keep it, until that day." :nono:

If scripture cannot change you, coming from our Lord God, then I've no hope. This debate lives and dies upon knowing one's Bible and listening intently to Him. There is nothing left for me if scriptures do not suffice. You can go on, ahead, and think arrogantly you are all that, or you can humble yourself under His mighty hand. At least take a few moments and humble yourself before Him. ASK what He'd say to you. He indeed, has been clear in His scriptures and it is mine, and ALL of Protestants, evangelicals, etc. position, that you are wrong. Your gauntlet is thrown in an incredible minority audacity. One WOULD think you'd rethink that. I rethink every point I happen to disagree with the majority upon, simply because I don't think God shows favoritism. The VERY FEW remnant is poor theology.

 

[clefty]

Sorry Clefty, it seems you like complicating things,

lol...aaah yes I do like to talk about these things...especially if I think one is earnest and sincere...sadly Solomon was correct in that the writing of books there is NO END...Eccl 12:12 but since you stubbornly reject how he concludes the matter I fancy another book is necessary...but yes I do ramble...your questions on the Son of Yah are not flippant as I sense you have been around and are quite clever in your NO RULES love and Yah’s LAWLESS kingdom

if not your life as well

there you are wrong...it is quite simple and mapped out for me...merely do as Solomon concluded the matter Eccl 12:13...He was a wise man you know...but it is true all this is NOT accepted by everyone...is WHY the path is so narrow...at least I get a day off though...and more so much more

Not in vain, Jesus simplified all teachings on the Bible using two important/crucial advices (sorry, commandments) only.

well SEE? That is progress...LOL...indeed He did...even offered His lifestyle as a model to follow...Follow me...Love AS I DO...just as...you do realize that both those advices are already in the OT yes? But there HE was to finally demonstrate them...so if it is merely two advices why indeed is it so complicated?

I mean it’s all right there...

Love Yah are the first four advices...1) know Yah is One God there is no other (your lawless kingdom god) 2) make no image lest you worship it (your image of a no rules Jesus love) 3) don’t use Yah’s name without intent and 4) remember what He made Holy in time

The other 6 are related to loving each other 5) honor elders 6)dont murder 7) dont commit adultery 8) dont steal 9) dont lie 10) dont covet

There that simple...there is more about the administration of these throughout the year but only if you want to because you want to be His slave...to represent Him and no other to the world...

Please notice that the love your neighbor 6 advices are what even pagans believe...is WHY the first four about Yah are so important...they specify Him and Him alone...no other god has given mankind these...not even Allah...

But to live the divine love in the world's jungle,

right we have a map...a description of what it means to be where I AM...this world is NOT our home...we are peculiar set aside distinct as is Our God Yah...waiting for His kingdom on earth as it is in heaven...is why we practice now to get ready

You do realize the 10 actually describe what life was like as intended by Him BEFORE THE FALL right...where I AM and what life will look like when we are restored TO where I AM...

As where I AM there is no stealing no need to...where I AM there is no killing no desire to where I AM there is no lying just truth...where I AM there is no adultery just faithfulness etc...

so in a sense your NO COMMANDMENTS is point on...HE merely needs you to practice what it is naturally like living where I AM...because it is HOLY there...as we are to be...

Jesus came to also open my eyes and let me see/discover many important natural truths (this is a big topic)

yup...good...and yes a many books topic...

that no man dares revealing openly.

hmmm hope you are NOT gnostic/hiding your light before men...jews did/do that...He came to stop that and reveal it to all...alas it still remains a narrow path though...

So, thanks to Jesus, I was able walking in the world's jungle under the Light of Knowledge without being confused or having fear of any sort.

and then you came to TOL...lol

I like adding that I feel somehow embarrassed because you write long posts full of interesting ideas and references while I write a few lines only.

no worries mate...couldnt write a lick of French or Arabic...or talk to them...even if I knew their languages...lol...that’s a joke...as in my experience we always end up arguing...lol

Something about free no rules love and slaves to Allah...but I digress...

Anyway this morning begins my day of rest after 6 crazy work daze...hope you are rested and blessed somehow as I am...in this temple of time for healing and good works...

as they say Shabbat shalom...they got it from Him....lol

HalleluYah

 

[KerimF]

Anyway this morning begins my day of rest after 6 crazy work daze...hope you are rested and blessed somehow as I am...in this temple of time for healing and good works...
as they say Shabbat shalom...they got it from Him....lol
HalleluYah

It is good knowing you are fine and doing well. And it seems you like helping others to also know how to be fine.

I joined TOL because I have more free time lately after my private business was somehow paralyzed due to the world’s global chaos that usually precedes what is planned to be worse.

My problem is that I can’t see myself playing, by my own will, in any master/slave game; as a master or a slave (obedient follower).

And, it is not easy for many people around the world imagining a realm in which there are neither masters nor slaves/followers.
So the best I can do is to wish... you will be fine always in your Realm while I feed my soul with the joy of living God’s Love towards all others in the Realm which I had the chance to perceive... the Love’s Lawless Realm ... Shabbat shalom.

 

[KerimF]

What do you mean "that no man dares revealing openly."?

I meant the truths about 'Life Reality' which I didn't hear of from anyone but Jesus Christ and for which the world's justice condemned Him to death.

So even in our day, if someone repeats some sayings of Jesus openly (before the world via an international TV channel, for example) as clearly as Jesus does on the Gospel, the world's justice (said of God or else) will not let him live for more than a couple of days.

Fortunately, all Christian preachers who are allowed to address the world via international channels (as the top politicians of the most powerful systems do) know this truth and know also how to be on the safe side. Every Christian preacher just needs focusing on any teaching, he chooses, on the Bible excluding a few natural truths revealed by Jesus.

Truth be said, I expected your question. From what I hear from you, Jesus, to you as to many others, came just to remind the world of what was revealed already on the Old Testament and not to reveal and teach anything new which is very important for some people (as me) to know. I mean; whatever I learnt from Jesus sayings and cannot be found elsewhere on the bible, it would be considered as a personal opinion only. So if someone couldn't get a truth 'directly' from my all-knowledge teacher, Jesus (as I did) how could he get it from me?!

 

[clefty]

It is good knowing you are fine and doing well. And it seems you like helping others to also know how to be fine.

thanks...not sure I am helping...not many people picking up what I am putting down...oh well...here to learn I guess...

I joined TOL because I have more free time lately after my private business was somehow paralyzed due to the world’s global chaos

good to have you...sorry for the business hits...had a middle manager boss commit suicide here this week...people not handling the isolation and the unknown well...

that usually precedes what is planned to be worse.

so you know eh? Good...times for prayer and discernment...or?

My problem is that I can’t see myself playing, by my own will, in any master/slave game; as a master or a slave (obedient follower).

good for you...I got that from you early on...trust being a key factor...that thinking independence made you an entrepreneur even...stay strong

And, it is not easy for many people around the world imagining a realm in which there are neither masters nor slaves/followers.

true...this republic was the closest thing...the protestant “we the people” masterpiece...perhaps some utopias and kibbutzes...but our counter reformation enemies not able to change the system of “we the people” then changed/corrupted the people of this republic...changing them to chase equality democracy and materialism...

the Rev 13 dragon speaking lamb now brings worship to the first beast...as the pendulum swings back

So the best I can do is to wish... you will be fine always in your Realm while I feed my soul with the joy of living God’s Love towards all others in the Realm which I had the chance to perceive...

you remind me of the ancient alchemists attempting gold from common metals...please keep us posted to chart your progress...

the Love’s Lawless Realm ... Shabbat shalom.

thanks...funny you should mention it but for me Shabbat is only from One form of Love...and Shalom is from its Law...

thanks again however for the well wishes and sentiments...

May He continue to lead...